Animal Rights VS. Welfare

[danicast]

Ideally, of course, I would want food animals to be treated humanely, slaughtered quickly (without suffering), processed properly, and the parts used efficiently.

We have here a very effective system to slaughter and process cows. I watched a video about it and it was really impressive. The cows are killed with a stunt weapon that causes instantly death and then they are processed in a way that nothing is waisted, everything is processed, the nerves, the muscles, the feet, the leather, the bones, everything. I suppose this happens in other countries that have modernization too. The meat industry is huge in Brazil.

[danicast]

Fuzzbucket: I never said we absolutely need meat or we will die instantly. However, it is very hard to find good sources of protein that are vegan and/or vegetarian, especially for picky eaters or those with dietary conditions that prohibit eating. Say what you will, we are built omnivorous for a reason: more variety in diet and adaptability increases chances of survival. In addition, your claims that it is easy for everyone to switch to vegetarianism/veganism is quite false. In the same way that some vegetarians cannot eat meat after being raised vegetarian (they get sick because their bodies are not used to it), others cannot become vegetarians/vegans because their bodies are used to animal proteins and fats.

Sorry, this is not true. Any person can become a vegetarian. The first year is the harder to endure because the person is too used to eat meat, but after one year you can't even stand the smell of cooked meat, it causes nausea!

You can easily replace animal protein by tofu, soya and other sources of vegetable protein.

I used to think like you when I wasn't vegetarian but as soon as I really became vegetarian I discovered that this is false. It's an argument usually used to keep people eating meat.

In fact, most doctors advise elder people to become vegetarian to live longer.

[Kith]

We have here a very effective system to slaughter and process cows. I watched a video about it and it was really impressive. The cows are killed with a stunt weapon that causes instantly death and then they are processed in a way that nothing is waisted, everything is processed, the nerves, the muscles, the feet, the leather, the bones, everything. I suppose this happens in other countries that have modernization too. The meat industry is huge in Brazil.

Most of the issues that cause my ideal situation not to exist everywhere have to deal with the first part, though poachers and the practice of finning and the like still exist to some degree worldwide. The places the animals come from sometimes do not treat them properly while they're alive; overcrowding, disgusting living conditions, rough treatment, giving feed that's detrimental to the long-term health of the digestive system and that sort of thing.

[Daxillionyx]

Buy a potato - bake it (microwave, 6 minutes as a rule) and eat it with baked beans... with an apple for dessert you've pretty much covered it ! That's not exactly the height of luxury...

"Luxury" does not equal fun. It also does not equal fancy. But luxuries are often categorized by their higher prices compared to other goods/services. Where you live, eating a vegan diet may be cheap and practical. That's fine. But do not make the mistake, for one second, of thinking that it's cheap and feasible everywhere else, because that is far from true.

 

Yeah, but this is one thing that I don't understand about US. US americans have everything cheaper than us like computers, watches, cars, electric and electronic stuff... and vegetables are expensive? I really can't understand because here is quite the opposite, food is cheap and everybody, even homeless people or those who live in slums can eat but not everybody can have internet connection, it's not exactly cheap. I can't understand why a person who can afford a computer or a smartphone and an internet connection can not afford a vegetarian diet. You can eat here (vegetarian diet) for many months with the price that you pay for a computer.

 

Take into account the amount of competition there is in the US among the millions of fast-food chains. Fast food can pretty cheap here compared to organic food. Not to mention that there are PLENTY of fast-food chains across America, and meat is mass-produced.

What about places that offer vegan food? Now those are more rare.

I don't know where people in India, China, or elsewhere get their produce, or if it's home-grown, but home grown organic foods from local farmers are not cheap.

I've been to Sprouts, Trader Joe's, and Whole Foods, which sell plenty of organic produce and vegan products, and I couldn't imagine living as a vegan. I'd be broke. Those prices made me feel poor.

 

And when people have other mouths to feed on a certain income, being vegan in the US IS a luxury.

 

Again, where you live, the state or country, being vegan may be a walk in the park. But that's not true for everyone.

