Artificial Insemination

[LibbyLishly]

I'm incredibly wordy, and for that I do apologize, but please read the whole first post before responding. I will update with people's thoughts, ideas, and concerns as we go unless I decide this was a stupid idea after all.

 

There are a stack of proposed solutions to the refusals issue. Give a BSA to the Fleshcrownes, give a BSA to all Valentines, make it only available once a year, make the cooldown 3-6 months, etcetera. Personally, I support all of those suggestions so long as they're not just a one-shot chance at overturning a refusal. However, if the powers that be (hi TJ!) decide that none of those are going to happen, I would like to approach the situation from another angle.

 

First of all, I believe that refusals are a leftover from before lineages were viewable (please correct me on this point if I'm wrong) but now are simply a massive nuisance to those whose gamestyle involves breeding for lineages. Furthermore, if we are dragon breeders, there should be ways around two dragons simply not getting along.

 

I know this is already getting wordy, so let me simplify:

--- DragonCave takes place in a world with medieval technology, but works in a great deal of mythical and legendary elements as well.

--- Some authorities place the first instance of ancient artificial insemination in 1322, when an Arab chief used artificial methods for the successful insemination of a prize mare.

--- Legends have artificial insemination popping up occasionally, though it admittedly wasn't a widespread practice.

 

Thus, my thought is this: using a combination of magic and pseudoscience, why not make an action for breeders to artificially deliver a male dragon's genetic code either to a female or to an unfertilized egg? (Yes, this could tie into the unfertilized egg suggestion that has been proposed as well.)

 

I want to avoid making the reasoning behind this action as simple as "Because magic", though that's the entire reason for Purples giving fertility, Magi teleporting, Greens causing Earthquakes, freezing, and reviving. That's why I've introduced the extra element of existing science - and science that could conceivably have been in existence during medieval times, and likely was before that.

 

I do NOT know what such an action should be called, or what the cooldown would look like. However, I do think it should be incredibly expensive and a last-ditch resort if a pairing refuses. What would the cost be? I don't know. Magic sapped from the scroll for a couple of weeks so that NO magical action or BSA would be available? All growing slots filled for a week? I really don't know. It would have to be logical, of course. That's what I have you people for, right?

 

Could this be used for pairs that didn't refuse? Sure, but it should be so expensive that it would be pointless to do so.

 

And no, it should NOT have guaranteed success. I'd prefer to see the success rate be comparable to standard breeding success rates: the action would produce a viable egg in place of producing an egg at all, or the procedure would be unsuccessful in place of mates showing now interest.

 

Logically, a refusal being FOREVER makes no sense. In the real world, people can change their minds about others who they used to despise. That's why I actually support the BSA refusal reversals more than this idea. However, since this is a game packed with magic and breeding is a central element of gameplay, why not throw this into the pot for consideration?

 

Note to mods: if this topic is deemed inappropriate or if you just need to change the title because of appropriateness concerns, I totally understand. It is my hope that the conversation will remain as tasteful as possible.

Edited May 29, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[LadyLyzar]

I don't think the topic nor idea are necessarily inappropriate, but from a roleplay perspective, I don't see how it fits.

 

DC dragons are clearly more intelligent than the average animal that AI would be typically used on. Regardless of magic or pseudoscience, if they hate each other, they hate each other. IMO the female would be smart enough to know what you are doing and I imagine she would outright refuse to participate.

[Naruhina_94]

I like anything that allows dragon to breed again after they rejected each other, but this suggestion doesn't feel comfortable to me as others.

I would prefer that my dragons could accept each other and not be forced to have an egg. The simple fact that a dragon could feel no interest for another one makes them able to do choices, so I wouldn't like to create an egg at all costs.

Don't get me wrong, in real life I agree with the artificial insemination, but at the same time I think that at least in the DC world where magic exists there could be something more romantic

 

When 2 dragons refuse each other is not for a breeding problem or because the female doesn't get pregnant: it's beacuse they don't like each other.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[Lythiaren]

I want to avoid making the reasoning behind this action as simple as "Because magic", though that's the entire reason for Pinks influencing, [...]

