Decrease Summon Cooldown to 1 Week

[Fuzzbucket]

The way you say "Upped the chances" makes it sound like he did increase it to an almost certainty that you'd summon - which is definitely not the case. I'd rather have more often summoning with the same chances, than a flat increase on chance, as a 2 weeks cycle is a lot harder to uphold. I can breed my shimmers and metals regularly because its every week. make it 2 weeks, and I'll probably end up breeding them 8 days, 8 days, 12 days, 8 days, 8 days, 12 days.

 

 

btw: this suggestion was made without taking the altered changes from TJ into consideration - I still think 1 week would be a lot more logical given how other stuff on the site works.

No - I didn't for one moment suggest that everyone would get one fast. That is part of the point of them. Who said everything had to get easier all the time ?

 

Why is a week more "logical" ? We have two BSAs with a two week cooldown (fertility and incubate) - as well as one with two days (teleport (not counting splash of course.) Why shouldn't summon be two weeks as well ?

[whitebaron]

No - I didn't for one moment suggest that everyone would get one fast. That is part of the point of them. Who said everything had to get easier all the time ?

 

Why is a week more "logical" ? We have two BSAs with a two week cooldown (fertility and incubate) - as well as one with two days (teleport (not counting splash of course.) Why shouldn't summon be two weeks as well ?

neither reds nor pinks do feel like its two weeks. (and if you remember, I said so before.)

 

I incubate (and influence) everything I do, and the last time I ran out of incubates was over a year ago, even with large AP clearing sprees.

 

so its - incubate, bite, influence - always available.

splash - useless

purple - debatable

teleport - depends on your usage, but I have a project that needs magis...

 

all in all, nothing has a real cooldown except summoning. and I figure, many people that play as long will have the same experience - or an entirely different playstyle, where it just does not matter anyway.

 

[Psycho Cat]

It doesn't matter if it feels like a year! It's always going to be two weeks, even if you're in a coma and only wake to use a two week cooldown BSA. And besides, if a dragon that can breathe fire needs to wait two weeks to do it again, shouldn't three god-like dragons have to wait that long, if not longer, to do some sort of complex summoning ceremony?

 

Not only does it not make sense from a RP standpoint, it's how GoNs work. They're rare. Just because you're impatient doesn't mean you should want them to be easier. The point of a GoN is to be special, and now that they can breed you should just try harder to get them, especially since the chances to get them have been raised.

[Fuzzbucket]

neither reds nor pinks do feel like its two weeks. (and if you remember, I said so before.)

 

I incubate (and influence) everything I do, and the last time I ran out of incubates was over a year ago, even with large AP clearing sprees.

 

so its - incubate, bite, influence - always available.

splash - useless

purple - debatable

teleport - depends on your usage, but I have a project that needs magis...

 

all in all, nothing has a real cooldown except summoning. and I figure, many people that play as long will have the same experience - or an entirely different playstyle, where it just does not matter anyway.

Pinks are only one week - not surprising it doesn't feel like 2. And Magis are only TWO DAYS !

 

None of these seems like any time at all, to me, either - as I have armies of all of them - I can't remember when I last didn't have one available when needed. (And I now think fertility DOES do something, as I've used it i desperation a few times recently and to my VERY great surprise ...)

 

Summon only feels like longer because it rarely succeeds. But that is because it is SUPPOSED to succeed less often than other BSAs. That doesn't mean it should be made easier. I think you'd only get more frequent failures - one every week instead of one every two weeks.

[Nectaris]

No - I didn't for one moment suggest that everyone would get one fast. That is part of the point of them. Who said everything had to get easier all the time ?

 

Why is a week more "logical" ? We have two BSAs with a two week cooldown (fertility and incubate) - as well as one with two days (teleport (not counting splash of course.) Why shouldn't summon be two weeks as well ?

I will point out the difference between incubate and summon. Incubate is with an individual dragon, if you have enough reds, you never feel a bit of an impact for their cooldown(I have over 100, I am never out of incubates). Summon on the other hand, is a scroll-wide cooldown. You could have a thousand trios and the cooldown would be two weeks. So yes, you DO feel the summon cooldown more than the incubate cooldown.

 

To be clear, I don't really care either way, I just kind of dislike the argument that the cooldown being the same length as the other makes it the same thing.

[TheGrox]

In all honesty, this whole thread to me seems like another "I don't have one so they should be easier to get" kind of thing (in general terms, not aimed towards anyone specifically), which I see all too often on DC.