[danicast]

"Luxury" does not equal fun. It also does not equal fancy. But luxuries are often categorized by their higher prices compared to other goods/services. Where you live, eating a vegan diet may be cheap and practical. That's fine. But do not make the mistake, for one second, of thinking that it's cheap and feasible everywhere else, because that is far from true.

 

 

 

Take into account the amount of competition there is in the US among the millions of fast-food chains. Fast food can pretty cheap here compared to organic food. Not to mention that there are PLENTY of fast-food chains across America, and meat is mass-produced.

What about places that offer vegan food? Now those are more rare.

I don't know where people in India, China, or elsewhere get their produce, or if it's home-grown, but home grown organic foods from local farmers are not cheap.

I've been to Sprouts, Trader Joe's, and Whole Foods, which sell plenty of organic produce and vegan products, and I couldn't imagine living as a vegan. I'd be broke. Those prices made me feel poor.

 

And when people have other mouths to feed on a certain income, being vegan in the US IS a luxury.

 

Again, where you live, the state or country, being vegan may be a walk in the park. But that's not true for everyone.

I don't know about other countries but here in Brazil we get fresh produce in supermarkets, there are 4 of them only around where I live, the downtown area in Sao Paulo (largest city in South America, 16 millions of souls). In Brazil there are supermarkets everywhere and all of them sell fresh produce, vegetables, salads, you name it. The popular type (cheapest ones) sell directly from the main distributor and the fancy ones sell more fancy types like pre-washed, pre-cooked and all wrapped. We also have street fairs, there is one two blocks of my apartment and I can buy a lot of stuff for really cheap prices. I usually spend 25 dollars every week to buy for the whole week everything that you can imagine (carrots, peas, letuce, spinach, lots of fruits and fruits).

I think that maybe you could demand better distribution, I mean, I'm on a latin country, we are usually called third world and under development country, how come we have better distribution of fresh food than a place like US? It baffles me.

[edwardelricfreak]

Yeah, but this is one thing that I don't understand about US. US americans have everything cheaper than us like computers, watches, cars, electric and electronic stuff... and vegetables are expensive? I really can't understand because here is quite the opposite, food is cheap and everybody, even homeless people or those who live in slums can eat but not everybody can have internet connection, it's not exactly cheap. I can't understand why a person who can afford a computer or a smartphone and an internet connection can not afford a vegetarian diet. You can eat here (vegetarian diet) for many months with the price that you pay for a computer.

 

ETA to add: a common full meal here is a portion of rice, a portion of beans, salad with letuce and tomatoes, a couple of potatoes, a cooked or fried egg and it costs only 3.50 USD. It's called "popular meal" and eaten by the majority of population.

I don't understand it either. And it's not that they're cheaper than food, exactly. At least, not in one payment. What's weird here is that it's incredibly hard to live without certain things, especially cars, without losing a job that pays for those things. Lots of things like businesses are also going online or at least have an online site, so unless you're lucky enough to live near a library with computers and internet, you're screwed unless you have your own device that can get online. Also, idk, watches are incredibly cheap here, even digital ones. They're usually under $40. Of course there are luxury watches and crap like that, too, that can be pricier than even lots of jewelry. O.o

 

Vegetables and fruit are expensive as opposed to things like fast food, definitely. For the price of a pound of most produce, you could have gotten whole meals at McDonald's for a family of 4. That's the biggest issue. Even just meat is more expensive than McDonald's. I think most fruit is fairly cheap, though.

 

I think someone was getting it wrong when they were talking about produce being more expensive than meat. The reason why it's hard to be vegan or even vegetarian here isn't because produce is more expensive than meat (a package of chicken breasts are between $5-9, for example, whereas most fruit are about $1-2 for a pound. I know kiwis are usually somewhere between $.40-.60 each), but that a pound of vegetables, which won't fill the whole family, is almost always more expensive than fast food, which is hardly vegan or vegetarian in most cases. That's where the hard part comes in.

 

Course, if you count organic stuff, it's actually getting cheaper, but it's still a bit pricey, especially compared to some meat.

