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TJ09

2014-04-15 - A Notice Regarding Staff

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All I have to say is wow.

Out of curiosity, is that a good wow, as in you're surprised about and happy with how the situation was handled, a bad wow, as in you're sarcastically expressing distaste for the handling of the situation, or this type of wow? Please do elaborate. I'd like to know which you meant, or if you meant another type entirely. The Internet can make it quite easy to inadvertently misinterpret text.

Edited by PieMaster

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Also doesn't booting them off of staff no longer mean it's private? That's very much a public display of punishment. It might not be a post pointing a finger directly at them and saying "This person did a bad thing!", but it's still VERY much so public.

 

Besides, personally I'm all for "X strikes, you're out!" vs "You mess up once and you're gone" unless it's something SO severe that it requires immediate removal.

It's not all that public, unless you're one of those who keep track of such things. Me? I've been on the forums and dragcave since 2008 and I barely know who the higher staffers are, much less the whole list. Which, by the way, has changed a lot over the years, just throwing that out there.

 

Sure, you can look it up, but.... pretty sure the average user wouldn't unless they were being nosy. It's simply too much work to look up ALL the lists of EVERY staffer and cross check and compare with the previous lists. The staff lists change all the time that I've seen over the years, with some staffers stepping down for life or whatever, new ones getting added in.... there's no real way of knowing it happened unless you were religiously checking everything.

 

And if it's a spriter, well.... from what I know they just get access to a special subforum on the forums and a special IRC room. If they were denied access from now on, no one inside would really know unless, like before, they checked. And I'm not sure that's even possible to see who has access to the subforums except staffers who should know anyway because they're a regulating body on the forum.

 

I mean, there's no need to say a word about it, just quietly remove the color from their name if they're a staffer, and remove their access to specific forums. There's no need to make any posts, just handle it in the coding of the forum and inform the person they're no longer able to keep their position. Privately, in a PM.

 

I don't see how that would be considered 'VERY' public unless people deliberately hunted down the information and started drama, or if the one person at fault kicked up a fuss over it.

 

And I would definitely say it's pretty severe. And it likely personally affects at least half the playerbase of dragcave, if not more.

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I can't decide if I want to know what happened... Either way, I think I agree with TJ that public shaming is not a good idea, and I hope whatever issues came up are resolved so that whatever happened does not adversely affect those not directly involved.

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All I am going to say is that I agree with zaverxi. And i am tired of people who don't know what happened commenting that it's not as severe or whatever. You cannot judge things if you don't know what they are. Stop that.

 

And yes. I do agree that their privileges should be taken away and that their creations in the future should not be released. Their behavior reflects very poorly on the site as a whole and when a company has employees who do say things like that a lot of them get fired as it tarnishes the image of the company as a whole. Why should DC be any different?

 

ETA: let me just add again that what they said was no laughing matter. ~Removed~The notice was explained, it is not necessary to post a provocative post.

Edited by _Z_

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Every time something like this happens I want to know the story behind it.

 

However it also usually means someone(be it staff or user) got butthurt and one or the other complained.

 

Though if a staff member says something truly offensive, in public, the public apology of said staff member reflects better on the website and staff body as a whole than silence does. If it's private, that's the offender's prerogative.

 

Having been a moderator/administrator on other sites for four years has taught me this much, at least.

 

 

EDIT: After being told and shown exactly what happened, yeah. I hold to what I said. [REDACTED] should be made to make a full public apology or have their power restricted.

Edited by Kiryu

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All I am going to say is that I agree with zaverxi. And i am tired of people who don't know what happened commenting that it's not as severe or whatever. You cannot judge things if you don't know what they are. Stop that.

 

And yes. I do agree that their privileges should be taken away and that their creations in the future should not be released. Their behavior reflects very poorly on the site as a whole and when a company has employees who do say things like that a lot of them get fired as it tarnishes the image of the company as a whole. Why should DC be any different?

 

ETA: let me just add again that what they said was no laughing matter.

I agree.

 

Thanks for the notice, TJ.

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While I am glad to see clarification on such matters posted, it's sad that it has to be done in the first place.

 

That said, this must have happened either in section I don't frequent often or while I wasn't looking, though I haven't been very active as of late. I can't help but wonder what happened, though it's not my business to know.

 

You know what they say about curiosity and the cat....

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All I am going to say is that I agree with zaverxi. And i am tired of people who don't know what happened commenting that it's not as severe or whatever. You cannot judge things if you don't know what they are. Stop that.

 

And yes. I do agree that their privileges should be taken away and that their creations in the future should not be released. Their behavior reflects very poorly on the site as a whole and when a company has employees who do say things like that a lot of them get fired as it tarnishes the image of the company as a whole. Why should DC be any different?

 

ETA: let me just add again that what they said was no laughing matter.

I very much so agree here.

