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Animal Rights VS. Welfare

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Fun fact, African elephants are slowly losing their tusks due to hunters killing off tusked elephants, meaning females are more likely to pick traits that help them avoid hunters, which is a lack of tusks. Did I mention they use their tusks to dig for food in the ground? Yeah, tragedy that.

I've heard the same thing about rattlesnakes; in developed areas, more rattlesnakes that don't rattle are appearing, since those that do are found and often killed by humans. And since the ones that don't rattle survive and breed, more snakes that don't rattle are being born.

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I don't believe animals have rights. I do believe that they should be treated with care and not be abused.

 

I think the notion that an animal having rights meaning that none can be kept as pets, even cats and dogs, is absurd and extreme, which is why I support welfare, not rights. And anyway, many animals long for human companionship.

 

Same goes for not being able to eat meat.

I know that many things are wrong with how livestock are treated by the companies that mass produce meat products, and I have nothing against vegetarianism, but expecting omnivores like humans, ALL of us, to go without meat is pretty senseless.

 

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To those who support animal rights movements and believe people should not be allowed to eat meat:

 

Our digestive systems are omnivorous. This means we are built and designed to consume both animal and plant products, as are many other animals. Furthermore, if we don't eat animals and they are allowed rights, then all carnivorous animals would be thrown in prison or euthanized because they must kill to eat; it's how they are built.

 

Humans are sentient, intelligent animals and the only one we know of that has developed culture and civilization. I still believe in animal welfare, as we rely on animals and they certainly don't deserve cruelty or abuse, but animal rights just is not feasible.

 

Also, it is very, very hard to eat a vegan lifestyle and still be healthy, especially for those with dietary restrictions. Forcing it on people is not reasonable, especially since we are omnivores, not carnivores or herbivores.

Edited by PieMaster

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Well, you can be very healthy and vegan. However, you have to find substitutes for meat and vegan products tend to be quite expensive.

 

Meat is just a much easier way of getting certain forms of nutrition.

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To those who support animal rights movements and believe people should not be allowed to eat meat:

 

Our digestive systems are omnivorous. This means we are built and designed to consume both animal and plant products, as are many other animals. Furthermore, if we don't eat animals and they are allowed rights, then all carnivorous animals would be thrown in prison or euthanized because they must kill to eat; it's how they are built.

 

Humans are sentient, intelligent animals and the only one we know of that has developed culture and civilization. I still believe in animal welfare, as we rely on animals and they certainly don't deserve cruelty or abuse, but animal rights just is not feasible.

 

Also, it is very, very hard to eat a vegan lifestyle and still be healthy, especially for those with dietary restrictions. Forcing it on people is not reasonable, especially since we are omnivores, not carnivores or herbivores.

It isn't hard at all. We do it all the time - SO is veggie and I have many vegan friends. I take no MORAL stance here - I am not veggie myself, except most of the time for convenience in the home ! =- but I get heartily sick of those who say how hard it is - and the same goes for vegan - I have a vegan daughter and it is no trouble at all - it REALLY isn't. It is a MYTH that we "need" meat and fish. (My sister is a doctor and concurs.)

 

Just saying. BIG hobby horse here !

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It isn't hard at all. We do it all the time - SO is veggie and I have many vegan friends. I take no MORAL stance here - I am not veggie myself, except most of the time for convenience in the home ! =- but I get heartily sick of those who say how hard it is - and the same goes for vegan - I have a vegan daughter and it is no trouble at all - it REALLY isn't. It is a MYTH that we "need" meat and fish. (My sister is a doctor and concurs.)

 

Just saying. BIG hobby horse here !

That may be true for you and those you know, there are plenty of people who CANNOT survive without meat.

 

My Sunday school teacher was a dedicated vegan for years. She worked out, ate lots of fruit and veggies, and seemed very healthy. Until she got sick. In order to get well again, she needed take medicine, but the side effects were amplified because her body was not used to anything but fresh produce.

Also, she couldn't sustain the lifestyle anymore. Being vegan is EXPENSIVE compared to eating both meat and produce. Plus illness rocked harder when it did come. She eventually gave up being vegan so she could be healthy again, and she healed quickly.

 

And many people cannot live off of produce, not only for financial reasons, but because their bodies can't handle it.

