Slightly Relax IRC Rules

[Pixxelation]

Over the last few years, I've spent a fair amount of time on the DC IRC, in both official channels and non-official ones. One thing I've noticed about the main channels in particular is that they are pretty strict when compared to other channels, absurdly so at times, which can be a little overwhelming to some new IRC users and can make it easy to slip. In fact, some rules are even stricter there than on the forums. For those reasons, I'd like to propose that we slightly relax some IRC rules, specifically the rule against excessive caps; that rule has its place, but it's gotten to the point where even one word in all caps can sometimes warrant a "watch the caps". I think a few words in all caps should be allowed to express excitement, for example. In contrast to that, on the forums, players post in caps quite frequently, as it is used to express excitement.

 

Thoughts?

Edited June 24, 2014 by PieMaster

[Thuban]

Rules have been more relaxed. I havent had to do any serious modding in well over 4 months, outside of one spammer, and one kick. During the entire time I am logged in, most days.. I'm not seeing any real modding that has been happening. Things have been peaceful as far as I was aware.

 

If something is going on that I dont know about, please feel free to toss me a pm or catch me in the chat. Im not generally in there at night, but I've been around a lot more lately. If you feel someone has acted out of line.. you can always message tj, and talk to him about it, if you dont want to talk to one of us. Chat logs are a good thing to have handy if you decide to go that route.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Thuban

[Pixxelation]

Exactly--things are pretty peaceful now that chat doesn't have 140+ people there on average. As such, I think we should relax the rule regarding caps a bit, since chat is slower and it is an easy thing to prevent from getting too out of hand.

[Thuban]

Has anyone been kicked for caps recently?

 

Generally, one or two sentences worth of caps gets you nothing more than a "watch the caps". I havent seen kicks or anything happen. I havent seen a ban for caps in a long time... like.. well over a year for myself personally.

 

I guess my point is: I'm not seeing where things have been too strict, OUTSIDE of holidays. During the holidays, when chat gets busy, yes.. things get strict. Mostly because we tend to have a lot of new faces who may or may not be accustomed to chat, and who have not always read the rules. I've gone from being one of the strictest mods, to "this is walking a line, but I'm going to wait until there IS a problem before I step in. I tend to ask people to move conversations to other channels still, if a couple people mention having an issue with a current topic.

 

We used to not allow trigger topics (abuse, religion, politics) but.. if the chat is calm, and everyone is behaving, we do have those kinds of topics sometimes. If we have newer faces, I try to pull them into a pm to talk to them, when rules are being broken.

 

All of the chat mods have their own way of doing things. Some, like to mod more closely to the rules.. some.. will wait until there is a problem. Newer mods, tend to mod things more closely to whats written, but overtime, everyone loosens up.

 

 

 

 

[Starscream]

Thuban summed it up well.

 

there has been no kicks for caps, there have been "please watch the caps" type comments.

There have been kicks for serious spams. It has been pretty relaxed lately.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Starscream

[Pixxelation]

But even the "watch the caps" could be relaxed a little more, I feel. I know there haven't been any kicks lately, but it can still feel disheartening.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

But even the "watch the caps" could be relaxed a little more, I feel. I know there haven't been any kicks lately, but it can still feel disheartening.

I second this. There have been a few times I've gotten excited about something going on in the #DC channel and posted something to the effect of "AHHH YES THIS IS AWESOME" or whatever. Having a mod intone you're doing something wrong by doing so, even if it's not a full on warning, is a pretty quick mood kill and usually sees me scurrying out shortly after.

[Thuban]

A poke for the caps leaves no real damage to the user. Unlike here on the forum, warns do not stack up against you, eventually leading to not being able to post. A poke does no harm.. most of the time, its not even serious warns "did someone sit on your caps lock?" isnt a warning.

 

 

A poke is nothing more than a poke. A warning is nothing more than a warning. A kick is nothing more than a "ok, this is an actual warning, please stop". After a kick or two, then bans happen.

 

The chat mods and i have been discussing this post. We have been logsearching for things that might have led to you thinking we are too strict. The closest thing we have found so far, was a cap poke from a couple days ago.

