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As this hurts no one, I see absolutely no reason to oppose this idea.

 

If we get a specific news page, I think that makes the announcement on the main page obsolete. So if this was implemented, that could be rid of, and those who mentioned 'squishing' would also have their problem solved. Best case, there'd be some indicator over the News title to let you know something new was posted. It would disappear once you'd clicked the page.

Another option would be if it was possible to have a nice-sized pop-up appear when you hover over the news announcements that would show you what was going on, instead of a full page.

 

Anyone remember what polls looked like? I can't recall now, but I'm fairly certain there was some sort of notification when a new one was posted, so some notification of the news page being updated should work perfectly fine.

 

If there was some way to link that when TJ posted on the forum, it also appeared on site (which seems possible since I would think the announcements works somehow like that), then that would also be best, so as to be easiest on TJ.

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I agree with that as well. Maybe you could elaborate why this is so to those who simply fail to read my posts and argue single points all over?

 

I don't understand which part you want me to elaborate on?

 

I agree with Eef that important information regarding the site should be ON THE SITE. I think this is the sticking point:

 

To me, the forums ARE a part of the site, as valid (or even more so) as the thuwed page, the wilderness, the graveyard.

 

I DISAGREE that the forums are part of the main site. I believe that the forums are entirely separate, and that the important news should therefore be available on the site itself for those who do not wish to visit the forum. There is no way around this. Our views on the status of the forum in regards to the main site are incompatible, and yet fundamental parts of our respective opinions. So, agree to disagree.

 

As I said before I believe we should make it possible to avoid the forums entirely without missing out on important information. It benefits everyone, and I can't see any reason why it would actually be a bad thing.

 

EDIT: I've been envisaging a little note in the main cave, like we had for the Halloween event, that links to the news page and then disappears once you visit the page.

Edited by Prince_Xanthius

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Because arguments based on fallacies can validate anything. And if this is to be argued for, then look how Xanthius bases his arguments - those I can work with. Oh the poor kids and the poor minorities? Thats just crap used to make your point a victim/martyrs one, when you could have just said "I'd like to have it that way."

 

 

 

Life is not always fair. Being fair or unfair to ALL minorities would necessitate never doing anything.

 

We have no LGBT dragons - Unfair!

 

 

There is a "black dragon" - Racism!

 

 

People with slow connections don't get free rares - Fix that!

 

 

I'm blind, how should i collect dragons without setting up the page for screenreaders - Discrimination!

 

 

 

You could continue that list endlessly. Its basically what stalls most of politics. Gladly, DC is NOT a democrary, or else we'd never see any new stuff at all.

 

--

 

@Xanthius: To me, the news ARE currently on the site.

 

See what I did here? I just took your argument and it's absolutely valid in the other direction as well.

 

 

 

@fuzz: once again, its the parents, I repeat, the parents sole responsibility WHAT their child does.

user posted image

 

Baron, I think you said pretty well what I could not say and why I feel the arguments for it are rather "weak". Thanks.

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Why does it matter that it is a minority? Why can't news just be on the main site for everyone? Why should anyone have to go to the forum for important information?

 

It doesn't matter about having to join or not, it's a matter of having pertinent information regarding the site on the main site.

 

Who. cares. about the reasons brought up for this idea other than it would help everyone, forum goers or not. So you're against the reasons others have made for the suggestion. But why is the question. Just because it isn't beneficial to you doesn't mean it isn't beneficial or would serve no purpose. It's helpful to everyone and especially so for those who do not go to the forum for whatever reason.

 

From what I gather, you simply think it's unnecessary and none of the reasons in favor for it make you think so. On the other hand, many think it IS necessary and extremely helpful. I think that's honestly not going to change at all between us. But if it doesn't affect you, and it's helpful to others, what's the harm in it? You seem to be so fervently against the idea, at least enough that you're arguing all the reasons for it. What is unnecessary about it? Why force anyone to come to the forum (or even to the Wiki!) to view information about the site?

 

I agree with Xanthius on this:

*APPLAUSE*

 

This would harm no one and benefit many. Minorities have nothing to do with it.