For the record, the influence BSA is actually based on reptile eggs and the way nest temperature affects the sex of a developing egg, which is also why you can't influence eggs that are too old. Pinks are just really good at figuring out when the nest is the right temperature, thanks to sensitive pads on their paws.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Lythiaren

[JavaTigress]

For the record, the influence BSA is actually based on reptile eggs and the way nest temperature affects the sex of a developing egg, which is also why you can't influence eggs that are too old. Pinks are just really good at figuring out when the nest is the right temperature, thanks to sensitive pads on their paws.

That is... cool actually. I had always wondered how they did it.

[edwardelricfreak]

Would be nice if the Pink's description said ANYTHING about these "sensitive pads". I will always and forever imagine that they wiggle their tail spades over an egg and magic dust sprinkles all over the egg that influences their gender, because I didn't know until last year that they had some "sensitive pads" at all.

 

Anyway, that aside...

 

Dragons refuse not because they don't "get along" but because they don't think the dragon they refused was a suitable mate. This is a genetic thing as well as personal preference. It's why Neglecteds aren't breedable; it's not so much they aren't fertile (although that is a likely case) but because even if they are fertile, they have poor eggs/sperm that won't yield very healthy babies. That and their bodies are frail and might not last through a certain breed's mating habits.

 

That said, I still support anything that can reset refusals or even do what this suggestion says. Considering that yes, in the real world we do take the eggs and sperm from animals that refuse to breed normally and use artificial insemination (or just grow something in the lab), especially when it's an endangered species.

 

Course I don't think we should be able to take just any dragon at any time and do it, so I do support the failure rate.

 

I think I'm just going to watch the thread for a while and form more of a decent opinion. o3o Right now I'm for it, but mainly because I'm just for anything that resets a refusal, even if it is only one shot.

[TheGrox]

Would be nice if the Pink's description said ANYTHING about these "sensitive pads". I will always and forever imagine that they wiggle their tail spades over an egg and magic dust sprinkles all over the egg that influences their gender, because I didn't know until last year that they had some "sensitive pads" at all.

Maybe that'll be something for the encyclopedia? xP

 

 

Anyhow, I think I'd prefer some of the other suggestions out there for reversing refusals and such, but something to reverse refusals would be good.

[edwardelricfreak]

Maybe that'll be something for the encyclopedia? xP

I hope so! It seems like it plays a big part in the Pink's BSA so I'm curious as to why that detail isn't in the description. :U Not like it's a long sentence anyway. Yeah, so maybe descriptions used to be shorter, but whatevs.

[cyradis4]

I hope so! It seems like it plays a big part in the Pink's BSA so I'm curious as to why that detail isn't in the description. :U Not like it's a long sentence anyway. Yeah, so maybe descriptions used to be shorter, but whatevs.

Probably because Pinks have been around since long before BSAs were, so their description would have had to be changed after the fact.

 

As for this... I'm not fond of this, but depending on the cost and failure rate, might work.

 

C4.

[Psychotic Khaotic]

Would be nice if the Pink's description said ANYTHING about these "sensitive pads". I will always and forever imagine that they wiggle their tail spades over an egg and magic dust sprinkles all over the egg that influences their gender, because I didn't know until last year that they had some "sensitive pads" at all.

Funny, I never really thought about it, but whenever mental images of influence popped into my head, it was always of the dragon staring reeeeaaaallly hard at the egg, almost as if to will it by magical stare beams to be its gender.

.____________.

 

I guess that's just how my mind made sense of influence not working 100% of the time.

[LibbyLishly]

I love how even the potential supporters of this position are about as "Ehhhh..." about it as I am. I think that speaks more strongly to the problems with the current refusal system than anything else.

 

I don't think the topic nor idea are necessarily inappropriate, but from a roleplay perspective, I don't see how it fits.

 

DC dragons are clearly more intelligent than the average animal that AI would be typically used on. Regardless of magic or pseudoscience, if they hate each other, they hate each other. IMO the female would be smart enough to know what you are doing and I imagine she would outright refuse to participate.

 

I like anything that allows dragon to breed again after they rejected each other, but this suggestion doesn't feel comfortable to me as others.

I would prefer that my dragons could accept each other and not be forced to have an egg. The simple fact that a dragon could feel no interest for another one makes them able to do choices, so I wouldn't like to create an egg at all costs.