 

It happens all the time that people are kicked from the staff of sites or fired from their jobs for acting in a way that reflects poorly on the site/company. And this most assuredly was one of those instances.

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I have been swamped by information unasked for, so I have a pretty good idea what happened.

 

What irks me most is not the incident (which warrants any measure TJ wants to take, from small to outright ban), but also how it has been handled by those other staffmembers who really campaign against. Its immature and brings much unwarranted attention to the whole thing, as well as driving a split between things.

 

One misdeed by one person really does not justify a crusade by many others. Forums, Tumblers, Blogs, even wikia... Where will this witch-hunt stop?

 

I urge TJ to do something more. You can't have half your staff running wild like that.

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It reflects poorly, it is true, but as far as I am concerned, kicking a person off a Dragon Adoptables website is about as punitive as turning on a sprinkler and hoping your neighbour will walk into it.

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Going around making butthurt jokes when you don't know what happened seems like a bad policy. While I know full well people can be dramatic and overly sensitive, sometimes truly terrible things do happen. Rolling your eyes at things you don't know of might cause a lot more pain to truly good people than annoyance to truly whiny ones; is it worth it?

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Thanks, TJ. I don't know what happened and don't really want to know. But your announcement was very gentlemanly, as usual. :-)

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Well duhhh, he's the VIP of gentlemanliness here on the site. xd.png

 

~Removed~

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Well duhhh, he's the VIP of gentlemanliness here on the site.

 

He is that, indeed.

 

And it's not that I don't care about the sort of thing this thing appears to be. It's just that I get upset about this stuff too easily these days, and so I'd rather not know, since I can do nothing. Well, except to offer my condolences to whoever the victims are, and hope it doesn't happen again.

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I have now been told what happened.

 

I am indeed appalled. Even at my age. *creak*

 

However, I would also say - when I was still at work, a member of staff - quite a senior one - was found to have been doing something VERY MUCH WORSE. And I mean DOING, not SAYING.

 

He was summarily fired. No-one was ever told why. The only reason I know why was that I was indirectly involved.

 

I really think that was the only way to handle it, and I applaud TJ for walking the privacy line. We have no idea what action he has in fact taken, and I for one don't want him to say. If other staff members were also involved, I imagine they too have been dealt with. Detailed discussion will only fan the flames - it's like feeding a troll - and I am sorry to say that we would almost certainly find there were supporters of the offending member, which would make it all worse. A public apology - what would that mean ? Someone gives you the words to say ? Given the offence - we all know how genuine it would be, so what would be the point. I am in no way dismissing the offence - it was shocking - but I can't see the point trying to get everything out into the light in threads.

 

I am actually surprised this thread is still open.

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He was summarily fired. No-one was ever told why. The only reason I know why was that I was indirectly involved.

This is how it should be handled, but you can find out very easily at the moment, just by looking at some staff's private sites or even just asking some people. After my first post here, I got information by no less than 5 different people - without asking.

 

 

@TJ: self-proclaimed witch-hunters are as bad as the witches they burn, even if burning would be justified. I hope you know that, and make them aware that it does not do for site staff to proclaim self-justice to anything that makes them worry - that's what authorities are for.

 

When I find a multiscroller, name abuse or anything else, I report it. I don't viewbomb the member in question. I don't harass them via tumblr, forums or messenger. I go to the authorities. Same should hold true for STAFF, if they are not the authority. And in that specific case, this can only be you.

Edited by whitebaron

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Wow apparently this thread was hot while I was online but I didn't notice because I was playing a MOBA at the time.

 

I'm kind of curious what happened now, especially because the word 'Asian' was brought up and I'm Asian...

 

Anyway, I was a guild officer several times in MMOs and I must agree with TJ's course of action, which includes a review of his (the leader's) thoughts on the matter, but without forcing anyone else to make a public statement. Being the decision maker for a large group of individuals kind of forces you to be equivocal, so those of you who are clamoring for a public apology for some sort, I'm not saying you are or are not entitled to one (I actually don't even know what happened), but TJ is not the one who did wrong (I think...as I said, I don't actually know xd.png), and for him to 'force' an apology from someone defeats the purpose of an apology. I'm sure TJ strives to be fair to be all sides of the issue, and this announcement is a good compromise in place of a public apology.

Edited by Silveraen

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I do not understand the people who want the person to be forced to give a public apology. If it they were to give a truly sincere one in the first place, the situation would not have escalated as far as it did.

 

I myself once knowingly talked to somebody on a different site about a situation I dealt with before, knowing every single detail about the situation but pretended that I didn't when I was talking to them. This person was a staff member. I asked them what had happened, and they still lied about the entire situation where even though I knew exactly what happened I truly would have forgiven me if they told me the truth and gave a sincere apology.

