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Fuzzbucket

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Not all parents have the time or the inclination to play in the cave. So for instance for a parent to tell a 10 y/o kid that the glitch in teleport is fixed isn't enough. To deliver news you do need to know what it means.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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My opinion on this issue in a nutshell:

 

Not everyone playing the game has access to the forums. To have access to the news on the site pages would be fair to those people.

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My opinion on this issue in a nutshell:

 

Not everyone playing the game has access to the forums. To have access to the news on the site pages would be fair to those people.

I have to agree raindear. That is pretty much my opinion, too.

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I honestly don't see why this suggestion appears to have caused so much discussion. Why we are all talking about what the right/wrong way to deal with children on the internet, if some countries block forums, circumventing filters etc. is beyond me. That's irrelevant. People are allowed to CHOOSE (not forbidden, not lacking access, CHOOSE) not to join the (entirely separate) forums without being dismissed in this discussion.

 

You have to remember that we here arguing are all on the forums. I'm fairly sure that there is a large portion of players on the site who DO NOT, for whatever reason, visit the forum. Everyone makes a big fuss in suggestions about 'limiting gameplay styles' - demanding everyone joins the forum or suck it up is limiting how people can play the game.

 

The idea is non-invasive, simple to implement, and would allow EVERYONE on the actual site to see important information about updates and releases. It is also not going to be detrimental to anybody who is here to discuss the idea! Actually, if it removes the news feed on to a separate page, I'd classify it as an improvement because the current layout looks horrible. Literally the only objection raised so far appears to be 'well, I'm on the forum and think it is unnecessary.'

 

 

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I honestly don't see why this suggestion appears to have caused so much discussion. Why we are all talking about what the right/wrong way to deal with children on the internet, if some countries block forums, circumventing filters etc. is beyond me. That's irrelevant. People are allowed to CHOOSE (not forbidden, not lacking access, CHOOSE) not to join the (entirely separate) forums without being dismissed in this discussion.

 

You have to remember that we here arguing are all on the forums. I'm fairly sure that there is a large portion of players on the site who DO NOT, for whatever reason, visit the forum. Everyone makes a big fuss in suggestions about 'limiting gameplay styles' - demanding everyone joins the forum or suck it up is limiting how people can play the game.

 

The idea is non-invasive, simple to implement, and would allow EVERYONE on the actual site to see important information about updates and releases. It is also not going to be detrimental to anybody who is here to discuss the idea! Actually, if it removes the news feed on to a separate page, I'd classify it as an improvement because the current layout looks horrible. Literally the only objection raised so far appears to be 'well, I'm on the forum and think it is unnecessary.'

100% this.

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I honestly don't see why this suggestion appears to have caused so much discussion. Why we are all talking about what the right/wrong way to deal with children on the internet, if some countries block forums, circumventing filters etc. is beyond me. That's irrelevant. People are allowed to CHOOSE (not forbidden, not lacking access, CHOOSE) not to join the (entirely separate) forums without being dismissed in this discussion.

 

You have to remember that we here arguing are all on the forums. I'm fairly sure that there is a large portion of players on the site who DO NOT, for whatever reason, visit the forum. Everyone makes a big fuss in suggestions about 'limiting gameplay styles' - demanding everyone joins the forum or suck it up is limiting how people can play the game.

 

The idea is non-invasive, simple to implement, and would allow EVERYONE on the actual site to see important information about updates and releases. It is also not going to be detrimental to anybody who is here to discuss the idea! Actually, if it removes the news feed on to a separate page, I'd classify it as an improvement because the current layout looks horrible. Literally the only objection raised so far appears to be 'well, I'm on the forum and think it is unnecessary.'

 

 

 

I see the 100% and 200% agreements and raise to 500% agreement. smile.gif

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laugh.gif I'm not going to get into the bidding war here, but I do think that Prince_Xanthius has summed things up quite nicely.

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while prince xanthius does make a valid point about choosing not to sign up as a better reason than all that child/blocking conspiracy thinking:

 

why would you choose not to read the news if you want to know them?

 

You are neither required to make an account, nor required to read any more than the news post itself. i read the news for possibly a year before signing up.

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while prince xanthius does make a valid point about choosing not to sign up as a better reason than all that child/blocking conspiracy thinking:

 

why would you choose not to read the news if you want to know them?

 

You are neither required to make an account, nor required to read any more than the news post itself. i read the news for possibly a year before signing up.

That still requires you go to the forum, and some people do not want to go to the forum.

 

That's it, plain and simple. If you can't understand that some people don't want to go to the forum, then I don't think there's anything anyone can do to convince you to support this suggestion for those people.

 

I believe that no one should ever have to go to this forum. At all. For ANY reason. All that should be needed is the News feed and the first posts for the threads on the news feed (and maybe even older posts).