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@libby: close. I am opposed to the idea, but can only argue nonsense reasonings about it. Basing new features on fallacies usually makes them needlessly complicated or bloated.

Maybe you'd like to go back to page 1 and reread my initial statement there?

The sarcasm was unnecessary. I've been following this thread from the beginning and I'm well aware of what has been said and do not need to go back and reread it. However, through discussion, people often clarify heir own standpoints to themselves and realize their initial position wasn't quite correct. That is what I was hoping was true of you.

 

Furthermore, while I will agree with you that some of the reasons others have argued in favor of this have certainly strayed into fallacious territory (and I certainly agree with your arguments against those), not every reason has. Most of us do not find the forums to be part of the game, and as others have repeatedly stated, this would harm no one and be useful to many, including those who are on the forums.

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Most of us do not find the forums to be part of the game (...)

And your statement is based on...?

 

Forgive me, but I am a bit confused here. I look at the top of the main page and I see: Cave, Account, Dragons, Help, Forums, Shop, Logout. For me, the message is clear and simple: forums are part of the game, otherwise why even bother to place that link on the main page?

 

I simply can't wrap my head around your reasoning. "This would harm no one" - OK. "This would be useful to many" - how can we be so sure about that? And if we can't be sure that would be useful to anyone besides... well, besides who exactly*? ...then maybe it's not worth making such a big deal out of?

 

* I know that there are people that don't want to visit forums, but I think that whitebaron has already referred to that in his previous posts - "You don't have to read anything of the forum to read the news".

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* I know that there are people that don't want to visit forums, but I think that whitebaron has already referred to that in his previous posts - "You don't have to read anything of the forum to read the news".

So how do you read the news outside the forum? the link takes you - to the forum. And what part of the GAME is on the forum? Trading is harder without it but can easily be arranged between friends - and I think I played for at least two years before I even thought of trading - it's far from vital. But news of events IS.

 

As this hurts no one, I see absolutely no reason to oppose this idea.

 

If we get a specific news page, I think that makes the announcement on the main page obsolete. So if this was implemented, that could be rid of, and those who mentioned 'squishing' would also have their problem solved. Best case, there'd be some indicator over the News title to let you know something new was posted. It would disappear once you'd clicked the page.

Why would anyone mind?

Edited by fuzzbucket

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So how do you read the news outside the forum?

 

Sorry, my bad. Maybe that should be more like: "you don't have to read anything of the forum besides the news". Nobody forces you to read other users' comments or other topics, you can simply check on the news and read only the first post. I think that it shouldn't be mission impossible for any reasonable person, even if that person is really, really allergic to that particular community wink.gif

 

And what part of the GAME is on the forum? Trading is harder without it but can easily be arranged between friends - and I think I played for at least two years before I even thought of trading - it's far from vital.

 

In the beginning, I was playing without forum account. But I was checking on DC forums from time to time in order to get informations about, for example, different kinds of lineages, different types of dragons' rarity, vampire dragons, other holiday dragons, frequency of refusals, how risky is using Earthquake etc. When I had some technical problems with the game or saw something weird on my scroll - guess, where I was looking for answers? So, no, it's not just about trading.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that DC forums are the only official source of informations about Dragon Cave in general - and therefore are important part of the game...

 

...it's far from vital. But news of events IS.

 

...and that's why I think that the official DC forums are the best place to get detailed informations about all the new stuff. We have "Recent News" on the main page and everyone can see titles like "Halloween Event" or "Dragon Encyclopedia".

 

Why would anyone mind?

 

Umm... Maybe because someone can find your aguments unconvincing? I'm not going to tear my hair out if the news are moved somewhere else or something, but I think that there are a lot of more important things that could be done on DC.

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Life is not always fair. Being fair or unfair to ALL minorities would necessitate never doing anything.

  • We have no LGBT dragons - Unfair!

     

  • There is a "black dragon" - Racism!

     

  • People with slow connections don't get free rares - Fix that!

     

  • I'm blind, how should i collect dragons without setting up the page for screenreaders - Discrimination!

You could continue that list endlessly. Its basically what stalls most of politics. Gladly, DC is NOT a democrary, or else we'd never see any new stuff at all.

