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Refuse to Have Refusals!

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I am of two minds of the refusal system (I have been burned by refusal as well)

 

I see the system as being like a couple who one guy or girl is interested in the other and they are such a person that the other will have no interest in them what so ever under any circumstance. flat out NO. Such as you come near me with that proposition again and I will rip your eyeballs out and feed them to your hamster. That is what a refusal is to me and it makes sense to me.

 

RL example: I had a guy ask me on a date, he told me he loved me. I refused him. Why? I already am married and I do not cheat on my spouse. So if a dragon has a mate already here again refusal does make sense. Maybe the dragon likes the pixels he is with and does not want any other. Or maybe the one he was interested in gave him a hefty slap across the face "how could you you cheating fiend!"

 

No interest can easily be. "Not tonight dear, I got a headache." "WHile you were out playing dragon hockey all night, I was left with the hatchlings crying for food - so you're sleeping on the sofa" "I am too tired - I spent the day burning villages and stealing sheep."

 

Refusal on a cool down - I could live with that with some modification. for game sake - Three strikes on the mate and you're out - permanent refusal.

Why this suggestion? One - two month cool down between refusalss (like vamp bites)

 

two strikes and you're on!

One of my professors said she gave flat out refusal to this co-worker of hers for several months. He continued to ask and finally she relented and said FINE take a date. They are married now. SO it can be possible to refuse someone and finally say - why not.

 

Three strikes and take a hike buster!

In my case - I had a more severe situation that no matter how much this person changes, I will not ever under any circumstance ever consider saying "yes" to them married or not or if he was the last person on this planet. I probably would terminate him. - Realistic Permanent refusal.

Edited by Starscream

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I'd prefer if there was no way for there to be a permanent refusal, since that would undermine they key point of this thread |D

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Refusal on a cool down -  I could live with that with some modification. for game sake - Three strikes on the mate and you're out -  permanent refusal.

I do like this, actually! That's a really good one. c:

 

It's possible to tie in BSAs with that, though. Basically the BSAs could give one more shot, for a total of 4 tries, before the dragons outright refuse forever. Or something like that.

 

It doesn't make sense for there to be NO refusals at all, but I do agree that some dragons could change their mind later so a reset-type thing would be good.

 

Perhaps more strikes could be added? I think 5 is a better number than three, though I'm sure some will want even more.

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I am of two minds of the refusal system (I have been burned by refusal as well)

 

I see the system as being like a couple who one guy or girl is interested in the other and they are such a person that the other will have no interest in them what so ever under any circumstance. flat out NO. Such as you come near me with that proposition again and I will rip your eyeballs out and feed them to your hamster. That is what a refusal is to me and it makes sense to me.

 

RL example: I had a guy ask me on a date, he told me he loved me. I refused him. Why? I already am married and I do not cheat on my spouse. So if a dragon has a mate already here again refusal does make sense. Maybe the dragon likes the pixels he is with and does not want any other. Or maybe the one he was interested in gave him a hefty slap across the face "how could you you cheating fiend!"

 

No interest can easily be. "Not tonight dear, I got a headache." "WHile you were out playing dragon hockey all night, I was left with the hatchlings crying for food - so you're sleeping on the sofa" "I am too tired - I spent the day burning villages and stealing sheep."

 

Refusal on a cool down - I could live with that with some modification. for game sake - Three strikes on the mate and you're out - permanent refusal.

Why this suggestion? One - two month cool down between refusalss (like vamp bites)

 

two strikes and you're on!

One of my professors said she gave flat out refusal to this co-worker of hers for several months. He continued to ask and finally she relented and said FINE take a date. They are married now. SO it can be possible to refuse someone and finally say - why not.

 

Three strikes and take a hike buster!

In my case - I had a more severe situation that no matter how much this person changes, I will not ever under any circumstance ever consider saying "yes" to them married or not or if he was the last person on this planet. I probably would terminate him. - Realistic Permanent refusal.