 

"OMG I CAUGHT A CB GOLD! @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@"

"OOOOOH YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"

 

 

In that particular case, the user wouldnt have been poked, if it wasnt for the usages of all those unnecessary letters and symbols. The unnecessary stuff, made it spammy, which would lead to a poke from ANY of us. That poke left no smudges on the users name, we dont have a report system like here on the forums.

 

We have agreed that SOME caps are ok, sometimes an entire line of caps can be ok.. it really comes down to a couple things: is it spammy, is it offensive, and does it break any specific rules. If its only a line or two, its not a big deal, as long as its not breaking any rules.

 

 

The rules we have in chat, are 5+ years of us trying to find a middle ground. We are told when we are trained to enforce the rules, but not to be overly moddy (not the word used, but not sure i can get away with it here ). For the most part, I think that over time, we have had to mod less and and when people do bring things to our attention, we immediately sit down and have a discussion about it.. what triggered it, how things could have been handled differently, and how things like it should be handled down the road.

 

 

We will continue to discuss this one, and figure out how we will handle things like it in the future.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Thuban

[Pixxelation]

While sometimes, yes, those things are allowed, other times I've been poked for one sentence of caps, sometimes less. Most recently, after one user mentioned distaste for allergies, I agreed, saying something along the lines of "EW ALLERGIES I HATE THEM!" and got poked. I don't have the exact quote, as my logs are weird and cut off after some amount of posts back, but it was a bit of a fun-killer, since allergies are gross and I absolutely despise them

[LibbyLishly]

I don't participate in the IRC all that often, but I have to second this suggestion. The two examples that Thuban presented don't strike me as spammy enough for what is essentially a chat-warn (you call it a 'poke', but it comes across to a regular user as a warn). I don't mean to complain about you mods - Lord knows you have a tough enough job as it is and you do a good job of treading the line between being overbearing yet enforcing necessary rules - but the caps 'rule' seems a little strict for a chat room, especially if it's obvious that the conversation isn't heated.

[Thuban]

Like I said, we're having a discussion about it *right now* (including TJ as a matter of fact). Thanks for bringing it up to our attention. Hopefully.. some kind of a middle ground will be found (I remember the days where a single line of all caps was enough for a kick.. we've come a long, long way I think since those days?)

 

 

Any other rules that you guys feel are modded too severely, since almost all of the chat mods are online for the discussion right now?

 

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Agreed with both of the above. While it's hardly traumatic and doesn't have real consequences, a mod stepping in is still, well, a mod stepping in. It comes off as overbearing and overly strict and should really be reserved for when it's needed. People shouldn't need to be poked like naughty children for one or two lines of playful caps.

[Starscream]

the rules have been tweaked for the past 5 years, we are constantly refining them, trying to adjust them. Each mod will have a slightly different method of moderation, some are a little more rule bound than others. I find if there are more than 5 words capped I may say "watch the caps". Most of the time caps can be words accented to make the point of "I *HATE* allergies" Which gets the point across nicely, and also makes it more legible. I don't know or quite comprehend how hating allergies, getting poked for caps as a result is a fun killer.

 

There is no reason for more symbols or shapes in a sentence. Often things I have Moderated for have been some symbols that translate as not hearts but asci symbols. On my screen this is easily spam, and to see a whole line of hearts translated as that I will moderate for it.

 

to be very honest, we are quite laid back now. We poke periodically when the individual mod who is watching feels it needs to be poked. We sometimes discuss things as a group when something more severe pops up.

 

I have been on chats where the mods have a significant strictness. We are not like that, however we attempt to maintain a level of constancy. Just because, and I will use piemaster as an example, is friendly with the mods, does not mean he can get away with more than any other user.

 

We are here to full fill a job, like Forum mods. And unfortunately when we have to step in we will be seriously disliked. This is the nature of the beast. Its what we live with. We don't hate a user because we step in. A poke is not the end of the world. Continuance to the point of a kick or ban is.

 

Where Thuban may be a little more easy going, I am just a bit more strict. This is the nature of my beast, I realise this which is why I worked to back down a lot. A lot of stuff I used to poke for, I have let fly.

 

Finally, I find those who get moderated tend to be put out usually. This happens in any situation where someone has been caught in the wrong for whatever reason. They will lash out defensively especially if cornered.