 

Also, hah. Maybe a single meal would only cost that much, but that's for one person (half the price could feed that same person at pretty much any burger joint). You have to understand that you're buying things for the whole family. So, for even a dozen large eggs, that's already about $3, beans are fairly cheap for a single can at under $1 in most cases, tomatoes are around $.50 each but it depends on the type, potatoes are at least a $1 I think, and rice depends on the kind and size of the bag, same with lettuce unless you get a fresh head, which I'm not sure of the price of but I think it's about $1-2. Altogether, it can definitely be more expensive than fast food, which can feed everyone at about a $1 for everyone.

 

And then of course, if you're being vegan, you pretty much have to get no eggs, be VERY picky about the beans, and get organic produce.

Yes indeed, but that doesn't make a meatless diet unhealthy. The health is the issue, the fact that you can be vegan and healthy.

 

I know vegans in the US (sorry, but I get around - I am VERY old !) Price a packet of lentils. A can of chickpeas (make some falafels).

 

Buy a potato - bake it (microwave, 6 minutes as a rule) and eat it with baked beans... with an apple for dessert you've pretty much covered it ! That's not exactly the height of luxury...

Yeah, it's not. It is for some, but if you can find good substitutes, most people are just fine. c:

 

I didn't say there weren't any vegans in the US. I don't think anyone did. It's just hard to be, especially when you have a lot of mouths to feed, which is the case (and sometimes cause of) poor people. Also, just my opinion, but falafels are disgusting. I don't like chickpeas much. I think hummus is gross, too, except for the tomato and garlic one or whatever it was.

 

It's still more expensive than other things that are cheaper and extremely unhealthy, though. When you have to pinch your pennies tightly, you just can't afford to get things like that for everyone. But no, it's not the most expensive meal in the word, and even lower middle class with small families can easily afford it, yes. c:

[igloo9201]

Interesting discussion!

 

All I know is that I could never be a vegetarian OR a vegan.

 

I think that 75% of all vegetables taste so nasty that I can't force myself to eat them. And the other 25% of vegetables that I can manage to choke down? If I meat more than like half a cup of veggies at any given time, the next day i either throw up, have horrible stomach pains, or both.

 

I love animals, don't get me wrong. But I usually eat meat at 2/3 meals. I eat some kind of animal product at every meal. Yes, it may be -possible- for me to -survive- as a veggie/vegan. But no way am I gonna go through all that pain and suffering, forcing myself to eat nasty food, just to save a few cows and hundreds of chickens (I eat chicken just shy of every day), which would be eaten by someone else anyways.

 

Plus, I have a dog and two cats, so how do I justify that? Id still be killing animals. Because keeping those animals on a vegan or veggie diet is tie animal cruelty. Dogs will get serious medical issues, cats will just die.

[MedievalMystic]

Since when did this become a debate about the cost of vegan diets?

[Daxillionyx]

Interesting discussion!

 

All I know is that I could never be a vegetarian OR a vegan.

 

I think that 75% of all vegetables taste so nasty that I can't force myself to eat them. And the other 25% of vegetables that I can manage to choke down? If I meat more than like half a cup of veggies at any given time, the next day i either throw up, have horrible stomach pains, or both.

 

I love animals, don't get me wrong. But I usually eat meat at 2/3 meals. I eat some kind of animal product at every meal. Yes, it may be -possible- for me to -survive- as a veggie/vegan. But no way am I gonna go through all that pain and suffering, forcing myself to eat nasty food, just to save a few cows and hundreds of chickens (I eat chicken just shy of every day), which would be eaten by someone else anyways.

 

Plus, I have a dog and two cats, so how do I justify that? Id still be killing animals. Because keeping those animals on a vegan or veggie diet is tie animal cruelty. Dogs will get serious medical issues, cats will just die.

I love the bluntness of your comment

[DangerDragon]

I thought this is about Animal Rights/Welfare and not about food.

[Ansela Jonla]

I think that as humans it's our responsibility to care for the animals around us.

 

Hunting is, as much as some people would like to deny it, a necessity. Prey animals like deer need an external control on their population, whether that be via predatory animals, starvation, or humans hunting them. Yellowstone Park's lack of wolves is a good example of what happens when there aren't enough checks on herbivore populations.

