Animal Rights VS. Welfare

[Kith]

As for the insect idea...that's an interesting idea, but as Birdtrainer mentioned, they can have viruses or parasites. There are people that are afraid to feed their LIZARDS crickets, much less humans.

This doesn't really have much bearing on the issue at large, since any food animal can have them. If crickets, mealworms, beetles, and things were raised for food, the farmers would have as much reason to keep their insects free of diseases and parasites as those who keep cows, chickens, sheep, etc. Also, for anyone interested, ASAPscience did a short overview on human consumption of insects recently, and it's up on YouTube.

 

Most of the fear of feeding whole animals to pets has to do with feeding them live prey, which carries the chance of injury to the pet as well as the question of where to keep the prey animal(s) the pet doesn't consume at the time.

[Daxillionyx]

I'm sorry, but I find the idea of Americans letting insects become part of our staple diet quite laughable. I'm not laughing at the part about eating insects, no. I know insects do provide some good stuff, and when they are prepared correctly they can taste good too.

No, I'm laughing because I know most Americans would shudder at the though of eating insects, period.

[Mondat]

Animal rights groups, such as PETA, want nonhuman animals to have legal rights equal to humans. They oppose:

Hunting, no matter the reason, even if it's for self-defense.

All zoos, aquaria, farms, and pets, no matter how well-managed.

Animals testing.

Any meat or fish consumption by humans.

Humans wearing any animal fur, skin, scales, etc.

Taxidermy.

To me, these groups are nuts. When we humans weren't as civilized as we're now it was normal to hunt, eat the food and wear furs. I once got a rabbit fur coat from my grandmother when I was 14, I didn't feel any cold - it was awesome.

Do all vegans and vegetarians stop wearing wool pullovers and leather shoes if they care so much about animals? I do not think so honestly.

So what if humans stopped eating meat and fish, would cats stop eating birds and mice too? Tell a lion to stop eating meat and let me know what he told you (I wish my cats would eat raw meat instead of the manifactured stuff I buy but Obi doesn't know what to do with it and Jiji eats it only if he's in the mood...)

 

I live in Japan and seafood is very important here. I've eaten whale and raw fish eggs. I need my sushi and takoyaki. I need my meat. Oh and yes, meat is expensive here - so are fruits and vegetables - and I still buy it. I need variety and the thought of eating vegan for the rest of my life makes me sad and I think it would be very hard considering what food we have here. I don't think I've ever encountered a vegan or vegetarian restaurant, cannot think of any veggie menus I've ever seen at the moment.

 

I like leather bags because from my own experience, I can use them longer. If I buy some fake stuff it gets damaged soon. Same with shoes.

 

So yes, consider me on the "welfare" side.

[KageSora]

Actually, I do believe vegans not only don't eat anything animal, but many don't use anything animal-based at all, including clothing made from animals, unless otherwise impossible to replicate with a non-animal-based product.

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually, I do believe vegans not only don't eat anything animal, but many don't use anything animal-based at all, including clothing made from animals, unless otherwise impossible to replicate with a non-animal-based product.

Quite a lot of vegetarians too. My SO has a nightmare time with shoes He has badly misshapen feet and non-leather shoes are very unforgiving !

[Nectaris]

Do any of you guys in the US ever use farmers markets?  There's one up the street from where I live and the vegetables and fruits are quite a bit cheaper than at the grocery store.  That's where I go to get my produce and the lower prices do make a big difference.

We have a couple in town. At least here, they are no cheaper than the supermarket, and can actually be more expensive, though you are getting significantly better quality.

 

Personally, we grow a lot of our own vegetables, raise our own chickens, and a significant portion of our meat is also hunted by us. A single deer can last a few months for our family.

 

@Sock

 

You do have to have certification to call it organic. It is "all natural" and similar phrases that are unregulated. In fact, to get the organic label you have to go through ridiculously rigorous restrictions and qualifications(including what your NEIGHBORS do) and have to pay a hefty fee for the inspection. Now, after the inspection I would assume that it is possible for them to cheat after the inspection, but I find that somewhat unlikely, as the kinds of tests they perform are likely to catch that(and iirc, you DO have to be inspected periodically).

 

Probably the deceptive thing though is that organic is not as good as it is cracked up to be. Organic pesticides are still pesticides and can be harmful to people, just as one example.

 

I asked this in another thread, but I never got much of an answer, but do most vegetarians/vegans check into what fertilized their vegetables? A lot of organic fertilizers are technically animal products, like bonemeal, bloodmeal, manure(yes, this counts, I would suspect a large amount of the manure comes from places with a large concentration of it, like feed lots, for example), and fish emulsion.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Nectaris

[Fuzzbucket]

I asked this in another thread, but I never got much of an answer, but do most vegetarians/vegans check into what fertilized their vegetables? A lot of organic fertilizers are technically animal products, like bonemeal, bloodmeal, manure(yes, this counts, I would suspect a large amount of the manure comes from places with a large concentration of it, like feed lots, for example), and fish emulsion.

When they can - yes. But if you can't find out and would otherwise starve for not being SURE, you sometimes have to be pragmatic.