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Sorry - but it simply isn't true. Ask any dietitian. Sure anyone who gets sick may have issues - the same can apply to someone who develops coeliac disease and suddenly cannot tolerate bread. Major changes of diet of all kinds can cause all sorts of problems - if you travel a lot you will find that even a change on the WATER causes stomach upsets. But outside - possibly - of rare illnesses there is no human being who cannot be perfectly healthy on a good, varied vegan diet. The working out isn't the issue, either, it's the varied foodstuffs.

 

And meat costs loads more than lentils.

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Sorry - but it simply isn't true. Ask any dietitian. Sure anyone who gets sick may have issues - the same can apply to someone who develops coeliac disease and suddenly cannot tolerate bread. Major changes of diet of all kinds can cause all sorts of problems - if you travel a lot you will find that even a change on the WATER causes stomach upsets. But outside - possibly - of rare illnesses there is no human being who cannot be perfectly healthy on a good, varied vegan diet. The working out isn't the issue, either, it's the varied foodstuffs.

 

And meat costs loads more than lentils.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. Not everyone can be vegan. Period. When you include everyone, you include people like:

 

- Severely anemic people, who need get a lot of iron and protein into their body via food, and help from meds, to keep their body balanced. I knew someone in high school that needed to monitor what she ate, and had to include red meat in her diet, because she was anemic. Same for my sister. She doesn't eat that much meat, yet she loves fruits and veggies, but she is anemic, and her doctor makes sure she gets some meat in her to combat that.

 

-Pregnant moms whose WIC checks cannot afford to substitute the milk/dairy products for those without.

 

- College students, and people with low income in general. Lentils don't cost that much? Well I have never heard on anyone surviving on lentils alone. Let's not ignore the fact that pork is one of the cheapest meats out there, compared to buying the ingredients for a salad, fruit salad, or a veggie medley. Let's be realistic here.

Being a college student myself, I see this first hand. In the store in my dorm, they sell a salad for $6.00. Six whole dollars. And that salad won't even fill me up. I look across the store, and they also sell a burger for $3.00. Half the price. Not to mention that I will be full after I eat it. And we college students have a budget. I can't afford the produce around me on my budget.

 

I can't be vegan. That anemic person can't be vegan. That pregnant woman with a low income, cannot be vegan.

Not everyone can be vegan.

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Posting to say four things:

 

1) While I'm more of an animal welfare person myself, I really wish people would stop calling PETA an animal rights group. They're legally classified as terrorists and they do it under the pretense of supporting animal rights. They use the people they dupe with their misinformation as a shield so they can continue their operations. It's not the same thing and is a disservice to everyone who does support animal rights.

 

2) People in food deserts cannot be vegans. People who live in northern Canada are being starved to death by often-extremely-misinformed animal rights groups and profiteering retailers and can't afford to buy groceries at all, much less organic vegan alternatives. They're forced to subsistence hunting because they can't buy their food, and animal rights groups don't even want them to have that. As Dax said... not everyone can be vegan. Generally, only Buddhist monks and people in stable financial situations and without certain medical conditions can comfortably be vegan.

 

3) If you happen to be vegan for a love of animals, I hope you're eating only organic vegetables from the farmer's market or grown in your own garden, because threshers kill millions of animals a year. A loaf of bread has more deaths behind it than a steak. And I hope you're not eating quinoa because the market for that stuff is destroying the environment in Bolivia, and therefore causing innumerable deaths out there as well.

 

4) Sort of related to both veganism and animal welfare: anyone who claims that dogs or cats can live on a vegan diet is a hypocrite and I hope they never own a dog or cat as long as they hold this view. A dog on a vegan diet is at increased risk of cancer and a plethora of other health issues because they are not built for a high carbohydrate diet, and cats on vegan diets go blind and die because they need animal proteins that are not found in any sort of vegetable, such as taurine, and die without them. Vegan pet diets are needlessly cruel and should be banned. Go vegan if you want if your wallet and your body allow, but don't force your lifestyle choice on an animal that that choice will slowly and painfully kill.

 

And now since I prefer to avoid the debates that surround animal rights, I am disappearing from this thread.

Edited by Lythiaren

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I find it surprising that for so many people being vegan is very expensive and only for the financially stable. While I agree it costs a bit more than eating a lot of meat, where I live money isn't much of a problem when it comes to being vegan. I'm not vegan myself, but some of my family is, so we buy a lot of vegan food. Meat substitutes are sold at a pretty low price. We are no where near financially stable, but half my family is able to be vegan and the other half vegetarian.