Edited by edwardelricfreak

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Hi, whitebaron,

 

I believe one point is that some people are not permitted to access the forums, while others prefer not to.

 

Why force people to break parental rules/alter their play-style to discover major game aspects or miss out on important game information when a simple, unobtrusive link could give them access to the basic facts of the news off-forum?

 

 

 

Edit: ninja.gif ed by a mile, lol - needz moar caffeine!

Edited by Syphoneira

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Just another anecdote...

 

I'm considering returning to a pixel collecting game that I used to play. However, should I decide to return, I will avoid their forum completely. The game itself is excellent.. the community is abusive, elitist and very money oriented; one of those places that give HUGE perks to donaters.

 

While the DC forum is not near as unfriendly, it still has a rather bad reputation. Hence why parents don't want their children on the forum.

 

Which is why the News needs to be a bigger part of the Cave itself, since the News is 'game oriented' and not necessarily 'forum oriented'. The social aspect of News threads really have nothing to do with the game itself, so only TJ's posts and posts made by dragon artist/creators are the only posts that need to be seen in the Cave.

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Just another anecdote...

 

I'm considering returning to a pixel collecting game that I used to play. However, should I decide to return, I will avoid their forum completely. The game itself is excellent.. the community is abusive, elitist and very money oriented; one of those places that give HUGE perks to donaters.

 

While the DC forum is not near as unfriendly, it still has a rather bad reputation. Hence why parents don't want their children on the forum.

 

Which is why the News needs to be a bigger part of the Cave itself, since the News is 'game oriented' and not necessarily 'forum oriented'. The social aspect of News threads really have nothing to do with the game itself, so only TJ's posts and posts made by dragon artist/creators are the only posts that need to be seen in the Cave.

THANK you cinnamin, for making the exact post I have been beating my head against my screen over ! wub.gif

 

You only need to take a quick look at GD - where a thread about EMOTIONAL SUPPORT repeatedly gets closed when people - us, forum members ! - get abusive - never mind other threads in there about touchy topics - but emotional support ??? blink.gif to see why most parents would not want their children in here (or in most forums, actually.)

 

If they are allowed to access news - that lets them into all the less savoury stuff. Even if you are standing behind them, they can click on a thread and see a truly foul post in a thread with a harmless title before you can get to the close button. It takes but a blink to read a nasty sentence.

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I believe one point is that some people are not permitted to access the forums, while others prefer not to.

 

Why force people to break parental rules/alter their play-style to discover major game aspects or miss out on important game information when a simple, unobtrusive link could give them access to the basic facts of the news off-forum?

I just think it is a very sad indication of society that "blocking" is the major arguing factor of a proposal. Because its absolutely biased upon certain (and i've got to add it once again) minorities!

 

You don't have to read anything of the forum to read the news. Arguing that news should be accessible without changing the domain to forums.dragcave.net is just something that i can't get my head around. Using the same argument, one could also say, that there should be no forums link AT ALL on the mainpage, as there are people who don't want to go here.

 

 

@Cinnamin: Well, not using it for posting does not necessitate not reading.

 

@The original argument from Prince_Xanthius:

Noone is forcing you to join the forums in oder to read the news.

Noone is forcing you to read other posts than TJs.

 

SO why is that a worse thing?

 

@fuzzbucket: you really should stop that "its about the kids" thinking. if you knew what kids these days do behind the back of their parents, then you'd be rolling into your grave. oh, and btw: kids below the age of 13 are not allowed due to coppa on any us-based site unless their parents guarantee that they look after them. In many countries, 14-16 year old kids can even go and VOTE! so they are deemed responsible enough to enter the normal society.

Edited by whitebaron

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You don't have to read anything of the forum to read the news. Arguing that news should be accessible without changing the domain to forums.dragcave.net is just something that i can't get my head around. Using the same argument, one could also say, that there should be no forums link AT ALL on the mainpage, as there are people who don't want to go here.

I guess what doesn't make sense to me is why you're so passionately opposed to the idea.

 

Having the full news posts on the cave itself would hurt no-one. It wouldn't change anything to do with the game or the forums themselves. It would be more convenient to everyone except maybe TJ, and there are coding shortcuts that could be used to make it so that it doesn't even really affect him after it's initially set up.

 

So maybe you don't think it's strictly necessary. Well, it isn't. But for some people, it would be nice. So why the insistent opposition?

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I just think it is a very sad indication of society that "blocking" is the major arguing factor of a proposal. Because its absolutely biased upon certain (and i've got to add it once again) minorities!

 

So, anything that only affects minorities doesn't matter? And being fair to minorities is unnecessary?

 

Um, I just do not agree.