 

That said - I don't know any who object to manure as fertiliser. After all - happy horses crap too... and vegetarians who eat eggs and cheese etc - as opposed to vegans - probably are OK with chicken dung and cow manure. I'm not so sure about fish manure though...

[igloo9201]

To me, these groups are nuts. When we humans weren't as civilized as we're now it was normal to hunt, eat the food and wear furs. I once got a rabbit fur coat from my grandmother when I was 14, I didn't feel any cold - it was awesome.

Do all vegans and vegetarians stop wearing wool pullovers and leather shoes if they care so much about animals? I do not think so honestly.

So what if humans stopped eating meat and fish, would cats stop eating birds and mice too? Tell a lion to stop eating meat and let me know what he told you (I wish my cats would eat raw meat instead of the manifactured stuff I buy but Obi doesn't know what to do with it and Jiji eats it only if he's in the mood...)

 

I live in Japan and seafood is very important here. I've eaten whale and raw fish eggs. I need my sushi and takoyaki. I need my meat. Oh and yes, meat is expensive here - so are fruits and vegetables - and I still buy it. I need variety and the thought of eating vegan for the rest of my life makes me sad and I think it would be very hard considering what food we have here. I don't think I've ever encountered a vegan or vegetarian restaurant, cannot think of any veggie menus I've ever seen at the moment.

 

I like leather bags because from my own experience, I can use them longer. If I buy some fake stuff it gets damaged soon. Same with shoes.

 

So yes, consider me on the "welfare" side.

 

Exactly! Why is it okay for carnivores to eat meat, but not humans? Absolutely no sense.

 

Not to mention, everything we do kills animals. Our clothes, even vegetables kill animals sometimes during harvest, not to mention the habitat destruction for farms.

 

Also, since you're Japanese...let me just say that I wouldn't recommend you eating dolphin meat. It's very high in mercury and...well, if you know what happens in Taiji, I needn't say more.

 

But fur, leather, and non synthetic materials are actually more durable, and more natural. So they will decompose a lot easier than synthetic furs or leathers, and are actually better for the environment.

Edited July 8, 2014 by igloo9201

[7Deadly$ins]

I don't think they mentioned anything about eating dolphin? But anyway yes being vegan or even vegetarian in Japan is rather difficult, it just isn't really culturally done, and so you'd have a hard time doing it.

[Obscure_Trash]

You do have to have certification to call it organic. It is "all natural" and similar phrases that are unregulated. In fact, to get the organic label you have to go through ridiculously rigorous restrictions and qualifications(including what your NEIGHBORS do) and have to pay a hefty fee for the inspection. Now, after the inspection I would assume that it is possible for them to cheat after the inspection, but I find that somewhat unlikely, as the kinds of tests they perform are likely to catch that(and iirc, you DO have to be inspected periodically).

 

Probably the deceptive thing though is that organic is not as good as it is cracked up to be. Organic pesticides are still pesticides and can be harmful to people, just as one example.

 

I asked this in another thread, but I never got much of an answer, but do most vegetarians/vegans check into what fertilized their vegetables? A lot of organic fertilizers are technically animal products, like bonemeal, bloodmeal, manure(yes, this counts, I would suspect a large amount of the manure comes from places with a large concentration of it, like feed lots, for example), and fish emulsion.

On mobile, so I'll have to do some actual googling elsewhere, but I believe anybody can put organic in the food name. To get the actual USDA organic seal you have to adhere to the regulations, yes, but I am fairly certain I recall that people can call their food organic without having the seal. And a lot of people don't realize that or even know how to differentiate the real seal from foods just calling themselves organic as businesses can try hard to trick and fool people. I remember reading about it in a few places, but it was a few years ago, so perhaps I just never caught news of stricter regulations or didn't realize they were unreliable sources?

 

Probably the health factor/pesticide usage on organic foods you pointed out is more important, anyway, though. X3

 

~

 

Ugh, someone close to me just posted about how they wished speciesism would end so "women, men, transsexuals, domesticated, and undomesticated could live as equals". I've been trying to gently persuade them for animal welfare but they are completely animal rights. They think people are just trying to discredit PETA when they point out all the awful things PETA does. They compared killing a cricket to slavery. I just only see them going further down this gross path, though my mom insists it is a phase they will eventually grow out of.

[igloo9201]

@7, Nope, they didn't. But theydid say whale, I'm not sure if that has the same issues or not.

 

Yeah, that would be really hard I think.

 

Speaking of whaling, something hapoened where Australia was basically like "Japan, all this whaling for research crap is nonsense." And they're trying to force them to stop whaling or something...I can't remember the details, its been a while since I read the article. Japan hunting whales wouldn't be bad if they did it more humanely and legally. :/ And in less numbers.

 

@Socks

 

Oh, my. I'm sorry to hear that.

 

Hahaha next time calmly explain that a cricket has absolutely no emotion or thought process and does everything it does because of basic instinct, and that we humans are incredibly complex emotional creautures. She probably won't listen, but at least you'll seem like the obviously sane one.

 

Maybe it is a phase? I remember my wolfaboo phase, which makes me facepalm every time I think about it. If she's yound, maybe there's hope.