 

GoNs are meant to be difficult to get. Halving the cooldown is effectively doubling the chances of getting one, which somehow doesn't seem right to me. TJ has already increased the chances (by how much, nobody knows, and I still think it's too early to say), so why increase the chances more? Besides this, the current cooldown is fine as it is, I don't see any reason, RP or otherwise, to change it.

 

The discussion about other BSAs is kinda irrelevant, because they work so differently that they aren't really comparable.

 

If we really must halve the cooldown, then the chances should also be halved so that it is effectively the same chance as before. But I don't see the point in doing anything.

[Fuzzbucket]

I will point out the difference between incubate and summon. Incubate is with an individual dragon, if you have enough reds, you never feel a bit of an impact for their cooldown(I have over 100, I am never out of incubates). Summon on the other hand, is a scroll-wide cooldown. You could have a thousand trios and the cooldown would be two weeks. So yes, you DO feel the summon cooldown more than the incubate cooldown.

 

To be clear, I don't really care either way, I just kind of dislike the argument that the cooldown being the same length as the other makes it the same thing.

Fair enough; I see what you mean - but the idea that it should be a week for consistency of some kind... no.

 

In all honesty, this whole thread to me seems like another "I don't have one so they should be easier to get" kind of thing (in general terms, not aimed towards anyone specifically), which I see all too often on DC.

 

GoNs are meant to be difficult to get. Halving the cooldown is effectively doubling the chances of getting one, which somehow doesn't seem right to me. TJ has already increased the chances (by how much, nobody knows, and I still think it's too early to say), so why increase the chances more? Besides this, the current cooldown is fine as it is, I don't see any reason, RP or otherwise, to change it.

 

The discussion about other BSAs is kinda irrelevant, because they work so differently that they aren't really comparable.

 

If we really must halve the cooldown, then the chances should also be halved so that it is effectively the same chance as before. But I don't see the point in doing anything.

 

And yet again I find myself agreeing with you.

[lightningsky]

I have to agree with Grox. I see no problem with how it is now. A lot of people have summoned successfully with the 2 week limit, and while it has taken a lot of people awhile to summon a GoN...with the chance upped and affected by how many sets of Trios you have, everyone will get theirs with time and patience.

[pinkgothic]

In all honesty, this whole thread to me seems like another "I don't have one so they should be easier to get" kind of thing (in general terms, not aimed towards anyone specifically), which I see all too often on DC.

So how do you explain people like me who already have two GoNs and are entirely unconcerned about their third, but aren't opposed to this change?

 

GoNs have just always been a source of massive frustration. I'm not in favour of making them as easy to get as a common, or even a CB trio, but there's a lot of space between that and the (at least previously) existing GoN rarity.

 

I figure it's worth waiting to see how the new Summon chances pan out for people, though, but I'm certainly not opposed to reducing the time between Summons.

[Vhale]

/raise hand

 

Have two, also don't mind the week change. but, I'm a long-time mmo player who has been on the bad end of RNG more than once. So I have empathy for those on the losing end now. Someone is going to be the poor SOB that never gets one in 5 years. I'm very much in favor of any mechanic that disallows that happening. That's my opinion, I do have a right to it.

[RainDear]

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

I think a player who has made 2 years worth of attempts should get a GON. Waiting and trying for two years seems to me to be difficult enough for even this special dragon.

 

Edit:By the way, I do have my two. I will probably try to get a third, but maybe not as conscientiously as I did for the first 2. I just personally find it unfair that some have been trying since the beginning and don't have one.

Edited May 28, 2014 by raindear

[Obscure_Trash]

In all honesty, this whole thread to me seems like another "I don't have one so they should be easier to get" kind of thing (in general terms, not aimed towards anyone specifically), which I see all too often on DC.

This could probably be turned around to also say anybody against it "already has theirs and probably got lucky so of course they're not worried about the third one" and I really don't think either is an actual argument against the other side. So people who don't have theirs want one? So? Maybe it's been three years and they still don't have one. Maybe they have fifteen sets of trios they've worked hard catching and breeding and still don't have one. Are they not allowed to be a little frustrated? Again, I'm neither for nor against the raise, but I just don't think either of these is a good argument for or against the suggestion. o3o

[Luli]

Okay, so reducing the cooldown time would double the chances of getting a GoN. Instead of it taking two years to successfully summon one, it would take one, per say. Does that *really* make a huge difference? No. I don't see why people are getting up in arms about the time being reduced, they wouldn't become easy to get, yes, easier, but still incredibly hard.