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I find it surprising that for so many people being vegan is very expensive and only for the financially stable. While I agree it costs a bit more than eating a lot of meat, where I live money isn't much of a problem when it comes to being vegan. I'm not vegan myself, but some of my family is, so we buy a lot of vegan food. Meat substitutes are sold at a pretty low price. We are no where near financially stable, but half my family is able to be vegan and the other half vegetarian.

Well, you have to remember that thousands of families are quite poor, at least in the USA. Like, you cannot imagine. People living in crowded, poorly-maintained apartments, ghettos, and slums. I'm not saying you are, but sometimes people get so caught up in what they know that they forget that millions of people have to live off of a lot less money than they do. Living a vegan diet, for the average American who does not want debt, is quite expensive, more expensive than going to the McDonald's across the street.

There are people who are living from paycheck to paycheck, people in debt, people whose jobs don't pay much extra. Being vegan is a luxury, one that they cannot afford.

 

And this is just talking about people who won't have health problems on a vegan diet.

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It isn't hard at all. We do it all the time - SO is veggie and I have many vegan friends. I take no MORAL stance here - I am not veggie myself, except most of the time for convenience in the home ! =- but I get heartily sick of those who say how hard it is - and the same goes for vegan - I have a vegan daughter and it is no trouble at all - it REALLY isn't. It is a MYTH that we "need" meat and fish. (My sister is a doctor and concurs.)

 

Just saying. BIG hobby horse here !

Information coming from certified nutritionists and animal nutritionists, MANY people are at a higher risk of cancer due to lack of animal proteins that they cannot get from plants or any substitute. I've tried cutting down on meat to save money, it didn't go well. I know my body would never forgive me for that..

 

Adding on, working in a pet store, a family owned one, I've learned to not trust every doctor on nutrition. I leave that to nutritionists.

Edited by GhostChilli

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Sorry, but that's simply not true. Not everyone can be vegan. Period. When you include everyone, you include people like:

 

- Severely anemic people, who need get a lot of iron and protein into their body via food, and help from meds, to keep their body balanced. I knew someone in high school that needed to monitor what she ate, and had to include red meat in her diet, because she was anemic. Same for my sister. She doesn't eat that much meat, yet she loves fruits and veggies, but she is anemic, and her doctor makes sure she gets some meat in her to combat that.

 

-Pregnant moms whose WIC checks cannot afford to substitute the milk/dairy products for those without.

 

- College students, and people with low income in general. Lentils don't cost that much? Well I have never heard on anyone surviving on lentils alone. Let's not ignore the fact that pork is one of the cheapest meats out there, compared to buying the ingredients for a salad, fruit salad, or a veggie medley. Let's be realistic here.

Being a college student myself, I see this first hand. In the store in my dorm, they sell a salad for $6.00. Six whole dollars. And that salad won't even fill me up. I look across the store, and they also sell a burger for $3.00. Half the price. Not to mention that I will be full after I eat it. And we college students have a budget. I can't afford the produce around me on my budget.

 

I can't be vegan. That anemic person can't be vegan. That pregnant woman with a low income, cannot be vegan.

Not everyone can be vegan.

It’s sad when people automatically equate being veggie with salads (or as my father used to say, rabbit food.) I certainly don’t usually buy salads in cafeterias - and certainly not at that price.

 

However. I am on PAYG internet here, and can’t google away for good nutrition sites, so I resorted to that old standard – the Good Housekeeping Cookbook – which has a handy list of nutrients and their best sources (and also a load of good info on combining pulses and grains to get complete proteins – and actually pointing out, which I did not expect to find in there, general info for vegetarians and vegans, and pointing out that meat is NOT necessary to a healthy diet.

 

You may have some RARE form of anaemia. If you have pernicious anaemia, you need B12, not iron, though. But, contrary to popular belief, meat (except for liver) is NOT that great as a source of dietary iron. The BEST food sources (of everything available, including meat - which isn’t even listed ONCE other than as liver) are oysters and egg yolk (no use to vegans), dried apricots, oats, molasses, raisins, green leafy veg, potatoes and whole grains. So a nice bowl of oats and raisins will do your anaemia a lot more good in the way of iron than steak or any other meat – unless you are big on liver. I love it – but few do.

 

Pork is a cheap MEAT, sure. But it isn’t as cheap as pulses.