 

And... well, they didn't. They still straight-up lied to me and only gave me an apology that sounded sincere, but I knew it was not truly sincere because I had access to information about the entire situation. Information that, mind you, I could not have possibly known had I not had one of my other staff members do the right thing and report this person (which they considered a friend) despite how uncomfortable they felt doing so. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, even when something is being handled 100% privately... the person (general person here, I am not referring to the person this thread is talking about) involved still has the choice of disregarding everything and being insincere and even outright lying about the situation even when they are aware telling the truth and owning up to it is likely to have them be forgiven (being forgiven doesn't always mean getting out of some form of punishment, however).

 

So the people who ask for forced apologies, please keep what I just said in mind. If the person in a situation feels like they truly need to apologise, they will. If they don't feel like they have to, or don't want to, then they won't apologise. That is just the way it is. It is better left this way instead of forcing people to do things, whether they were planning to do said things or not. You may certainly ask for a personal apology if you were directly involved in a situation, but a big one intended to be made towards the public is a huge thing to do. That's why if it were to happen, it needs to actually be the person's choice to do so.

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I find it quite odd that some people are curious about possible drama that was behind all the curtains where it should be kept, instead of going and being "HEY, HEY! I WANNA KNOW, PM MEEEE!". Don't they acknowledge what curiosity did to the cat 9 (or less) times?

 

Obviously, I know nothing about the situation. But anyone, who demands someone to force (or even to "force") another to apologize publicly, is an absolute moron in my books. In fact... have they ever tried to force wild animal do something on their behalf?

Basically, we are "wild animals" (quotation marks for reason) and can't be forced to do things. We can't tell anyone to tell the truth instead of lying. We can't drag person around to places where they don't want. And we can't tell them what to listen or do. At least not without violence and in-humane methods of forcing/threatning.

 

If you acknowledge that people using drugs need to be willing to participate into rehabilitation and can't be forced to be there... do understand that same can be said from this very thing. We can't make someone apologize publicly. I know. It may seem far-fetched example, but the root of the good results are the same: acknowledging the situation, accepting it, and most importantly, willingness to go through it.

 

I applaud to TJ about keeping the entire thing where it should be, behind the curtains, away from the audience. And I am glad to know that TJ is there to listen in case something just... goes wrong with the moderators or anyone else.

 

Those who were demanding/asking/whatever for public apologize: Grow up, start thinking, and stop being inhumane.

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I think Commander Wymsy makes a good point.

Whether or not a person makes their view heard about an issue doesn't change the fact that they may possess or continue to possess the view now or in the past or into the future. Getting a person to apologise doesn't necessarily mean that they change their view any inch whatsoever, rendering the apology itself redundant.

 

Indeed, there are many individuals I am sure in our world who never make such views known, especially if they know that support of others is more important than the satisfaction of making their true view known. Which is more reprehensible, the person who said or the person who did not say but continued to hold that point of view and let it influence their decisions?

I find it quite odd that some people are curious about possible drama that was behind all the curtains where it should be kept, instead of going and being "HEY, HEY! I WANNA KNOW, PM MEEEE!".

Those who were demanding/asking/whatever for public apologize: Grow up, start thinking, and stop being inhumane.

I find it quite odd that you assume that individuals are being "inhumane" without first knowing how the situation arose in the first place.

 

When a person chooses to use drugs, they primarily choose to impact on their own health.

 

The rights of life, freedom of speech, religion, association and non-discrimination are primarily unimpinged by the direct act of taking substances. What is private should remain private, but individuals may find that the internet itself is an institution that makes it difficult to remove public information once it is made public by the decision of the person in the initial case. That is what we are always taught.

 

Perhaps it is better that individuals find their own answers without asking for the help of their peers but perhaps it is also important that people aren't immediately seen as "demanding/asking". Maybe they wish to make an informed judgement?

 

The individual in question is entitled to the same right of privacy. It is unbefitting for individuals to publically shame an individual. In any case, I feel that a public announcement would do absolutely nothing other than reaffirm the same situation in the individual that others are so opposed to.

Edited by DarkEternity

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Well I've the gist of what went down.

 

I'm a bit surprised at how extreme it was and I understand why certain individuals are demanding a public apology. I do agree that it's bigger than a personal issue, and that a personal private apology doesn't cover the magnitude of what was said. However, I still stand by what I and several other people have said before: that a forced apology is worthless by definition. It would be nice if that person sees the error of her thoughts, but it's pointless to force her to make an insincere statement.

 

To the people who are telling others to grow up because they are demanding an apology; what you are doing is not defending someone's privacy but attacking someone else's decisions, primarily with assumptions, which actually makes you the immature one.

 

Let TJ decide what to do; the person in question has the freedom to think whatever she wants, ignorant as those thoughts may be, but the site ultimately belongs to TJ, and he gets to decide if he wants his site associated with that kind of ignorance. In terms of an 'apology,' I rather have none than an insincere one.

Edited by Silveraen

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~Removed~ Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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