I like this idea

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I still really dislike the idea that there are only three attempts before permanent refusal. If anything, after three tries, maybe there's an increased time before the two can breed (say, you can't breed that specific pair for 2 weeks instead of 1, but they can still breed individually after 1 week), but I am against any sort of permanent refusals.

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I don't like the idea of there being NO permanent refusals.... It's a really good compromise to be able to have some sort of refusal-cooldown, and after awhile maybe the dragons warm up to each other.... But you can't expect that EVERY single pair that refuses will eventually change their mind. Sometimes it's simply a no-go, sometimes a pair just *isn't* supposed to be together. Sometimes "refuse to go near each other" actually means just that.

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I do like this, actually! That's a really good one. c:

 

It's possible to tie in BSAs with that, though. Basically the BSAs could give one more shot, for a total of 4 tries, before the dragons outright refuse forever. Or something like that.

 

It doesn't make sense for there to be NO refusals at all, but I do agree that some dragons could change their mind later so a reset-type thing would be good.

 

Perhaps more strikes could be added? I think 5 is a better number than three, though I'm sure some will want even more.

The thing about refusals is that you only roll the chance at the pair's first breeding attempt. With his proposed system I suppose it is the same, only that it is also rolled at all subsequent "first tries" after a refusal.

 

If you get 3 refusals in a row then I'm fairly certain that RNG God really doesn't want you to have this pair work. Get a replacement.

 

 

I still prefer refusals staying permament but reversible with a BSA though.

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I keep seeing things like "sometimes no means no forever" and "it feels more believable that sometimes refusals stick" and stuff.

 

By that logic, then, shouldn't we have pairs that are bred and produced eggs suddenly refusing? I mean, sometimes a couple will even have a family and then they'll have a falling out and hate each other or something.

 

 

Sometimes, it doesn't have to be about the "logic" behind it--there's a thing about separation of gameplay and story for a reason. Sometimes a mechanic is put in or taken out for gameplay reasons to increase fun/reduce frustration/increase accessibility/etc. even if it has a story/rp/etc. reason why keeping it in/not putting it in would make some kind of sense.

 

I see refusals the same way. I don't really see what they add to the game beyond frustration--especially if it's a hard or impossible to replace egg or, even worse, pair of mates. That's not a challenge--that's a ridiculous frustration that serves little to no purpose, IMO.

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I keep seeing things like "sometimes no means no forever" and "it feels more believable that sometimes refusals stick" and stuff.

 

By that logic, then, shouldn't we have pairs that are bred and produced eggs suddenly refusing? I mean, sometimes a couple will even have a family and then they'll have a falling out and hate each other or something.

So then maybe they could also occasionally refuse, too.

 

But it's true, sometimes no does mean no forever.

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I keep seeing things like "sometimes no means no forever" and "it feels more believable that sometimes refusals stick" and stuff.

 

By that logic, then, shouldn't we have pairs that are bred and produced eggs suddenly refusing? I mean, sometimes a couple will even have a family and then they'll have a falling out and hate each other or something.

 

 

Sometimes, it doesn't have to be about the "logic" behind it--there's a thing about separation of gameplay and story for a reason. Sometimes a mechanic is put in or taken out for gameplay reasons to increase fun/reduce frustration/increase accessibility/etc. even if it has a story/rp/etc. reason why keeping it in/not putting it in would make some kind of sense.

 

I see refusals the same way. I don't really see what they add to the game beyond frustration--especially if it's a hard or impossible to replace egg or, even worse, pair of mates. That's not a challenge--that's a ridiculous frustration that serves little to no purpose, IMO.

And this is my exact point of view, only worded much better xd.png Actually, do you mind if I put this quote in the OP, Kage? Really awesome argument smile.gif

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So then maybe they could also occasionally refuse, too.

 

But it's true, sometimes no does mean no forever.

I don't like the idea, it would enrage people. I was just pointing out that the logic, by extension, should mean that everybody who argues that "no means no forever sometimes" should also be supporting adding in refusals for bred pairs since yes doesn't always mean yes forever.