 

Zoos, conservation parks, and their ilk are, once again, necessary. Not only to try and save the species' that humans have nearly eradicated, but to educate people about animals. In the past zoos used to be places where you'd go and gawk at rare beasts locked in cages but now, certainly in first world countries at least, you'd be hard pressed to find a zoo that isn't involved in education and captive breeding programmes. Some zoos also participate in venom collection for anti-venom production.

 

Pets... well, I've lived with them all my life, so I'm biased, but I couldn't imagine not having one. Having that one being that loves you no matter what (even when it's just cupboard love), won't judge you, won't start talking trash about you when you're almost out of earshot. Some people need that emotional support.

 

Working dogs are another necessity of life. Assistance dogs allow disabled people to live independent lives. Sniffer dogs track down substances that are illegal and/or dangerous. Police dogs track down criminals that their human counterparts would not otherwise be able to find, and often ensure compliance as well. Herding breeds ensure the swift rounding up of animals that might otherwise be reluctant to move in the direction they're supposed to be going.

 

Fur and meat farms. I think that fur (or equivalent) farms should only exist if they're also a meat-producing farm. I've seen, on wildlife shows, the northern Australia crocodile farms. Hide and meat production from the same animals, and they're used for rehoming dangerous wild crocodiles for breeding from and as a tourist/education site also. That's the sort of model fur farms should, in my opinion, be using. Meat is part of many people's diets, and I'm one of many people who'd resist cutting it out altogether.

 

I'm firmly on the "welfare" side of things. Yes, animals should have rights, but they should be the rights to be taken care of properly and in a humane manner.

[danicast]

I thought this is about Animal Rights/Welfare and not about food.

They are related subjects since a lot of people only see "food" when they think in a cow or a chicken or a fish and they think that "food" have no rights or don't deserve a nice treatment. It's going to die anyway.

[gloryKAT]

I thought this is about Animal Rights/Welfare and not about food.

Food is involved in animal rights/welfare -- certain extremists think that "oh we shouldn't eat meat because its not good and we want to protect all the animals and their rights but the animals that eat meat shouldn't eat meat because its baaaad"

 

*cough*PETA*cough*

Edited July 4, 2014 by gloryKAT

[Fuzzbucket]

Since when did this become a debate about the cost of vegan diets?

Since people used cost as a reason not to give up eating animals.

[Ansela Jonla]

Since people used cost as a reason not to give up eating animals.

Cost is one factor for me, vegetarian food is generally more expensive than meat-containing food, and vegan costs more again.

 

Lack of choice is another factor. Living with my family is another, as they're all meat eaters and I am not going to be so rude as to expect my mum to prepare two meals when she's cooking.

 

And I don't want to stop eating meat. I like my chicken nuggets and chips. I enjoy a bacon and mushroom buttie in the morning. When I'm in town and hungry, give me a Greggs chicken bake and I'll be happy.

[Fuzzbucket]

Cost is one factor for me, vegetarian food is generally more expensive than meat-containing food, and vegan costs more again.

 

Lack of choice is another factor. Living with my family is another, as they're all meat eaters and I am not going to be so rude as to expect my mum to prepare two meals when she's cooking.

 

And I don't want to stop eating meat. I like my chicken nuggets and chips. I enjoy a bacon and mushroom buttie in the morning. When I'm in town and hungry, give me a Greggs chicken bake and I'll be happy.

Greggs sausage rolls for me. I am NOT vegetarian; I am only arguing against the costs more aspect..

 

It doesn't cost more to be so. I know this; I cater for them and I do all the shopping ! (And in the UK we are lucky enough to have Quorn, which costs LESS than the equivalent serving of meat ! not to mention a McD veggie burger costs exactly the same as a meaty one.)

[edwardelricfreak]

not to mention a McD veggie burger costs exactly the same as a meaty one.)

Personally I wouldn't trust any place like McDonald's with "veggie" anything. Even their salads. :\

[Daxillionyx]

Greggs sausage rolls for me. I am NOT vegetarian; I am only arguing against the costs more aspect..