 

Reducing the time would just help a little with the frustration everyone feels when they've been waiting two weeks to try again and then see it all fails in a second of the page loading. Having to wait years to get one honestly seems to be a little excessive, a game stops being fun when you spend more time stressing out than enjoying it. I've been a member for a long time now, but I've gone and come several times as a product of frustration for various reasons.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Luli

[edwardelricfreak]

Okay, so reducing the cooldown time would double the chances of getting a GoN. Instead of it taking two years to successfully summon one, it would take one, per say.

Well, no, not really. Your chances aren't really upped, there's just more opportunities for those chances. It's not the same as doubling the chances, because doubling chances means the chances get doubled.

 

It would make it a bit easier, I guess, in the sense that you don't have to wait as long to be disappointed again. c:

[Luli]

Well, no, not really. Your chances aren't really upped, there's just more opportunities for those chances. It's not the same as doubling the chances, because doubling chances means the chances get doubled.

 

It would make it a bit easier, I guess, in the sense that you don't have to wait as long to be disappointed again. c:

Yes, that's what I meant. You would have double as many opportunities to summon a GoN. I thought chance = opportunity, my bad if that's grammatically incorrect (foreign speaker here, woops)

Edited May 28, 2014 by Luli

[edwardelricfreak]

Well, chance does equal opportunity, but that's one definition. In this case, chances of summoning a GoN = the percentage chance (aka probability), not opportunity chance.

Edited May 28, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[CNR4806]

Well, chance does equal opportunity, but that's one definition. In this case, chances of summoning a GoN = the percentage chance (aka probability), not opportunity chance.

... which is the wrong scope of viewing this suggestion. This suggestion practically doubles the chance of anyone getting a GoN over the same timespan of two weeks, given that they summon on time.

 

While I'm not against and in fact support the idea itself (as stated in my first post, which is the 3rd post of this thread), I am disappointed that some are trying to make it look like it isn't going to up the overall chance of anyone getting a GoN, because it is the entire point of the suggestion - to make the GoNs easier to get.

 

 

And, before anyone suggest that making GoNs easier to get isn't the whole point of the suggestion, let me offer a supplementary suggestion to fix that just in case - HALVE the chance of an individual summon while halving the cooldown time. There, take this and there should be no more "don't make GoNs easier" people left to bother you on your grand quest on an IMHO meaningless suggestion.

[Fuzzbucket]

... which is the wrong scope of viewing this suggestion. This suggestion practically doubles the chance of anyone getting a GoN over the same timespan of two weeks, given that they summon on time.

 

While I'm not against and in fact support the idea itself (as stated in my first post, which is the 3rd post of this thread), I am disappointed that some are trying to make it look like it isn't going to up the overall chance of anyone getting a GoN, because it is the entire point of the suggestion - to make the GoNs easier to get.

 

 

And, before anyone suggest that making GoNs easier to get isn't the whole point of the suggestion, let me offer a supplementary suggestion to fix that just in case - HALVE the chance of an individual summon while halving the cooldown time. There, take this and there should be no more "don't make GoNs easier" people left to bother you on your grand quest on an IMHO meaningless suggestion.

Well, no, it doesn't. With RNG, with every summon, you start out from scratch at the same chance level. It's like throwing dice. Random.

 

Let's not fall into the Gambler's fallacy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

 

But also - we KNOW that TJ has built some stuff into the algorithm - but none of us knows what.

[lamel]

This could probably be turned around to also say anybody against it "already has theirs and probably got lucky so of course they're not worried about the third one" and I really don't think either is an actual argument against the other side. So people who don't have theirs want one? So? Maybe it's been three years and they still don't have one. Maybe they have fifteen sets of trios they've worked hard catching and breeding and still don't have one. Are they not allowed to be a little frustrated? Again, I'm neither for nor against the raise, but I just don't think either of these is a good argument for or against the suggestion. o3o

thanks SockPuppet Strangler - i am frustrated about this DC Birthday, because i couldn't participate (well, yes, the summon try ) and i did look forward to the event and did think about it like everybody else here.

and now i think about 4 years of more or less regular, unsuccessfull trys and how long it will take, untill i just get one GoN and then i think about how long it will take to get even one of the new breeds... really no joy.