 

I do not feel how I have been Moderating lately has been all that bad. I will continue as I have been.

 

 

[TJ09]

In order for any discussion here to be productive, the people chiming in need to provide more specifics. Saying "I don't like the IRC because it's too strict" does not give enough information to improve anything.

 

Calling out which rules are too strict, and how they're too strict (in practice, as they are actually being enforced--not how they could theoretically be interpreted based on the wording) is necessary. Bonus points for quotes/sample situations of things actually happening. Feel free to anonymize said quotes.

 

My sense on the matter is that the current IRC mods tend to be a bit proactive (i.e. they take action when they see that things may be getting out of hand), whereas people in the chat (and/or in this thread) would prefer a more reactive moderation style (wait until things get bad, then take action, but don't say anything until it's proven that things are bad). There are probably pros and cons to each, with the proactive one relying a lot more on judgement calls (and being a bit more thankless because if you prevent things from getting bad to begin with, no one knows how bad it would/could have gotten), while being reactive one is likely to result in a lot more kicks/bans.

[sonseray]

The strict rules are actually a large part of why dragoncave has a great social environment. Some of the rules drive me crazy but the pros outweigh the cons. If you want to see a fine example of "reactive moderation" gone wrong you should go check out the epicmafia.com forums. Pretty much any topic would work.

[Pixxelation]

For me, it's the caps rule that I have seen as too strongly enforced, but I had seen a user or two call the IRC strict before, so I kept the post a bit more open-ended. Keep in mind that it isn't that I dislike the IRC; I've been going on nearly daily since I joined almost four years ago. Still, I feel that "pokes" should be kept for situations when the caps are two+ sentenced or three+ phrases.

[Thuban]

I can see how users might see those pokes as actual warnings. When I first became a mod, a kick WAS your warning. People were getting rather upset about that, so we started doing verbal warnings, without kicking. That wasnt enough, so we stopped warning, and instead dropped down to the pokes, saving actual warnings for when they were really needed.. pokes generally have been only a reminder, and nothing more.

 

The caps spam thing has been discussed, we will be making some changes in that regards, at some point in the future. I am curious if there are other things that you guys feel need to be changed, either in the rules specifically, in how things are run, or in how things have been handled.

 

I know users have specifically mentioned feeling like they are being ganged up on, if multiple mods respond to the same thing at once (explaining things or similar things). Thats something that has been discussed, a few times, sometimes in the main channel with regular users weighing in. There have been other things brought up in the past couple of months, but I cant quite remember exactly what they were. I don't keep chat logs like i used to.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I used to chat a lot, but not so much any more. I thought the Mods were too lenient, most of the time.

 

I quit chatting because the chat was no longer on topic most of the time. It's Dragon Cave chat, but 90% of the time it's totally off topic. I went to chat to talk about the game, but everyone else seemed to be there just to gossip or talk about real life stuff. So I just quit chatting, because I don't care about what John did in school today or that Jane saw a movie last weekend. I wanted to chat about DC and that didn't seem to happen much anymore, so I quit going to the chat room.

[Thuban]

Topics change frequently in there.. if you want to talk about the game, it wont take more than asking a question, or saying something about the game to turn the topic. There might be an overlap of conversations for a few minutes, but it doesnt take long most times to change the topic.

 

Chats slow most of the day (like 8am-4pm est). Maybe try coming in during different times of the day, and see who is around. Different people are active at different times.

[edwardelricfreak]

I don't really use the chat, but I assume pokes are more like when a mod steps into a thread and posts a reminder for everyone to chill, or when they edit something out of your post/replace it with something. It's not any mark against you, usually, just a small nudge.

 

But other than that, I don't really know what rules should be relaxed. I can understand the caps rule. Honestly, when I chat on skype and stuff, I type in ways that would most definitely break that rule, but it's only because I type with how I would actually say something, so sometimes it's those short, loud bursts. Course that's not okay in most chats like the IRC here.