Don't get me wrong, in real life I agree with the artificial insemination, but at the same time I think that at least in the DC world where magic exists there could be something more romantic wink.gif

 

When 2 dragons refuse each other is not for a breeding problem or because the female doesn't get pregnant: it's beacuse they don't like each other.

 

I both agree and disagree with these statements. In my own RP, I treat my dragons as if they're basically people, including the drakes, even though the creator said they should be of about the intelligence level of dogs (which, incidentally, really bugs me, because it smacks of old-school racism with the majority races of dragons treating the drakes like they're as stupid as lower animals and refusing to breed with them... but I digress).

 

HOWEVER, I think that the game itself treats dragons as a highly intelligent animal, just above the level of horses (and any horse lover will tell you that a horse can act almost human at times). That's why I don't think this is too far outside the realm of possibility based on DC rules.

 

I prefer to RP mating as if there is an element of romance to it; I have a few dragons who have mates for life. But in the end, the game basically says we can breed, abandon, kill, freeze, and do a number of other things with the dragons we own. Just look at what we already can do with a dragon's offspring at any time - kill it, freeze it, trade it away. So I would think that between magic and science, we breeders could be tricksy enough for it to work.

 

Again, though, I really prefer the BSA suggestions, as long as they're not one-shot attempts, to my own suggestion here.

 

For the record, the influence BSA is actually based on reptile eggs and the way nest temperature affects the sex of a developing egg, which is also why you can't influence eggs that are too old. Pinks are just really good at figuring out when the nest is the right temperature, thanks to sensitive pads on their paws.

 

AHA! Thank you for that information, Lyth. I hope to see that in the Encyclopedia. Editing my OP accordingly.

[Aniusia483]

Actually, I feel DC draogns are very much animal like and ver non-human like when I consider their descriptions and frequent matings without any special bond with any mate, especially while crossbreeding. They don't fall in love etc. so I don't think they should be treaten any more like humans than average animals are. A player can state their dragons are more humanlike (like I do, having my dragons in love - so as a result they mate within strict monogamy) but from the point of view of the game itself, they're just average animals with magical powers.

So I can see no issue about any kind of artifical insemination and I see no reason for permanent refulars besides sth like inbrbreeding(animals avoid breeding with relatives, biodiversitly related stuff manily) or crossbreeding(but now depends on if DC dragons are in fact breeds or rather species with all those major differences between them; animals don't really breed with other species and if they do, the offspring is verly likely to be infertile), no valid reason for refusals within the same breed/species. The no interest makes sense, but not the permanent refusals... not in the context of DC.

 

Though I'm wondering how aritfical insemination should make the egg infertile? Actually, the artificially inseminated offspring would work exactly the same as if it would be inseminated naturally... The only difference is in fact no mating involved to create life^^; The offspring is perfectly functioning. I can't see why DC dragons should be any different here...

[LibbyLishly]

Though I'm wondering how aritfical insemination should make the egg infertile? Actually, the artificially inseminated offspring would work exactly the same as if it would be inseminated naturally... The only difference is in fact no mating involved to create life^^; The offspring is perfectly functioning. I can't see why DC dragons should be any different here...

To clarify, AI wouldn't create an unfertilized egg; it could possibly fertilize a pre-existing unfertilized egg (hence tying this suggestion in to the suggestion to have unfertilized eggs for sprite collection purposes). Without that, AI would just be used on the female dragon.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'd be okay with this as a last ditch resort (like, if TJ shot down all the other refusal reversal methods), but otherwise I'd rather see one of the other options. Convincing two dragons to get along seems plausible, but forcing a female dragon to carry the kid of a male she hates seems a bit sketchy. ;;

[kerrikins]

As silly as it is, this is a bit uncomfortable for me. Maybe because I view our dragons as pretty intelligent and I don't like the idea of 'forcing' a dragon to have an egg...

[HeatherMarie]

I'd be okay with this as a last ditch resort (like, if TJ shot down all the other refusal reversal methods), but otherwise I'd rather see one of the other options. Convincing two dragons to get along seems plausible, but forcing a female dragon to carry the kid of a male she hates seems a bit sketchy. ;;

THIS perfectly sums up why I think this is a horrible, icky idea. It's just.... Wrong. There are plenty of anti-refusal suggestions that hinge on reconnecting, retrying, perhaps even some sort of love magic (Valentines), and all of those are completely understandable. I am not at ALL comfortable with forcing a dragon to become pregnant from a male that she's already completely refused.