 

This would be fair to those who for whatever reason are not on the forums. I believe it to be the right thing to do.

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@Cinnamin: Well, not using it for posting does not necessitate not reading.

Not so.. guess I wasn't direct enough. That forum is so awful, that I intend to actually block it from myself. THAT's how bad it is. That forum is so bad that I would rather not see their News at all, if it meant I had to login to their forum. Even if it meant missing a limited edition release, I would NOT login to that forum. It was the forum that made me quit playing the game, but due to recent changes to the game, I'm considering playing again. But I'll never, ever login to that forum again for any reason.

 

DC isn't the worst forum on the web, but I don't recommend it for children or folk whose feelings are easily hurt.

Edited by Cinnamin Draconna

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@fuzzbucket: you really should stop that "its about the kids" thinking. if you knew what kids these days do behind the back of their parents, then you'd be rolling into your grave. oh, and btw: kids below the age of 13 are not allowed due to coppa on any us-based site unless their parents guarantee that they look after them. In many countries, 14-16 year old kids can even go and VOTE! so they are deemed responsible enough to enter the normal society.

How many kids do you have? I am well aware of what they get into. That's not a good reason for saying it is OK to add more that need not be added. I don't need to be told what I should and should not post, thanks very much.

 

In any case the point of this suggestion is simply to have the entire game - including essential news - on the cave site.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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@whitebaron: I am going to have to side with Eef here - if you cannot accept that some people do not want to come to the forum AT ALL, then there isn't going to be any convincing you of this idea. I agree that you can just come and read the News, and only read TJs posts - I did that for a long time here, but it is very easy to get sucked into reading things once you are on the forums, even if you don't post. People should be allowed to avoid the forums entirely if they so wish without missing out on important announcements.

 

There is still no argument here other than believing it is unnecessary because people should just come on the forum and look. It would not be difficult for TJ to set up, and even if he does have to copy+paste the entire post to get it onto the news page (which I am pretty sure he would not have to do; I do not believe the coding to get the whole first post shown as opposed to just the feed summary would be complicated) it would take him maybe 30 seconds or a minute to do, and the change would have no detrimental effect on anybodies game play.

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So maybe you don't think it's strictly necessary. Well, it isn't. But for some people, it would be nice. So why the insistent opposition?

Because arguments based on fallacies can validate anything. And if this is to be argued for, then look how Xanthius bases his arguments - those I can work with. Oh the poor kids and the poor minorities? Thats just crap used to make your point a victim/martyrs one, when you could have just said "I'd like to have it that way."

 

So, anything that only affects minorities doesn't matter? And being fair to minorities is unnecessary?

 

Life is not always fair. Being fair or unfair to ALL minorities would necessitate never doing anything.

We have no LGBT dragons - Unfair!

 

There is a "black dragon" - Racism!

 

People with slow connections don't get free rares - Fix that!

 

I'm blind, how should i collect dragons without setting up the page for screenreaders - Discrimination!

 

 

You could continue that list endlessly. Its basically what stalls most of politics. Gladly, DC is NOT a democrary, or else we'd never see any new stuff at all.

 

--

 

@Xanthius: To me, the news ARE currently on the site.

There is still no argument here other than believing it is necessary because people should just dont come on the forum and look. It would not be difficult for them to click, and even if they have to make their window smaller to only see the news which I am pretty sure they could; I do not believe the cclicking to get only the first post shown as opposed to the whole page would be complicated) it would take them maybe 5 seconds to do, and the change would have no detrimental effect on anybodies game play.

See what I did here? I just took your argument and it's absolutely valid in the other direction as well.

 

 

 

@fuzz: once again, its the parents, I repeat, the parents sole responsibility WHAT their child does.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Because arguments based on fallacies can validate anything. And if this is to be argued for, then look how Xanthius bases his arguments - those I can work with. Oh the poor kids and the poor minorities? Thats just crap used to make your point a victim/martyrs one, when you could have just said "I'd like to have it that way."

So, just to make sure I understand you correctly: You're not actually opposed to this idea, other than you just don't really see the point - you're just opposed to some of the arguments that have been used in favor of it. Would you consider this a fair evaluation of your position?

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I think you and I shall just have to agree to disagree whitebaron! I actually agree with you that it is not necessary (and that the discussion keeps involving irrelevant points). I understand that people can take 10 seconds to only view the news post and nothing else - especially now there is a news feed to link directly to the post.

 

Where we differ is how we feel about 'should we bother.' I think yes, because I think the main site should be as self-contained as possible and even if it is unnecessary I believe it would be nice to allow people who want to avoid forums to still see the news, as you can miss out on things if you don't check the news. You think no because they can see the posts now without a forum account so should come onto the forum and look, and avoid missing out that way.