 

It doesn't cost more to be so. I know this; I cater for them and I do all the shopping ! (And in the UK we are lucky enough to have Quorn, which costs LESS than the equivalent serving of meat ! not to mention a McD veggie burger costs exactly the same as a meaty one.)

No wonder you don't understand why people say it costs more! You live in The UK, not the US! You are blessed then, to be where eating a vegan diet doesn't cost more than having a diet that includes meat. It's the other way around for us.

 

 

Personally I wouldn't trust any place like McDonald's with "veggie" anything. Even their salads. :\

 

Smart girl. A McDonalds in India once got sued because people found out that their veggie burgers were being made with something like meat broth or something. Those people were not happy...

Edited July 4, 2014 by Daxillionyx

[Obscure_Trash]

I think that maybe you could demand better distribution, I mean, I'm on a latin country, we are usually called third world and under development country, how come we have better distribution of fresh food than a place like US? It baffles me.

Do not let us calling ourselves a "first world country" fool you. We have the worst education rates, homelessness rates, health care rates, etc out of any "developed" nation.

 

This graphic does an excellent job summarizing p much every reason the USA does what it does: http://boomsticks-and-firewater.tumblr.com...triathlon-3-the

(I'm fairly certain fast food salads aren't good for you either, but the points still stand.)

 

~

 

I have to add my voice of support to what Eef and Daxillionyx are saying re: cost and finances. If you go vegetarian (maaaybe vegan), is it going to be more expensive if you eat the same kind of processed crap non-vegs eat? Not really. IF you are going veg for health reasons, then YES, it is going to cost you factors more. You are going to have a harder time finding food and it is going to cost more. Food you want will probably not be available in the big chains and therefore won't be available at a cheaper cost. You'll have to go to specific stores and pay up for their prices. Eating healthier in general is going to cost you factors more whether or not you cut meat out.

 

Organic labels, for instance, are not regulated here at all. Anybody is free to call their product "organic" to try and boost sales even if it is not organic at all.

 

Tbh, I'm kind of getting a little frustrated with people not in the USA thinking they understand our prices better than we do. We have been to the stores. We have seen the prices for the amount of food. And we are saying that it is not something sustainable for us. It is expensive to actually eat well. Once in a while you might get lucky and find some fruit for cheaper but on the whole, anything healthy is going to be by some small business or some family thing and it's going to cost more so they can continue to supply product.

 

Perhaps our healthier food doesn't seem so expensive to you but when inflation continues to rise, minimum wage stays stagnant, jobs require a college degree, and colleges continually increase their tuition rates, it is not something that is feasible for the Average Joe.

 

Again, if you're just going to eat processed crap without meat in it, then yes, it's just as sustainable as eating processes crap with meat in it, but I don't think that's the perspective a lot of us from the US are arguing from.

 

And buying in bulk for catering efforts is a leetle different than buying just to feed a family considering we often make things cheaper if you buy them in bulk (and that's not always reasonable for a family due to space and also waste when you can't go through it quick enough).

 

So yeah, for the purposes of this thread, simply going veg for animal rights is pretty much the same cost.

 

~

 

Also, as a note, I want to point out how harmful some diet trends are (I put it here since going veg for animal rights is a huge diet trend). Things like quinoa and collard greens, for instance, are/were cheap stables in other countries, but when they become a trend here, we take their whole staple and jack up the prices while lowering the availability for people who had been subsisting on those foods for who knows how long. We really need to work on our own agriculture instead of just taking food from others. =U

 

EDIT: Oops, replaced link with one that doesn't censor.

Edited July 4, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Fuzzbucket]

Tbh, I'm kind of getting a little frustrated with people not in the USA thinking they understand our prices better than we do. We have been to the stores. We have seen the prices for the amount of food. And we are saying that it is not something sustainable for us. It is expensive to actually eat well. Once in a while you might get lucky and find some fruit for cheaper but on the whole, anything healthy is going to be by some small business or some family thing and it's going to cost more so they can continue to supply product.

Socky, my lovely - I actually spend time in the US - and I have veggie friends there; I even go to the stores with them. Is Ohio (the place I go to most) cheaper than where you are ???