[ridshadowfox]

DC dragons are clearly more intelligent than the average animal that AI would be typically used on.

They use AI on humans, for many reasons. One reason is a woman might want to have children but can't find a man to love her.

 

With that being said yes I agree that it feels like it would be a forced thing; unless like my example above is the case. If the female really likes the male, but the male has no use for her I could see this working.

 

As intelligent as dragons are or are not, I can see some females still having instincts that make them want to have offspring to a particular male. Think this idea needs some more refining along those ideals.

[LibbyLishly]

In case it helps anyone lose the "ick" factor a bit, dragons don't actually carry their babies to term; that's why we catch eggs. Also relevant: dragons lay their eggs and if they catch a whiff of human on it, they abandon the baby forever. Because of this, I'm not terribly impressed with their intelligence outside of personal RP. Just pointing out some of the game mechanics that are important in separating personal RP from game canon. I mean, if the dragons actually WERE like people, I never would have suggested this in the first place because ew.

 

To further combat that concern, though, what about this suggestion in relation to the unfertilized egg suggestion? If a female lays an unfertilized egg, why not have that egg become a candidate for AI?

 

I feel like I need to keep repeating this, but I really want to see a BSA (I'm more and more in favor of the Valentine one over all) that acts as a reconciler rather than something like this. However, I really don't give a hang how it works as long as I can start undoing refusals - and I know I'm not the only one that feels like that. I'm definitely not pushing for this idea in particular, but it's worth throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks in this case.

[Lurhstaap]

Agree with a lot of what LibbyLishly said. People really need to not apply their own internal headcanon when evaluating suggestions in general, and especially ones like this. It's the GAME'S CANON that matters, not individual players' ideas. And game canon is that all dragons, and especially drakes (which BTW is not anything like racism because drakes' creator explicitly said that drakes DO have intelligence similar to an animal, so it's not prejudice, it's THE TRUTH - but that aside) are of animal-like intelligence. Perhaps intelligent animals capable of communicating through telepathy, like Pernese fire lizards, but still not of human level intellectual capacity. There are a handful of species in the game that might be debateable on, but most species are clearly described as animals, complete with some ecological data.

 

I also should note that when humans use AI, as often as not, they don't have a clue who the semen donor was. Anonymous semen donation is not uncommon and not everyone cares to know who he was. So there's no reason the females would necessarily know (or care) that the semen came from X dragon they loathe.

 

In fact, come to think of it, it could be a negotiated compromise between a human-intellect dragon and the human breeder - I need you to carry this egg for my breeding purposes, but you hate the male whose genes I need to use, so will you do this via AI for me? The failure rate would then represent those females who say 'No way' regardless as well as failure of the actual technique.

 

In truth I kind of like this idea. It seems to make sense within the range of what we can already do with our dragons. (And by the way, those of you who think of your dragons as human-intelligent, how do you deal with the fact that you are a slave owner? There's no getting around it - the way DC is set up, if the dragons have humanlike intellect, then they are our slaves. Thus I personally prefer to see most of them as animal-like in mentality, even if very smart, while the few of humanlike intelligence participate for their own reasons and get things out of the deal - but I also have written some descriptions that emphasize the ethically ambiguous or even ugly aspects of DC's setup if the dragons are held to be humanlike-intelligent.)

Edited May 31, 2014 by Lurhstaap

[Obscure_Trash]

As I breed more and get more refusals, my stances has changed from "meh, it's a part of the game" to "uggggggh ;~;" so I'm not opposed to some change to how breeding/refusals work, but this suggestion just seems... kinda out of place for DC's breeding system (name aside, just the mechanics)? Either like spontaneous egg creation or... just a way to get around breeding. And I think if we're just going to go the route of re-trying breeding, we should just make suggestions on how to re-try breeding. xP

[LibbyLishly]

As I breed more and get more refusals, my stances has changed from "meh, it's a part of the game" to "uggggggh ;~;" so I'm not opposed to some change to how breeding/refusals work, but this suggestion just seems... kinda out of place for DC's breeding system (name aside, just the mechanics)? Either like spontaneous egg creation or... just a way to get around breeding. And I think if we're just going to go the route of re-trying breeding, we should just make suggestions on how to re-try breeding. xP

Let me assure you, it's not spontaneous egg creation or a way to get around breeding. As I emphasized in my first post, the action should be so expensive in some way that using it as anything but a last-ditch effort to get an egg from two refusing dragons would be inane, and that it should NOT have guaranteed success - that I would prefer to have a success/failure rate similar to normal breeding. That is in no way, shape, or form spontaneous egg creation or getting around breeding.

