ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

[Syphoneira]

multi-clutching would not wreck damage on the AP. 

 

-- The AP block is turned off. However many eggs in the AP no longer blocks the cave for hunting. That argument is no longer valid.

 

-- The argument of too many eggs in the AP is not damaging anything at all either and not valid. So there will be "too many" eggs in the AP. Big deal.  All it means is that we will have the ability to hunt for lower time eggs than are currently showing now.  Just like when TJ turned AP block off.. everyone was snatching up all those ERable eggs. Eventually it balanced out and we are back to seeing a wall of eggs that are not quite ERable.  Multi-clutching will not change that.. we might get a short term flood of ERables, but it will balance out again eventually.  Everyone one knows that AP eggs won't be ignored when they hit the magical time for ER'ing - even messy inbred lineages get snapped up by someone.  People will either grab them for neglected experiments or ER them until they hatch and then either keep them, trade them, freeze them or throw them back to the AP for someone else to take. Unwanted hatchlings thrown back to the AP are snatched up even faster than ERable eggs in spite of whatever horrible lineage it might have.

 

 

I have to wonder, would this hold true if there were 3-4 times as many messy inbreds potentially produced, and if even a few people with long scrolls decided that they'd like to breed all of their possibly thousands of uglies on a regular basis because they could, and people stopped picking through the AP whenever they could find nothing they wanted and only a wall of messies?

 

With the huge list of AP cleaner (edit: programs) and various encouragements (edit: offered those picking up and Freezing/not breeding uglies), we didn't get the AP problem fixed until after both the multi-clutching and Cave-blocking were stopped.

 

Return either of those variables into the situation, and I suspect that the problems would return with them.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Syphoneira

[Fuzzbucket]

If multiclutching were a BSA that would inevitably limit evil mass breeders to a degree... ALSO - suppose one could only use it scroll-wide once a week or something ?

[Amazon_warrior]

 

I have to wonder, would this hold true if there were 3-4 times as many messy inbreds potentially produced, and if even a few people with long scrolls decided that they'd like to breed all of their possibly thousands of uglies on a regular basis because they could, and people stopped picking through the AP whenever they could find nothing they wanted and only a wall of messies?

 

With the huge list of AP cleaner (edit: programs) and various encouragements (edit: offered those picking up and Freezing/not breeding uglies), we didn't get the AP problem fixed until after both the multi-clutching and Cave-blocking were stopped.

 

Return either of those variables into the situation, and I suspect that the problems would return with them.

Not sure how much that's going to be a problem if it's staggered as per olympe's suggestion (CBs can breed up to 4 eggs, 2Gs up to 3, etc.), just for ALL dragons not just prizes. Which, incidentally, I fully support. And iirc correctly, TJ noted that it could be implemented for any dragon. TBH, this is the "solution" I'm hoping for. Prize lineages are nice and all, but there are a whole bunch of other lineages I work on that I'd frankly like a shot at multiclutches from to help get the egg I'm looking for. Not even shiny eggs, necessarily. It might also help increase the populations of some of the more "difficult" commons at the moment - you know the ones, they're IMPOSSIBLE to get the mate's breed from.

[CNR4806]

And what's with this obsolete "evil massbreeder" talk?

 

The main problem with AP overcrowding is completely wiped out after cave block was removed. Whether the AP has 30 eggs or 300000 eggs no longer matters as people can hunt in the biomes freely regardless.

 

In its current state, the AP's main attraction is low time eggs, with rare breeds and "good-lineaged" commons only taking a secondary position. Once the visible eggs drop to incuhatchable or ER time, they get snatched up in a notably-increased speed (evident as all major fansites generate significantly less view-per-egg during such period).

 

Whether I massbreed fifty 2nd gen golds or fifty 123435246356th gen inbred mint into the AP simply doesn't matter in the long run, as they will all get picked up, eventually.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@CNR: As someone who hunts the AP I can still say that finding nothing but a wall of 394734 gen messy inbred mints drastically reduces my desire to hunt there, so they do still have an unpleasant impact--even if it's not as strong as it used to be X___x

 

I think I'd rather still see a slim chance of multiclutching for everything (combined with better breeding ratios for CB Prizes). If it was a rare chance, like 5%, it wouldn't have a substantial impact either way on the AP while still adding something fun back to the breeding process.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

And what's with this obsolete "evil massbreeder" talk?

 

The main problem with AP overcrowding is completely wiped out after cave block was removed. Whether the AP has 30 eggs or 300000 eggs no longer matters as people can hunt in the biomes freely regardless.