 

No one has said any of those things in this discussion. All this discussion asks for is that everyone has access to the news, whether they have access to the forums or not. That is all I am advocating.

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And your statement is based on...?

 

Forgive me, but I am a bit confused here. I look at the top of the main page and I see: Cave, Account, Dragons, Help, Forums, Shop, Logout. For me, the message is clear and simple: forums are part of the game, otherwise why even bother to place that link on the main page?

 

I simply can't wrap my head around your reasoning. "This would harm no one" - OK. "This would be useful to many" - how can we be so sure about that? And if we can't be sure that would be useful to anyone besides... well, besides who exactly*? ...then maybe it's not worth making such a big deal out of?

 

* I know that there are people that don't want to visit forums, but I think that whitebaron has already referred to that in his previous posts - "You don't have to read anything of the forum to read the news".

Having access to the forums through the game is very different than the forums being a necessary part of the game.

 

Admittedly, my use of the word "most" is an assumption. We know through TJ that there are a large number of players who do not participate in the forums, so we know THEY don't consider it part of the game. Many of the people who are in this discussion use the forums but do not consider it part of the game. We KNOW this would be useful to people who may want news but do not, for whatever reason, get on the forums. I myself sometimes go for periods of time without accessing the forum, but I would be happy to see at least news on the site. Thus, there are people who use the forums who would also find this suggestion useful.

 

I'm sorry that you can't wrap your head around my reasoning, because I can certainly wrap my head around yours. I just think you're wrong.

 

Frankly, it's the naysayers - like you - who are making a big deal out of this, not the proponents of it

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No one has said any of those things in this discussion.  All this discussion asks for is that everyone has access to the news, whether they have access to the forums or not. That is all I am advocating.

 

 

 

 

 

Applauds.

 

Also don't see why anyone would argue against something which would benefit various people - including the suggestion of having an unobtrusive link to basic off-forum news postings fixing the squashing issue on the Cave page - when (unless they like the squashed page and are fighting to keep it) there doesn't seem to be any downside to this for any user. unsure.gif

 

 

Edit: would like to point out that some of the 'fallacious arguments' in favour of this are based on the concern for other people/groups known to be adversely affected by the current state of affairs which triggered this request.

 

To many of us, DC is a community and it's not uncommon for empathy to be a factor in many of our viewpoints.

 

You don't wanna live in a world without empathy, lol, even if it is a virtual world.

 

Edited by Syphoneira

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Also don't see why anyone would argue against something which would benefit various people - including the suggestion of having an unobtrusive link to basic off-forum news postings fixing the squashing issue on the Cave page - when (unless they like the squashed page and are fighting to keep it) there doesn't seem to be any downside to this for any user. unsure.gif

This.

 

I am working from the point of view that as this would be of real benefit to pretty much all players on DC without hurting anyone's game play, the default position is one of approval, and the onus is on those against it to raise reasons against it. The only objection so far is not seeing the point when the news is already on the forum. The entire point of this suggestion is to make the news available for those who do not for whatever reason visit the forum. Demanding they come to the forum anyway does nothing to address that fact.

 

I think at this point what we need is TJ to weigh in on whether the forum is considered PART of the main game, or SUPPLEMENTARY to it, because that is where the two sides differ most.

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This.

 

I am working from the point of view that as this would be of real benefit to pretty much all players on DC without hurting anyone's game play, the default position is one of approval, and the onus is on those against it to raise reasons against it. The only objection so far is not seeing the point when the news is already on the forum. The entire point of this suggestion is to make the news available for those who do not for whatever reason visit the forum. Demanding they come to the forum anyway does nothing to address that fact.

 

I think at this point what we need is TJ to weigh in on whether the forum is considered PART of the main game, or SUPPLEMENTARY to it, because that is where the two sides differ most.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol, since the forum, while existing as an important supplement to the game for the community, isn't actually a game, or integral to Cave hunting itself, that shouldn't be hard. smile.gif

 

I think you've nailed it.

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And your statement is based on...?