[edwardelricfreak]

I'm not so much against the mechanics, I would just prefer some of the other things.

 

I support this for what it is, though.

 

I don't think it's completely "fitting" but I wouldn't say it's so outlandish that it would never ever make sense in DC's time. Yes, DC is in a more medieval time, but it's also not EARTH because they have dragons and we don't. I'd have to say that it's plausible they were more advanced in certain technologies, and this could have been one. Considering how much flak I've gotten for the Dragoons for suggesting there are kingdoms that have DRAGON RIDERS of all things in their armies...people seem scared to incorporate stuff into the DC world and it's a bit annoying to me.

 

I would like this in tandem with other stuff like suggested BSA's for the Valentines/Fleshcrownes. After you use up the BSA, this would be your last ditch attempt before the BSA is freed up. It would only be used by those desperately trying to make certain lineages. I like it for that.

 

Just be sure that it's still done in such a way to not seem utterly terrible to use. No one wants to "force" their dragons into doing anything, yet deep down they'd probably really just want to do anything to get that pretty lineage. I'm not saying they're horrible, I'm saying that, judging from many reactions I've seen in different threads, people get seriously PO'd whenever their X doesn't want to breed with their Y. (*koffkoff* Guardians of Nature *koffkoff*)

[LadyLyzar]

The reason that I give for our dragons' intelligence is that they have the ability to telepathically speak. This suggests much higher levels of conscious thought than any regular animal. They may not be as smart as humans, but IMO are much more so than say, a horse or dog.

 

Every dragon on the site has this in their general breed description - even the drakes. Granted, for drakes that might be a bit of an oversight since they are explicitly supposed to be less intelligent than their dragon brethren.

 

Also, I should have been more specific regarding use of AI on humans vs. animals. Animals do not choose to be AI'ed - their owners and/or keepers make that decision for them. Even if a woman does not know who the donor is, she still made that choice.

 

This is why the suggestion of AI on a female dragon bothers me quite a bit. I think she'd be smart enough to know what you were up to, and tell you in no uncertain terms to take a hike!

 

That being said, an unfertilized egg is a different matter. IF such eggs were "abandoned" by their mothers because the mothers did not see them as viable, perhaps something could be done from that point.

[Obscure_Trash]

Let me assure you, it's not spontaneous egg creation or a way to get around breeding. As I emphasized in my first post, the action should be so expensive in some way that using it as anything but a last-ditch effort to get an egg from two refusing dragons would be inane, and that it should NOT have guaranteed success - that I would prefer to have a success/failure rate similar to normal breeding. That is in no way, shape, or form spontaneous egg creation or getting around breeding.

I don't think getting around breeding inherently bad. I simply meant it's a way to get an egg without having to actually breed. It seems like you'll be given an egg with a lineage the same as if you'd bred. It's a way to get a bred egg without breeding an egg. "Get a refusal when breeding, well just science yourself that egg up!" IE a way to get around breeding. It's not inherently bad, I just don't really know how I particularly feel about the idea.

 

don't think it's completely "fitting" but I wouldn't say it's so outlandish that it would never ever make sense in DC's time.

 

Just to expand a bit, it's not the setting or explanation that I think is out of place. It just seems... oddly complex compared to our other actions. Again, is that a bad thing? Not really. I just personally feel it doesn't really fit in DC (and I can't count the number of times I've said this and TJ's then stepped in to be like nah, I think it fits concept wise, lol, so I just want to make sure everyone knows I'm not posting with any authority on this, it's just how I feel about it). But yeah, I just feel like some of the other suggestions on this would flow better with the game and still give people the option of working with refused dragons.

 

~

 

I'm trying to put my feelings into more articulate words so I can help be constructive, but it's really not so much any technical problem I have with this, I just don't particularly feel it makes the most sense for DC, especially considering the number of suggestions that have come up/the number of options we have to support.