 

Both sides are completely valid, and I will be frank, entirely opinion based. Well, except I'd REALLY like the news feed on a separate page but I digress. I don't see the harm in having the news posts on the site, you don't see the point *shrugs*

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Maybe this discussion would be more productive if you looked at the problem from more balanced point of view. Seriously, trying to prove that you're right by ignoring logical facts and reasoning is... well, not right.

 

Because arguments based on fallacies can validate anything. And if this is to be argued for, then look how Xanthius bases his arguments - those I can work with. Oh the poor kids and the poor minorities? Thats just crap used to make your point a victim/martyrs one, when you could have just said "I'd like to have it that way."

 

Life is not always fair. Being fair or unfair to ALL minorities would necessitate never doing anything.

 

This. I'm so very glad that common sense is still alive and well in some people. And:

 

You don't have to read anything of the forum to read the news.

 

So very much this. I think that this is the simplest answer to your problem. And I think that there's no need to show news with all details on scroll pages. You look at the title and you know that something is going on. You want details - you go to the place where you can read more. Simple. Some time ago, people who don't use and don't visit this forum technically hadn't ANY chance to know about changes on the site, new events or new releases...

 

I mean, is there any serious reason to complicate things that make perfect sense and work fine? Because I think that speaking for some elusive "minority" is only making things more confusing than they need to be. If someone has a problem with using this forum to articulate his / her concerns with the way DC works, he / she can always contact TJ via e-mail (as far as I know).

 

 

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Because its absolutely biased upon certain (and i've got to add it once again) minorities!

Why does it matter that it is a minority? Why can't news just be on the main site for everyone? Why should anyone have to go to the forum for important information?

 

It doesn't matter about having to join or not, it's a matter of having pertinent information regarding the site on the main site.

 

Who. cares. about the reasons brought up for this idea other than it would help everyone, forum goers or not. So you're against the reasons others have made for the suggestion. But why is the question. Just because it isn't beneficial to you doesn't mean it isn't beneficial or would serve no purpose. It's helpful to everyone and especially so for those who do not go to the forum for whatever reason.

 

From what I gather, you simply think it's unnecessary and none of the reasons in favor for it make you think so. On the other hand, many think it IS necessary and extremely helpful. I think that's honestly not going to change at all between us. But if it doesn't affect you, and it's helpful to others, what's the harm in it? You seem to be so fervently against the idea, at least enough that you're arguing all the reasons for it. What is unnecessary about it? Why force anyone to come to the forum (or even to the Wiki!) to view information about the site?

 

I agree with Xanthius on this:

I think you and I shall just have to agree to disagree whitebaron! I actually agree with you that it is not necessary (and that the discussion keeps involving irrelevant points). I understand that people can take 10 seconds to only view the news post and nothing else - especially now there is a news feed to link directly to the post.

 

Where we differ is how we feel about 'should we bother.' I think yes, because I think the main site should be as self-contained as possible and even if it is unnecessary I believe it would be nice to allow people who want to avoid forums to still see the news, as you can miss out on things if you don't check the news. You think no because they can see the posts now without a forum account so should come onto the forum and look, and avoid missing out that way.

 

Both sides are completely valid, and I will be frank, entirely opinion based. Well, except I'd REALLY like the news feed on a separate page but I digress. I don't see the harm in having the news posts on the site, you don't see the point *shrugs*

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I think you and I shall just have to agree to disagree whitebaron! I actually agree with you that it is not necessary (and that the discussion keeps involving irrelevant points). I understand that people can take 10 seconds to only view the news post and nothing else - especially now there is a news feed to link directly to the post.

 

Where we differ is how we feel about 'should we bother.' I think yes, because I think the main site should be as self-contained as possible and even if it is unnecessary I believe it would be nice to allow people who want to avoid forums to still see the news, as you can miss out on things if you don't check the news. You think no because they can see the posts now without a forum account so should come onto the forum and look, and avoid missing out that way.

 

Both sides are completely valid, and I will be frank, entirely opinion based. Well, except I'd REALLY like the news feed on a separate page but I digress. I don't see the harm in having the news posts on the site, you don't see the point *shrugs*

I agree with that as well. Maybe you could elaborate why this is so to those who simply fail to read my posts and argue single points all over?

 

@eef: most of your questions have been answered in a previous posts of mine. Especially this point, which i made abundantly clear at least two times:

 

To me, the forums ARE a part of the site, as valid (or even more so) as the thuwed page, the wilderness, the graveyard.

 

 

@libby: close. I am opposed to the idea, but can only argue nonsense reasonings about it. Basing new features on fallacies usually makes them needlessly complicated or bloated.

Maybe you'd like to go back to page 1 and reread my initial statement there?

Edited by whitebaron

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