 

i still think, a fair suggestion would be, summoning every week for the people without GoN; when they have one, summoning evey 2 weeks and every three (or four?) weeks for the third, as compensation if you want for the "double"-chance from the one-week-summoning.

[Luli]

... which is the wrong scope of viewing this suggestion. This suggestion practically doubles the chance of anyone getting a GoN over the same timespan of two weeks, given that they summon on time.

 

While I'm not against and in fact support the idea itself (as stated in my first post, which is the 3rd post of this thread), I am disappointed that some are trying to make it look like it isn't going to up the overall chance of anyone getting a GoN, because it is the entire point of the suggestion - to make the GoNs easier to get.

 

 

And, before anyone suggest that making GoNs easier to get isn't the whole point of the suggestion, let me offer a supplementary suggestion to fix that just in case - HALVE the chance of an individual summon while halving the cooldown time. There, take this and there should be no more "don't make GoNs easier" people left to bother you on your grand quest on an IMHO meaningless suggestion.

It would be easier, but still incredibly hard, it won't be easy because it's easier! Some of the comments on this thread talk about it like those who support it are asking for GoNs to become common or uncommon or rare or even very rare. By halving the waiting time, the change won't be that dramatic, they won't stop being extremely rare. Doubling the opportunities won't double the chances, if you have a 1% chance of getting a GoN, by being able to summon one twice as often, you won't have a 2% chance. It'll still be a 1% chance every single time you try, you won't get any luckier for having a second chance every fortnight.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Luli

[Fuzzbucket]

It would be easier, but still incredibly hard, it won't be easy because it's easier! Some of the comments on this thread talk about it like those who support it are asking for GoNs to become common or uncommon or rare or even very rare. By halving the waiting time, the change won't be that dramatic, they won't stop being extremely rare. Doubling the opportunities won't double the chances, if you have a 1% chance of getting a GoN, by being able to summon one twice as often, you won't have a 2% chance. It'll still be a 1% chance every single time you try, you won't get any luckier for having a second chance every fortnight.

Exactly. You get to be disappointed twice as often, is all. (I don't actually mind about this either way, but lowering the cooldown won't up the chance of GETTING a GoN; it would just mean you could fail more freqently. That's fine if that's what you want.

 

Personally I thought failing once every 2 weeks was quite sad enough.

[olympe]

Actually, twice as many tries for summoning don't double the cances for success. No matter what the odds are. That's simple math.

 

Example : Success rate of 10%

You try to summon once. In 90% of all cases, your Summon will fail.. In 10% of all cases, you'll be lucky and succeed

 

Now, you try to summon twice. Each try has the same chances for success as the single try as described above.

 

In this scenario, you have a 81% chance of failure. With a chance of 18%, you'll get lucky and get one GoN for your efforts. The missing 1% will be the super-lucky users who summon twice and get 2 GoNs for their "trouble".

 

 

Let's try the ten-times summoning (with no limits - because otherwise, some people wouldn't need to summon a 4th/5th/.../10th time.)

 

In nearly 35% of all cases (34,86784401%, to be accurate), you won't get a single GoN. In nearly 39% of all cases, you'll get exactly one GoN. A little over 19% of all players doing this will get two GoN for ten summons, and the rest - roughly 6% - will summon even more GoNs than that.

 

True, the chance of (at least one) success for 10 summons is pretty high, with a good 65%. But it's not 10 times 10%, which would be a 100% guarantee that everyone summoning that often will get a GoN. Chance just doesn't work that way.

Edited May 29, 2014 by olympe

[TheGrox]

You are indeed correct olympe. The point is, though, that decreasing the cooldown does significantly increase the chance of summoning successfully in a given time period. I just wish people would stop trying to suggest it wouldn't increase at all...

Edited May 29, 2014 by TheGrox

[olympe]

That, of course, is quite true. If you throw two dice, you have a significantly higher chance of getting a 6.

[Pikabubba]

I'm not opposed to the suggestion. I was able to summon both my GoNs pretty easily. Before- it was just a goal to have them on your scroll. Now that they can breed, people want the new dragons. For those who don't have GoNs, reading the trade posts...there are many people asking a lot for their 2nd gen babies. Many of those being not affordable. So it becomes frustrating to those wanting them. I know they can just wait it out but maybe they don't want to wait so long.

Increasing the chances by making it one week does increase the chance of getting one as well as increase the chance of fails but it does give those more hope of getting one (or more).