 

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So you address iron and anemia, but nothing else?

 

But my statement still stands that not EVERYONE can afford to live a vegan lifestyle, period.

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So you address iron and anemia, but nothing else?

 

But my statement still stands that not EVERYONE can afford to live a vegan lifestyle, period.

^This. And not everyone can find appropriate variety. It is all well and good for people in large cities who have numerous grocery stores, and often some specialty markets. However, in small towns with a limited selection it just isn't always possible.

 

The college I went to was located in a small town, a friend at college couldn't even maintain a healthy VEGETARIAN lifestyle, let alone vegan, in that town. She went back to eating meat while at college for her health. Note that she was a vegetarian for years before going to college, with no previous health problems.

Edited by Nectaris

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So you address iron and anemia, but nothing else?

 

But my statement still stands that not EVERYONE can afford to live a vegan lifestyle, period.

1 billion of indians disagreed with you. biggrin.gif

And India is not exactly a rich country.

 

As a person from a latin country - I'm brazilian - I don't really understand why be a vegetarian would be more expensive than eat meat but that's because food is incredible cheap in my country, specially vegetables and non animal products, meat is still the most expensive food that one can buy.

Edited by danicast

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1 billion of indians disagreed with you. biggrin.gif

And India is not exactly a rich country.

THANK YOU danicast. wub.gif

 

MANY uni students in the UK go veggie while they were students just because it is so much cheaper.

 

I addressed anaemia simply because that was the one thing that someone said could not be handled on a vegan diet,. But it can. When I am back on decent internet (not till September) I can supply all the info you need about this. Meanwhile - where is Kestra when I need her xd.png

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Well, you have to remember that thousands of families are quite poor, at least in the USA. Like, you cannot imagine. People living in crowded, poorly-maintained apartments, ghettos, and slums. I'm not saying you are, but sometimes people get so caught up in what they know that they forget that millions of people have to live off of a lot less money than they do. Living a vegan diet, for the average American who does not want debt, is quite expensive, more expensive than going to the McDonald's across the street.

There are people who are living from paycheck to paycheck, people in debt, people whose jobs don't pay much extra. Being vegan is a luxury, one that they cannot afford.

 

And this is just talking about people who won't have health problems on a vegan diet.

I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that it's easy to be vegan and I wasn't telling anyone to be vegan. I just saw the discussion about cost of being vegan going on, and I wanted to pop in and share a bit. I was saying that it surprised me how cheap it is to be vegan or vegetarian where I live.

Oh believe me, I know how poor some people are. My family can barely afford to pay the bills. Everyday I live in fear of our house being taken away. "Extra money" is a rare dream for us.

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You're welcome, fuzzbucket. smile.gif

 

My mother and I are vegetarians for more than a decade. I'm not completely vegan, I eat eggs, milk and fish (I think I saw a therm that defines this kind of diet once but I don't remember). I never had healthy issues, I'm very healthy and I have eggs once a week and fish twice a month. My mom is practically the same, actually, the doctors advised her to eliminate meat and chicken from her diet after she fought a cancer. Red meat is one of the most responsible to produce disease in humans like high blood pressure due to fatness in blood and heart attacks but it seems there is no much interest in advertise these facts because of the industry of meat. I know the problem very well because brazilians eat a lot of meat and have a strong meat industry.

 

I became vegetarian after watch a video about slaughter houses and chicken farms. I could not eat meat anymore after that, it made me sick. I must admit I don't feel that much impressed about fish but I avoid some of them that have predatory fishing or involve the killing of mammals, like tuna fish, that in several places kills dolphins. I prefer to eat brazilian fish because the process is less industrial.

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1 billion of indians disagreed with you. :D

And India is not exactly a rich country.

 

As a person from a latin country - I'm brazilian - I don't really understand why be a vegetarian would be more expensive than eat meat but that's because food is incredible cheap in my country, specially vegetables and non animal products, meat is still the most expensive food that one can buy.

Yes, but that's because in those places, certain foods are cheaper. And especially for India, I think many believe in reincarnation, and it's possible to come back as an animal, which is why they don't eat meat.

 

And, in your country, you happen to be blessed with cheap produce and more expensive meat.

 

Again, not everyone has the luxury of being vegan, especially not in the US. And yes, it's a luxury here.