[Flamingo]

Is it really necessary to type in all caps at all? When you are excited in real life sometimes the volume of your voice slips louder than normal without you meaning to, but typing in caps is a conscious decision by pressing the Shift key. I don't see why a person can't just say "Omg I caught a CB gold just now!" instead of "OMG I CAUGHT A CB GOLD JUST NOW!" It still implies excitement over an event without acting like you're back on AOL ten years ago.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Flamingo

[CNR4806]

Is it really necessary to type in all caps at all? When you are excited in real life sometimes the volume of your voice slips louder than normal without you meaning to, but typing in caps is a conscious decision by pressing the Shift key. I don't see why a person can't just say "Omg I caught a CB gold just now!" instead of "OMG I CAUGHT A CB GOLD JUST NOW!" It still implies excitement over an event without acting like you're back on AOL ten years ago.

FYI, "OMG" is an acronym for "Oh my God" and therefore should be in all caps.

[whitebaron]

Flamingo, you're implying that the general IRC-user is a responsible adult. From my experience, most of the users are below 20.

 

Cinnamon, well, there is talk about DC every day. Its just that it gets dull if you talk about just one topic, ALL THE TIME. But - I've never actually seen dc related chat go unanswered for long,unless it was a very quiet time anyway.

 

 

I feel the dc irc is modded too strictly regarding speech rules. A public poke is a warning, however nicely it is worded, and most people assume sentences from mods have the dangerous "or else!" implied.. Thus, it should be held back a little longer than it currently is done.

 

As it stands, a single unicode character can net you a "dont spam", a single greeting or few words meant as a courtesy in another language will get you an "english only", and the caps have been covered already. I can understand this policy about text speech being forbidden, but sometimes you get a warn(yeah, yeah, call it a poke') for typos! And that is really disheartening.

 

I feel like some of those harsh pokes/warns are due to the mod in question being absent for a while,and then coming back to see something thats frowned upon. The first sentence in the last two hours will then often be the poke, and thats not looking very friendly. This is something I'd actually write into a modding guideline: don't act on impulse, especially if you are just joining/returning.

Edited June 25, 2014 by whitebaron

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Is it really necessary to type in all caps at all? When you are excited in real life sometimes the volume of your voice slips louder than normal without you meaning to, but typing in caps is a conscious decision by pressing the Shift key. I don't see why a person can't just say "Omg I caught a CB gold just now!" instead of "OMG I CAUGHT A CB GOLD JUST NOW!" It still implies excitement over an event without acting like you're back on AOL ten years ago.

It's not necessary (few things in life are XP), but a bit of it is also pretty harmless. I know I go into caps with my friends sometimes (and they with me) as a way to make goofy and excitable things even more so.

[Hellen]

Just dropping my two cents in here....

 

 

 

In over 5 years of being the staff in a family friendly chat (not dc), I have encountered a few guidelines that are based on the facts of politeness, responsibility, AND, to say it out loud, of curtesy and common sense.

 

Just think about it for a moment, how would you behave in real life?

 

If you talk to a mixed group, with all ethics and languages, would you rather talk to them in your own, which no one else but you, understands, or in the language that everyone else understands?

 

If you are in the same room as said group, would you enjoy SHOUTING at each other for the lengths of conversations? (I am not talking about one word or ONE sentence, but for whole conversations. I certainly would feel rather annoyed if I want to talk to people, and others SCREAM over my voice)

 

 

While I understand that most people feel kinda annoyed that they get caught doing something wrong, and being poked/warned to not do it again (to spare them further consequences like a ban), and that they do not like some of the rules ...

Well, the rules are there for a reason. Imagine the chat like a street. If there are no rules on the street, then there will be victims, people who are hurt, and others who think they are in the right, even if they did something wrong.

 

 

(to the topic of "Even one word in a different language gets a poke" ... honestly we all know that I could insult a person's mother, themselves, and their children up to the fifth generation in ONE word, which wouldn't even be able to be translated via the translation programs available. So ONE word in a different language can insult someone. And it's not THE GREETINGS I am talking about. Aloha, hai, hullo, hallo, hello, ciao... those and MANY many more are all greetings that we all know/are aware off. But a whole sentence in japanese/spanish/turkish/chinese/whateverlanguage ... who knows what has been said but the person who said it. Paper is patient, and you can tell much in a chat that is not true. You can also lie about something you said in language that others do not know. Yes. And that too, only in a single word.)