 

Forgive me, but I am a bit confused here. I look at the top of the main page and I see: Cave, Account, Dragons, Help, Forums, Shop, Logout. For me, the message is clear and simple: forums are part of the game, otherwise why even bother to place that link on the main page?

Extra bolding my own.

 

Based on this reasoning, the shop is also a part of the game, yet I am not forced to buy merchandise to be able to participate in the game.

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I guess I see little reason why people cannot simply click on the link on the main page of the site, read the first news post, and then go back to playing like normal. What is the big deal that it is on the forum? When did the forum become something similar to Hades or some place similar in some opinions?

 

I played for upwards of a year without making a forum account. In all that time where did I go for my news?

 

Yep the forum. I just never read anything besides the news and then one day when I decided I wanted to join the community I made a forum account. It's not like I became a terrible degenerate person for being on the forums. >>

 

If our community is as bad as some of you are claiming it to be then why are you here at all? Furthermore if it's such a terrible place with such terrible topics then maybe it should be modded in accordance with whats acceptable for the lowest age playing the site like neopets is and we can have password protected topics for the adult players.

 

Really I don't see anything on this forum so terrible that my thirteen year old cousin would have a life altering for the worse experience by reading it. She hears much much worse on the radio and through her friends at school. Face it in the modern age trying to hide anything from your kids is pretty much impossible unless you shelter them to extremes and then when they are thrust out into it it's like culture shock. Best you can do imo is teach kids right from worng and good morals and values and hope for the best. That's what I plan to do with my future children.

 

Regardless I don't see any reason why it can't stay how it is now with the updated front site page directing you to the news post. Nor do I guess I really see what it would hurt to post it on site like some of you are wanting. I'm just afraid posting the whole dang thing on site would create a space issue or another unnecessary page I would never visit. LOL

 

Guess I am indifferent with the bi product of being shocked that our forums are being compared to a less desirable neighborhood in some cases tongue.gif

Edited by Reidragon

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We know through TJ that there are a large number of players who do not participate in the forums, so we know THEY don't consider it part of the game.

 

As far as I know, people without forum accounts can still visit this forum as guests. They don't have to buy anything, they don't have to pay for anything, they don't have to sell their souls to TJ. News topics are accessible for everyone who wants to read them, you just have to click on the link... One click - is that really so terrible?

 

And again - I think that speaking for people who apparently don't want to speak for themselves isn't really fair. And maybe I should repeat - no, they don't have to use that topic and even that forum to tell TJ that they feel shut out from informations about new events or new releases. They can tell him that via e-mail, which can be found at the bottom of the main page - and it's up to TJ how he responds to that. We don't know anything about how many players (...if any...?) decided to inform him about their concerns in that way.

 

I just thought about something else. What if some players don't want to be informed about new releases and events? What if they just want to count on their sheer luck - to go hunt in biomes not knowing if they would find good old eggs or something entirely new? What about their style of gameplay, should they be forced to see detailed news on the main page or not?

 

If I was one of these players, I would be terribly mad if someone behind my back was speaking in my name only because I don't use the forums - not knowing anything about my style of game play or about my reasons for not using forums.

 

So again... are you sure that you don't want to fix something that isn't even broken?

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As I said before, I don't think the issue is the actual content on the forum, but that people cannot or do not want to access the forums even if it is just to look at the first news post. Just because the news is currently on the forums does not mean that users should have to visit the forums if they have the possibility of being given another option.

 

As it is, the news feed is creating a space issue (on phones and on some computers) and it can be addressed by adding a "news page." To me, the encyclopedia is an extraneous feature (as are some BSAs), so to argue that this is an extraneous feature that benefits no one is moot. There are plenty of features that don't visibly enhance gameplay and to argue redundancy is a bit of a pointless argument. Many pet sites, like Chicken Smoothie or This is Halloween Minis, give the news on the main site without users needing to go to the forums to look at it. Both pet sites do have features that can be enhanced by visiting the forums, but a player can realistically make the most of the site without ever visiting the forums.