 

And I wouldn't buy quinoa in any country; it's vile ! But potatoes, ordinary veg (being veggie does not also mean going organic) - they DON'T cost more than meat. If you are veggie rather than vegan - eggs and cheese don't either.

 

Sure - being poor and out of work sucks (everywhere) - but it does that for omnivores too. (I absolutely agree that in fast food outlets it's often expensive to eat veggie - but no one would reckon a salad like the one on that link was a comparably filling meal to a burger anyway...)

Edited July 4, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[MedievalMystic]

Do any of you guys in the US ever use farmers markets? There's one up the street from where I live and the vegetables and fruits are quite a bit cheaper than at the grocery store. That's where I go to get my produce and the lower prices do make a big difference.

 

For example, I can get two green peppers for $1 at the farmers market, but I'll pay $1.35+ for just one at the grocery store.

 

And no, I'm not a 'veggie' anything, I just like them. I eat meat, too. Mostly chicken. Whatever floats your boat.

Edited July 4, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Daxillionyx]

Do any of you guys in the US ever use farmers markets?  There's one up the street from where I live and the vegetables and fruits are quite a bit cheaper than at the grocery store.  That's where I go to get my produce and the lower prices do make a big difference.

 

For example, I can get two green peppers for $1 at the farmers market, but I'll pay $1.35+ for just one at the grocery store.

 

And no, I'm not a 'veggie' anything, I just like them.  I eat meat, too.  Mostly chicken.  Whatever floats your boat.

There are a few farmer's markets in the city next to mine, but they sell in bulk or are either not worth the gas it would take to drive to them. Sometimes my family buys from the ones that sell it in bulk for good prices, but that's only when we are having parties or a lot of people over. Otherwise our food spoils because we cannot finish it quickly enough, and in the end we lose money.

Before we moved to where we are now, there was a farmer's market that had good prices and did not sell in bulk. We were able to go there frequently because my mom was not working then. But we moved, and my parents have full-time jobs, so we couldn't go to farmer's markets like we used to.

It just wouldn't work anymore. Now going to farmer's markets like the one we had in our old home would be like going on a field trip

 

 

 

Socky, my lovely - I actually spend time in the US - and I have veggie friends there; I even go to the stores with them. Is Ohio (the place I go to most) cheaper than where you are ???

 

Spending time somewhere else and having friends tell you something versus actually living your life there are two very different things. We are here when food prices rise, fall, and stay constant. We shop here to get what we need, and know what we pay for food. We have been here for many years. There's a difference.

I do not and will not pretend that I know more about food prices in the UK than you, a person who is living there, does because I don't live there and I don't know. Like Sock said, people need to stop thinking that they know more about what goes on in another country than those who actually live there do.

 

It's great that veggies are cheap for you in your country, and it's nice to hear that your veggie friends in Ohio agree with you. But that does not hold up much weight in the US overall.

[edwardelricfreak]

Do any of you guys in the US ever use farmers markets?  There's one up the street from where I live and the vegetables and fruits are quite a bit cheaper than at the grocery store.  That's where I go to get my produce and the lower prices do make a big difference.

 

For example, I can get two green peppers for $1 at the farmers market, but I'll pay $1.35+ for just one at the grocery store.

 

And no, I'm not a 'veggie' anything, I just like them.  I eat meat, too.  Mostly chicken.  Whatever floats your boat.

There are a couple around and occasionally someone in my grandma's neighborhood will sell some of the vegetables they grow, too.

 

And yes, while they are cheaper, they usually have stuff in bulk. So some things are better to get and it's actually the best thing health-wise to eat (frozen produce is the next best thing if you can't get fresh-off-the-vine or whatever the plant grows on/in).

 

I really like eating it, too. c: It all tastes sooo good. I also really like going out to this one berry farm where they let you fill baskets full of berries, but it's a few hours away and is really only best during summer and fall. :\

 

But really, I think I know of only two farmers markets. One is way out in the country and the other is, thankfully, in Austin where I live with my grandma.