 

In its current state, the AP's main attraction is low time eggs, with rare breeds and "good-lineaged" commons only taking a secondary position. Once the visible eggs drop to incuhatchable or ER time, they get snatched up in a notably-increased speed (evident as all major fansites generate significantly less view-per-egg during such period).

 

Whether I massbreed fifty 2nd gen golds or fifty 123435246356th gen inbred mint into the AP simply doesn't matter in the long run, as they will all get picked up, eventually.

Oh yes - I agree - it doesn't bother me anyway, when there is a wall of stuff. But people do raise the "spectre" of mass breeding as an issue if we got multiclutching, is all. And if it were only able to be used once or twice weekly or something, that should be OK anyhow, no ?

[TheGrox]

Why not just make a multiclutching BSA which has a long cooldown? And maybe put it on a fairly uncommon breed so it's not as easy to hoard them and use multiclutching on everything?

 

In all honesty I couldn't care less about these 'evil massbreeders'... But obviously some people feel more strongly about it.

Edited February 22, 2014 by TheGrox

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Why not just make a multiclutching BSA which has a long cooldown? And maybe put it on a fairly uncommon breed so it's not as easy to hoard them and use multiclutching on everything?

I think it depends how the BSA works. I'd love to shower extra checkers and metals down on the AP, but if it was a BSA like fertility where I had to go through and apply it one by one, let's be honest, I'm not going to bother dealing with it just for the benefit of AP hunters. But if it was a scroll-wide application then it'd be different (maybe two week cooldown, applied for one day?).

 

I still think a low percent chance of anything multiclutching would work just fine too, though.

[TheGrox]

I still think a low percent chance of anything multiclutching would work just fine too, though.

I wouldn't mind that either. But I don't think that would solve the prize 'issue', unless prizes had a much higher chance than everything else.

Edited February 22, 2014 by TheGrox

[Tawanda001]

Has anybody come up with a downside to the staggered multiclutching according to gen?

So far it's my favorite solution, whether it's for all breeds or not, though to me it makes more sense for it to apply only to prizes since they are sort of limited edition CB's like holidays are limited edition CB's.

[rumor33]

I think this would help, but I would honestly prefer seeing it happen through the fertility rework, or see it as a new Multiclutch BSA. That way prize owners could choose to use it if they want, and I would imagine most would if it gave them a better chance of getting at least one shiny every time.

Edited February 22, 2014 by rumor33

[WraithZephyr]

As someone who hunts the AP I can still say that finding nothing but a wall of 394734 gen messy inbred mints drastically reduces my desire to hunt there, so they do still have an unpleasant impact--even if it's not as strong as it used to be X___x

but you are hunting through eggs that are NOT at ER-able status yet and therefore not as desired at the moment. Once they hit the magical clock time, they get picked up. I've seen the walls of mints and other breeds.. they sit there until incu-hatchable ER time rolls around and then they vanish like hot-cakes regardless of how messy the lineages are.

 

Multi-clutching would not change that part of the AP even when you take mass breeders into consideration. Just because all dragons could multi-clutch doesn't mean that they will be popping out 3-4 eggs every time with every breeding. Breed ratios still play a part in the game. Once a breed hits their allotted magical ratio - the number of eggs produced by that breed will drop to nothing.

 

Example (very loose). If the ratio limit for the day for mints is say 40 then after 40 mint eggs are produced, mint dragons are not going to produce anymore mint babies until the ratio says they should start producing more again. So what difference is a mass breeder breeding 40 pairs of mint dragons to produce 40 mints (with no multi-clutch feature) than someone else breeding 10 pairs of mint dragons that multi-clutch and hit on 4 eggs with each of those 10 breedings. Of course no one will be that insanely lucky to hit 4 eggs each time as multi-clutches will likely average 0-2 eggs with rarer 3-4 egg outputs, but still... 40 mint eggs is still 40 mint eggs regardless of how it came to be. And people will still wait for eggs to hit the magical ER time before snatching messy ugly stuff from the AP.

[cyradis4]

but you are hunting through eggs that are NOT at ER-able status yet and therefore not as desired at the moment. Once they hit the magical clock time, they get picked up. I've seen the walls of mints and other breeds.. they sit there until incu-hatchable ER time rolls around and then they vanish like hot-cakes regardless of how messy the lineages are.