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Yes, but that's because in those places, certain foods are cheaper. And especially for India, I think many believe in reincarnation, and it's possible to come back as an animal, which is why they don't eat meat.

 

And, in your country, you happen to be blessed with cheap produce and more expensive meat.

 

Again, not everyone has the luxury of being vegan, especially not in the US. And yes, it's a luxury here.

THIS. The price of fruits, veggies, and other "vegan" foods vary widely from country to country, and even state to state. It's pretty expensive in many places compared to others.

 

And guys, remember that we are talking about eating VEGAN diet, not a vegetarian diet, which are two different things.

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Yes, but that's because in those places, certain foods are cheaper. And especially for India, I think many believe in reincarnation, and it's possible to come back as an animal, which is why they don't eat meat.

 

And, in your country, you happen to be blessed with cheap produce and more expensive meat.

 

Again, not everyone has the luxury of being vegan, especially not in the US. And yes, it's a luxury here.

Yes indeed, but that doesn't make a meatless diet unhealthy. The health is the issue, the fact that you can be vegan and healthy.

 

I know vegans in the US (sorry, but I get around - I am VERY old !) Price a packet of lentils. A can of chickpeas (make some falafels).

 

Buy a potato - bake it (microwave, 6 minutes as a rule) and eat it with baked beans... with an apple for dessert you've pretty much covered it ! That's not exactly the height of luxury...

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Yes, but that's because in those places, certain foods are cheaper. And especially for India, I think many believe in reincarnation, and it's possible to come back as an animal, which is why they don't eat meat.

 

And, in your country, you happen to be blessed with cheap produce and more expensive meat.

 

Again, not everyone has the luxury of being vegan, especially not in the US. And yes, it's a luxury here.

Yeah, but this is one thing that I don't understand about US. US americans have everything cheaper than us like computers, watches, cars, electric and electronic stuff... and vegetables are expensive? I really can't understand because here is quite the opposite, food is cheap and everybody, even homeless people or those who live in slums can eat but not everybody can have internet connection, it's not exactly cheap. I can't understand why a person who can afford a computer or a smartphone and an internet connection can not afford a vegetarian diet. You can eat here (vegetarian diet) for many months with the price that you pay for a computer.

 

ETA to add: a common full meal here is a portion of rice, a portion of beans, salad with letuce and tomatoes, a couple of potatoes, a cooked or fried egg and it costs only 3.50 USD. It's called "popular meal" and eaten by the majority of population.

Edited by danicast

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Since there are people whose bodies reject or are distressed by the ingestion of red meat (or, for some, meat in general), why would there not be people on the other side of the spectrum who become ill without it? Humans are built for omnivory, but there are those physical differences in individuals that cause nutrients to be processed or absorbed more or less efficiently in addition to the effect of the rest of the person's diet (nutrient X being absorbed best when paired with a good source of nutrient Y, etc.). I'd imagine that there are those for whom meat is the best source of a nutrient based on how their body absorbs it, while there are others for whom the non-meat options work better.

 

I don't really have an issue either with people eating meat or not eating it, I just don't care for wastage, especially of meat itself as well as the non-muscle tissue from the source animal. If an animal is going to be slaughtered for meat, as much of the rest needs to be used as possible; if someone is going to buy meat at a market or a restaurant, as much of it needs to be eaten as possible. Working in foodservice had me seeing much more wasted food than I ever thought possible, so I try to encourage people to eat what they get when they eat out.

 

Ideally, of course, I would want food animals to be treated humanely, slaughtered quickly (without suffering), processed properly, and the parts used efficiently.

 

@fuzz:

We just have to be careful with that can of baked beans: most have things like bacon, honey (in the sauce), or other animal products in them. I know I've seen vegetarian baked beans, so perhaps there are vegan ones that I just haven't seen because I haven't been looking.

Edited by Kith

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Fuzzbucket: I never said we absolutely need meat or we will die instantly. However, it is very hard to find good sources of protein that are vegan and/or vegetarian, especially for picky eaters or those with dietary conditions that prohibit eating. Say what you will, we are built omnivorous for a reason: more variety in diet and adaptability increases chances of survival. In addition, your claims that it is easy for everyone to switch to vegetarianism/veganism is quite false. In the same way that some vegetarians cannot eat meat after being raised vegetarian (they get sick because their bodies are not used to it), others cannot become vegetarians/vegans because their bodies are used to animal proteins and fats.

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