 

At DC, users can do a lot, but the site seems to cater to forum users. For example, up until recently, there were no announcements about holiday events on the main site. Back when I first started playing, I was present on the site, but not forums so I missed out on the Valentine's 2009s because I had no idea what was happening. I joined the forum months later. Some users do not have that option and the news feed gives very little information at all, so if users want to know what is happening, they must visit the forums. The feed as it is right now is not enough.

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I just thought about something else. What if some players don't want to be informed about new releases and events? What if they just want to count on their sheer luck - to go hunt in biomes not knowing if they would find good old eggs or something entirely new? What about their style of gameplay, should they be forced to see detailed news on the main page or not?

 

It's a bit late to worry about that, don't you think? The news link is already there, any time you click "cave" And once you click a biome or the AP link, the news blurbs are no longer visible. You can ignore them if you want.

 

All people are asking, if I understand it correctly, is to be able to click the news link and be taken to a non-forum page with what the actual news is. Just like clicking a biome/AP and being sent to a new page. It affects you not at all. You can ignore it or go to forum and check it out as you wish. And since it would have no ill effects, I fail to see why anyone is so opposed to it. I've no idea why anyone thinks it is such a bad idea. I haven't seen anything here to make me think it is.

Edited by ainisarie

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So again... are you sure that you don't want to fix something that isn't even broken?

So because something is not "broke" per se means that it is perfect? That it can't be improved whatsoever? That we should leave it be, stagnant forever?

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As far as I know, people without forum accounts can still visit this forum as guests. They don't have to buy anything, they don't have to pay for anything, they don't have to sell their souls to TJ. News topics are accessible for everyone who wants to read them, you just have to click on the link... One click - is that really so terrible?

 

And again - I think that speaking for people who apparently don't want to speak for themselves isn't really fair. And maybe I should repeat - no, they don't have to use that topic and even that forum to tell TJ that they feel shut out from informations about new events or new releases. They can tell him that via e-mail, which can be found at the bottom of the main page - and it's up to TJ how he responds to that. We don't know anything about how many players (...if any...?) decided to inform him about their concerns in that way.

 

I just thought about something else. What if some players don't want to be informed about new releases and events? What if they just want to count on their sheer luck - to go hunt in biomes not knowing if they would find good old eggs or something entirely new? What about their style of gameplay, should they be forced to see detailed news on the main page or not?

 

If I was one of these players, I would be terribly mad if someone behind my back was speaking in my name only because I don't use the forums - not knowing anything about my style of game play or about my reasons for not using forums.

 

So again... are you sure that you don't want to fix something that isn't even broken?

 

 

Hi, Aurigena!

 

I would like to point out that in your speaking for the people who aren't on forum to essentially tell them (actually, the rest of us, lol, since they aren't here,) that 'nothing's stopping them from visiting the forum' when something evidently is, you must consider that there are a variety of potential reasons for this and that they will vary from one person to another - and that the reason each has is not so much the issue.

 

Providing a choice in such areas to people is not only a considerate thing to do, but a good business move on the site owner's part.

 

People typically play games of this type to relax and have fun, and DC has always been very big on not interfering with people's playing styles - which should include not enforcing unwilling or forbidden visits to the forum site merely to discover important changes/Releases which affect them, and otherwise... do without.

 

We have been told in the past that the number of players who do not belong to the forum outnumber those who do; are they seriously likely to be upset that people are thinking of them and trying to make sure that they aren't deprived of information?

 

 

'... If I was one of these players, I would be terribly mad if someone behind my back was speaking in my name only because I don't use the forums - not knowing anything about my style of game play or about my reasons for not using forums. ...'

 

 

How is anyone behind anyone's back, speaking in anyone's name? laugh.gif

 

As a group, we don't even know any of these thousands of players, only some of the potential reasons, none of which reasons are being specifically assigned to specific Cave members off the forums, apart from the odd ones personally known and mentioned by various commenters.

 

Whoever they are, they aren't on the forums for reasons sufficient to them, or to their parents, and it's frankly not our business to judge their reasons as unworthy or to tell them what to do. smile.gif

 

But they do have a right to be considered and accommodated where feasible - after all, the enactment of this suggestion would be harming none of the other players.