 

 

And I know it's true in real life that no can mean no forever--but there's that little thing about "separation of gameplay and story" again. Just because it IS realistic for no to mean no forever sometimes doesn't mean it NEEDS to be in the game purely because of that realism.

 

Sometimes a gameplay mechanic needs to be added/removed/changed to enhance the game by increasing fun or lowering frustration, the RP reason/story reasoning/real-world logic that contradicts the addition/removal/change be damned. It happens sometimes, and it NEEDS to happen sometimes.

 

 

I'd rather something that can revere refusals than nothing, having them wear off after a while is good too, but the idea of "no means no forever and ever and ever" just doesn't really appeal to me when, for me, it just adds frustration rather than a thrill or a challenge.

 

 

 

@PieMaster: Go right ahead and put it in the OP if you want!

Edited by KageSora

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I'm not saying refusals are fun, because they're not, but sometimes they do make sense. It would make more sense, realistically, for some dragons who've bred successfully to want to refuse, to, but you're right in that it would enrage many players further. I'm not advocating that it should be implemented, but it seems like your post suggested we either 1) completely go for realism or 2) fall away completely and not take it into account.

 

That's why I'm FOR something to reset a refusal- even if it's only once! But I think that there should just be some pairs that will always refuse, no matter what, or at the very least have a very low chance of ever not refusing.

 

Also, the original suggestion was using the realism of couples feuding but then finally getting married, so that's why the opposite realism was used as a counter argument.

Edited by edwardelricfreak

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"Challenge: a task or situation that tests one's abilities"

 

Refusals are not a challenge because they are 100% out of your control and are purely luck, are not always replaceable dragons (some owners of artists' alts only allow you to be on their list or lists a single time, and will not offer replacements, or flat out stopped breeding/don't breed), and do not really test one's ability to overcome anything besides an obstacle that sometimes cannot, no matter what you try, be fixed. That's not a challenge. That's a feature in the game that limits the amount of fun a user can have.

That is the BIG difference I am seeing between complaining about refusals and complaining about how difficult CB metals are to catch. The refusals you have no choice in, they sometimes happen if you breed your dragons, often on the dragons that are going to be the biggest headaches to replace, whereas you COULD just decide NOT to hunt for CB metals, if you decide they are too difficult. I admit that I, personally, haven't seen a CB gold in the cave, for example. ALSO you can, perhaps, become a better cave hunter with practice, but as the post I quoted said, refusals aren't under your control at all.

 

CB metals are a challenge you can accept or not. Refusals are just a pain.

 

I am not ENTIRELY certain I'd be in favor of removing refusals all together... HOWEVER, some kind of option to have the possibility to get that absolutely irreplaceable pair that decided, "LOL, Nope", to reverse that refusal would be nice.

 

That is my two cents for what it is worth.

Edited by Silverswift

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I really do understand the frustration, but.... Am I the only one who *doesn't* want the knowledge that every single pairing I make up will say "oh yes, let's mate!"? 'Cause... to me, that's boring. I can't pretend to know what it's like to get a refusal on impossible-to-replace pairs, but I know how it feels to have to dig around for another mate and yeah sometimes it takes awhile, but to me it's just part of the challenge. Not all dragons will like each other, and I don't really mind that.

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I don't like the idea, it would enrage people.  I was just pointing out that the logic, by extension, should mean that everybody who argues that "no means no forever sometimes" should also be supporting adding in refusals for bred pairs since yes doesn't always mean yes forever.

 

 

I would be for refusal with a currently mated pair would definitely make game-play a beast wink.gif

 

piemaster I fairly doubt that the mods would permit an alternative suggestion for refusals thread (be classed as duplicate, so my suggestion although it does lead into a permanent is an alternative suggestion. I like interesting game-play mechanics not mechanics that make life simple to the point of dullness. having no refusals makes the game less random, erratic too easy and as a result less interesting. so at least allow my suggestion to be floored as a compromise.