 

Sadly though, farmers markets aren't found in lots of areas, that I know of. :c Especially not in ghettos/slums and such. You have to drive quite a ways to get to them unless you're lucky enough to live nearby one like I am! So fresh food is still out for many, sadly.

 

And when I mean "fresh", I don't mean the produce section of a grocery store. Unless the grocery store gets locally-grown produce, which is even then not quite as good as fresh farmers market produce, then the produce is harvested way before it ripens. At least frozen produce is picked when ripe and then flash frozen, IIRC.

 

I've actually never eaten lots of meat. I mean I occasionally eat burgers and very rarely steak and brisket, but most of the meat I eat is stuff like ground turkey, chicken, fish, and pork (and bacon). I don't even really like ham too much (though I know it's still pig, I just don't eat it much). I really like meat. I probably could at least go vegetarian, since I really really really like cheese and eggs to go totally vegan, but since I don't eat too much meat in the first place, ehhhh. o3o

 

I just don't think that me going veg is going to have much impact. There are just way too many people who like meat and some that don't even care about animals or that the food was once alive. Even if a good majority of people suddenly went veg, there would still be plenty of demand for meat products. I mean, in the US we have lots of barbecues which involve brisket and chicken and sausage, Thanksgiving which has turkey, and Christmas which has either turkey, goose, or ham (these are just the most common meals. I'm sure there are other things people eat but I believe those are the most common ones that I know of!).

 

If you go vegan to "save the animals", that's good and all, but I don't think it's really "saving them", especially when most of the animals that are raised to be eaten are, well, meant to be eaten. They have specific diets and even crazy stuff like specific genetics IIRC that make them ideal for feeding as many people with little cost.

 

I do really wish, though, that maybe our culture would shift towards eating things like insects. I actually wouldn't mind eating certain ones. I don't think I'll ever eat something like a roach but I would love to eat crickets. It would really save on land that's currently used for cattle/chickens/etc and may lessen how many animals are slaughtered, since some insects pack way more vitamins than some of them. o3o

[brairtrainer]

I do really wish, though, that maybe our culture would shift towards eating things like insects. I actually wouldn't mind eating certain ones. I don't think I'll ever eat something like a roach but I would love to eat crickets. It would really save on land that's currently used for cattle/chickens/etc and may lessen how many animals are slaughtered, since some insects pack way more vitamins than some of them. o3o

If you're in the US you might have to wait a while for crickets to even blip on the radar. The crickets raised for reptile/bird food are european crickets and have suddenly been attacked by a virus that kills them in mass quantaties, and native crickets have had to go through a speedy approval by the Department of Ag. to be raised instead. Unfortunatly native crickets don't take to captivity like the european ones do.

 

@AJ: (you don't mind me shortening your name do you?) Just to share about fur farms, rabbit fur is probably the best you can get commercially farmed because the rabbits typically used (new zealand, rex for higher ended things) are already meat rabbits. So breeders of rabbits for fur tend to already do this kind of thing.

 

Also Coyote tends to be trapped, not farmed. And in areas where the coyote population has exploded and threatens the undergrowth ecosystem trapping is one of the only ways to keep them under control (such as in ohio.)

 

And as for price going vegitarian or vegan, if something here is vegetarian or vegan you can expect the price to increase at the store significantly. It was easier for my sister and I to figure out what protein to eat (mostly meat) when we did the grocery shopping, and we live in Ohio. We specifically live in an area where a good portion of our town recieves WIC, EBT or some other monetary assitance. They can't afford to go into a bigger city to get the better food found at the smaller grocery stores.

Edited July 5, 2014 by brairtrainer

[igloo9201]

This thread is making me hungry...I think someone said "bacon"?

 

Like I said in my previous post, I would never switch to veg.

 

As for this talk of fur farms...almost all if not all fur farms do produce meat, whether or not it's for humans is the differing factor. But usually, with things like mink farms, the meat, bones, organs, etc, is ground up for either pet food or zoos. So nothinis usually wasted. (:

 

As for the insect idea...that's an interesting idea, but as Birdtrainer mentioned, they can have viruses or parasites. There are people that are afraid to feed their LIZARDS crickets, much less humans.

 

But habitat destruction for meat production is very bad.