 

 

If your concern is with anyone wishing NOT to see the News announcements, a simple off-site News link which could be easily left unclicked would 'force' far less information on everyone playing about what is going on in News than what we currently see crowded onto the Cave site entry page:

 

Recent News

Patch Notes

Posted on 2014-11-18 by TJ09

 

Here's a small update that aims to improve a few pain points regarding zombies and the encyclopedia....

Happy Halloween!

Posted on 2014-10-31 by TJ09

 

Halloween Event

Posted on 2014-10-25 by TJ09

 

Dragon Encyclopedia

Posted on 2014-10-22 by TJ09

 

A little over six months after its initial announcement, the Dragon Encyclopedia is finally here!...

 

 

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Whoever they are, they aren't on the forums for reasons sufficient to them, or to their parents, and it's frankly not our business to judge their reasons as unworthy or to tell them what to do.  smile.gif

 

But they do have a right to be considered and accommodated where feasible - after all, the enactment of this suggestion would be harming none of the other players.

 

Hello, Syphoneira smile.gif

 

I know that you mean well, but let me try to introduce some logic to your argumentation.

 

1. I'm sure that there are players who don't want to read news on the forum just because they choose to ignore them - not because they don't want to / can't visit forum. In that case we have every right to suppose that these players are completely fine without reading news and won't be interested in reading them anywhere else.

 

2. You claim that there are also players that can't read news because they don't want to visit these forums at all. They can click on the link visible on the main page and read only (only!) the first post, but they simply don't want to. You seem to claim that their reasons are irrelevant - but for me they are not. For me, someone who ignores valuable news only because he / she don't like the forum / style of the forum / colours of the forum / fonts of the forum / TJ's avatar is unreasonable. And I think that there's no point in granting requests of unreasonable individuals (well... technically they aren't even making any requests because it seems that you speak for them).

 

3. So that leaves only the last group: people (especially children) who cannot visit forums at all. And again, you seem to claim that details are irrelevant - they can't, so we have to make their life better. And I'm asking for details. Do you know something - anything, really - about such cases? Do you personally know people that can't visit this forum at all - and why they can't? Because I've got a feeling that we are talking about an elusive group: nobody knows anything about them for sure, but everyone seems to claim that they are a significant part of DC players. I think that's illogical.

 

Really I don't see anything on this forum so terrible that my thirteen year old cousin would have a life altering for the worse experience by reading it. She hears much much worse on the radio and through her friends at school.

 

And I believe that the vast majority of parents - especially parents knowing a thing or two about forums - feels (or would feel) the same way smile.gif This forum is all rainbows and unicorns comparing to many others.

 

How is anyone behind anyone's back, speaking in anyone's name?  laugh.gif

 

Sorry - my English is still a bit rusty. Maybe that wasn't a good choice of words unsure.gif

 

So because something is not "broke" per se means that it is perfect? That it can't be improved whatsoever? That we should leave it be, stagnant forever?

 

I think that in some cases, "perfect is the enemy of good" wink.gif . And I just think that there are many other things - things useful to the majority of players - that could be done on DC, for example, something that would allow players to easier sort their dragons.

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I think that in some cases, "perfect is the enemy of good" wink.gif . And I just think that there are many other things - things useful to the majority of players - that could be done on DC, for example, something that would allow players to easier sort their dragons.

I don't see why "I don't want this prioritized over other improvements" should equal "This shouldn't be implemented at all".

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Honestly, I don't really care about this one way or the other, but I'll agree with InugamiZERO that I hate the news feed on the cave page. Now, everything looks messy and squashed. Another alternative, for that reason alone, would be great.

 

Unless TJ's site is required to be COPPA compliant or is breaking COPPA rules, which I don't think it is, what the kiddies see isn't his problem.

 

 

COPPA

Edited by MedievalMystic

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I don't see why "I don't want this prioritized over other improvements" should equal "This shouldn't be implemented at all".

Neither do I smile.gif I believe that in "Suggestions / Requests" users can implement whatever they want and that other users have every right to find their arguments unconvincing. And that's what are discussions for.

 

...everything looks messy and squashed.

 

I agree. I think that news section could use some spacing and text-resizing.

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