 

If the game play is made too easy it will not be as interesting to play. It would lack the suspense, the chance that things will not go as planned or expected. Sometimes the surprises are awesome and sometimes irritating. That was why I voiced the compromise.

 

I agree refusals suck. I had a perfect paring refuse - I will accept it.

 

 

Edited by Starscream

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I really do understand the frustration, but.... Am I the only one who *doesn't* want the knowledge that every single pairing I make up will say "oh yes, let's mate!"? 'Cause... to me, that's boring. I can't pretend to know what it's like to get a refusal on impossible-to-replace pairs, but I know how it feels to have to dig around for another mate and yeah sometimes it takes awhile, but to me it's just part of the challenge. Not all dragons will like each other, and I don't really mind that.

They won't always have eggs, though--you can have your challenge of "will I get an egg" without the "will I have to try to find a whole new dragon" frustration.

 

 

I guess I just don't get what's so thrilling or challenging about this whole "I really hope that this thing that I have zero control over and is based 100% purely in luck and doesn't test my ability in any way and that I have no way of working around or overcoming through my own capabilities works out so I don't have to scrap all the hard work I put into this one dragon to obtain another one assuming it's even possible to do so" thing.

 

Can you explain to me where, exactly, the challenge is since you have no way of working to make it less likely to happen/to over come it if it does and the only course of action is to start over obtaining one of the mates and praying you don't have to do it multiple times?

 

To me a challenge has always been something that I can work to overcome, not something I have to restart and hope for the best.

Edited by KageSora

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often on the dragons that are going to be the biggest headaches to replace

Personally I think that's just a really really case of bad luck. Often those are the only dragons some players breed. They're not breeding any random dragon ever, so they only see the refusals and get frustrated when it's between a pair they desperately want to breed.

 

I really think it's just coincidence. I feel for those that keep getting the frustrating refusals, but I do think that, overall at least, refusals are an uncommon occurrence. It's more likely that most couples will breed, but players aren't breeding every single one of their dragons to each other because "pretty lineages".

 

I really do understand the frustration, but.... Am I the only one who *doesn't* want the knowledge that every single pairing I make up will say "oh yes, let's mate!"? 'Cause... to me, that's boring. I can't pretend to know what it's like to get a refusal on impossible-to-replace pairs, but I know how it feels to have to dig around for another mate and yeah sometimes it takes awhile, but to me it's just part of the challenge. Not all dragons will like each other, and I don't really mind that.

I fully agree with you, I think it would be rather boring. Even if you just get "no interest" or a simple failed attempt, you still have the knowledge that someday you will get an egg.

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It would be pretty great if refusals could be permanent sometimes and reversible other times, but second-gen dragons from raffle prizes and spriter's alts and Thuweds would never refuse each other permanently. And raffle prizes and Guardians of Nature would never refuse CB Holidays permanently (unless it's a GoN combo that can't produce anything). Because those are, most of the time, not something you can replace, but anything else typically can be replaced with enough work if they really don't wanna breed.

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TCA: That seems like over-complicating things waaaaay too much. It also would be telling users that certain dragons are more important rather than letting them decide which dragons should be valued more.

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TCA: That seems like over-complicating things waaaaay too much. It also would be telling users that certain dragons are more important rather than letting them decide which dragons should be valued more.

I agree with you there. those dragons would make a semi-permanent refusal system much more interesting. The challenge, the anticipation... gets me warm and fuzzy.

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Not-all-that-serious suggestion, mostly just to brainstorm:

What about a scroll option that allows you to keep refusals, or turn them off? That would allow the difficulty/challenge/RP reasons to stay there for the people who want it, and I don't see that their gameplay would be affected by how easy someone else's gameplay was. Maybe you could only change your selection one time after you set it, or you could change it every X months, or maybe you were allowed to breed a certain number of times to get the feel of things before you set it once and never got to change it.

Edited by diaveborn

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I'd be okay with a "enable/disable refusals" thing. I mean, if you like the "challenge" (again, though, I fail to see how something you have no ability to influence at all is a "challenge"), you can have it and those of us who don't want to deal with having the perfect mates refuse don't have to.

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If you guys really want a realistic game thing, consider this in mind

Animals in the wild mate with anyone whom they believe are powerful and will pass down their genes to become a more powerful species with their more powerful babies. So in this way, the dragons would only mate with other dragons of their own breed or the other breeds that they think can cover their weaknesses, like, Idk, a brute with a mint. A brute x mint would make either a faster brute that is slightly weaker or a mint that is slightly slower but more stronger. Do you get what I'm saying?

Basically, the point of this post is

Not every game HAS to have realism

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I keep seeing things like "sometimes no means no forever" and "it feels more believable that sometimes refusals stick" and stuff.

 

By that logic, then, shouldn't we have pairs that are bred and produced eggs suddenly refusing? I mean, sometimes a couple will even have a family and then they'll have a falling out and hate each other or something.

 

 

Sometimes, it doesn't have to be about the "logic" behind it--there's a thing about separation of gameplay and story for a reason. Sometimes a mechanic is put in or taken out for gameplay reasons to increase fun/reduce frustration/increase accessibility/etc. even if it has a story/rp/etc. reason why keeping it in/not putting it in would make some kind of sense.

 

I see refusals the same way. I don't really see what they add to the game beyond frustration--especially if it's a hard or impossible to replace egg or, even worse, pair of mates. That's not a challenge--that's a ridiculous frustration that serves little to no purpose, IMO.

Yes, very much this!

 

I support refusals staying in the game because, yes, I do like seeing the game be logical when it can be helped. BUT I would also like to see refusals be possible to reverse, because at the end of the day fun game play > the need for logic in all cases. DC has proven this on multiple occasions--otherwise bred pairs could later refuse, as said here, our dragons wouldn't always let us dump or kill their babies, and trying to stab our dragons might get us killed and cause a "game over" for us! There's a line that needs to be drawn somewhere, and in my opinion it's right at keeping refusals but allowing perseverance (through BSA use, longer cooldowns, whatever) to win the day.

 

Because while I can tolerate a dragon I can easily replace refusing another dragon, and even find some story ideas in it, having a 2g Shimmerkin refuse a 2g Shimmer, or a 2g Winter from Holly refuse a 2g Holly--things I'll likely never be able to replace, and in some cases have paid richly for--is not fun in any way shape or form! ;___;

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Not-all-that-serious suggestion, mostly just to brainstorm:

What about a scroll option that allows you to keep refusals, or turn them off?  That would allow the difficulty/challenge/RP reasons to stay there for the people who want it, and I don't see that their gameplay would be affected by how easy someone else's gameplay was.  Maybe you could only change your selection one time after you set it, or you could change it every X months, or maybe you were allowed to breed a certain number of times to get the feel of things before you set it once and never got to change it.

I actually did think of this, but there WOULD be problems...

 

Even with the limits on how much/often you can change the setting, I feel like almost every person would want no limits because not having it is a disadvantage, especially when trading and breeding for other people is concerned. Sure, if you're ONLY breeding for yourself and you want to risk refusals, you'd turn it off. But why risk a refusal when you could instead run the easy route and have refusals off so you can have a better chance getting eggs and hatchlings to trade or build lineages with?

 

Many probably wouldn't even want to bother with some people that they know have refusals on. Why bother with them when you could set up trades with people you know can get you the eggs?

 

idk it just sounds very disadvantageous. You'd REALLY have to do some balancing to make neither option more/less "favorable". Like maybe with refusals on, though you run the risk of having a refusal, Fertility (and maybe just breeding successfully in general) is increased, with slightly lower "no interest" or unsuccessful attempts. Whereas with the other option, sure you have no refusals, or maybe at least not permanent refusals, but successful breeding (and possibly also Fertility) is nerfed.

 

 

 

I'd...still rather see refusals stay for everyone but ways of resetting through BSAs or AI or whatever implemented instead, though.

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