 

Multi-clutching would not change that part of the AP even when you take mass breeders into consideration. Just because all dragons could multi-clutch doesn't mean that they will be popping out 3-4 eggs every time with every breeding. Breed ratios still play a part in the game. Once a breed hits their allotted magical ratio - the number of eggs produced by that breed will drop to nothing.

 

Example (very loose). If the ratio limit for the day for mints is say 40 then after 40 mint eggs are produced, mint dragons are not going to produce anymore mint babies until the ratio says they should start producing more again. So what difference is a mass breeder breeding 40 pairs of mint dragons to produce 40 mints (with no multi-clutch feature) than someone else breeding 10 pairs of mint dragons that multi-clutch and hit on 4 eggs with each of those 10 breedings. Of course no one will be that insanely lucky to hit 4 eggs each time as multi-clutches will likely average 0-2 eggs with rarer 3-4 egg outputs, but still... 40 mint eggs is still 40 mint eggs regardless of how it came to be. And people will still wait for eggs to hit the magical ER time before snatching messy ugly stuff from the AP.

This. I've seen the mint walls myself, and as soon as they drop below the incu-hatchable threashold (5 days) they start vanishing. Fast.

 

Right now, the AP is up around 5d, 17 hours. I really do wish that someone would mass-breed mints, which would drop the AP back to incu-hatchable status, probably for a while. It always takes the AP a while to recover after a holiday interlude, because most people are focusing on the Holidays and not on picking up CBs or breeding. Thereby reducing the supply in the AP, and forcing the time left on them up.

 

My strong preference is to just bring back multi-clutching across the board. I often do 5th or 6th gen checkers, and having even the higher gens multi-clutch would really help when it comes time to select the eggs needed. But, I would settle for having a stepped multi-clutching.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fiona]

Not sure how much that's going to be a problem if it's staggered as per olympe's suggestion (CBs can breed up to 4 eggs, 2Gs up to 3, etc.), just for ALL dragons not just prizes. Which, incidentally, I fully support. And iirc correctly, TJ noted that it could be implemented for any dragon. TBH, this is the "solution" I'm hoping for. Prize lineages are nice and all, but there are a whole bunch of other lineages I work on that I'd frankly like a shot at multiclutches from to help get the egg I'm looking for. Not even shiny eggs, necessarily. It might also help increase the populations of some of the more "difficult" commons at the moment - you know the ones, they're IMPOSSIBLE to get the mate's breed from.

This please. I couldn't quickly find Olympe's post to quote that but I would dearly like this. For one thing, it might just solve teh Stripes problem - as in, I breed pairs hoping for specific colors and get anything except the one I want. If the lower gens multi-clutched chances are better that I'd get the color I wanted. Ridgies and dorsals might benefit in the same way.

 

I don't see any convincing arguments to suggest this would actually impact the AP in a negative way. Saying "if if if" doesn't in any way present a convincing argument against something. The AP problem of the past is solved and we haven't seen what impact multi-clutching would actually have under the new system, except what we've seen with holidays, which are different.

 

What we do see under the current system is that interruptions to the normal flow of the game like holidays brings the visible eggs under 4 days. The situation quickly rights itself though as those eggs disappear very quickly and once the interruption is past it only takes a few hours for the inta-hatchable or incu-hatchable eggs to be snapped up - regardless of lineage. Yes, low-gen multi-clutching would add more eggs to the AP. Based on observation though I don't see a reason to anticipate a problem.

 

Also, I don't see any reason to limit us to "once a week" multi-clutches or any such strict restriction. Just make it so the chances of a multi-clutch are calculated on the higher gen dragon in a pair, and staggered as suggested. The increased 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen eggs going to the AP would most likely be very welcome.

[Guillotine]

Universal staggered multiclutching would be best, if Prize-only staggered multiclutching is out of the question. I think having it staggered would help keep floods of any breed from becoming completely unmanageable while also being convenient (which is important). I probably wouldn't remember to use a scroll-wide BSA 90% of the time, and I definitely wouldn't use a BSA that had to be used per dragon.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Ahaha oh boy time to play devil's advocate

 

As much as I would love to only see the lower gens multiclutch (higher chances of more nice lines and less nasty crappy 398434 gen inbreds in AP yayyy, although even then I'd rather see non-patterned lines affected instead of just high gens... high gen nice lineages are awesome)... it does kind of suggest that the lower gens are more valuable. Which in many cases the player base agrees with, but it'd still be the first major step the game has taken to endorse it. I think it's acceptable with Prizes because they have such limited distribution (although even then I think general, rare chance of multiclutch for all dragons might work better), but I'm not sure spreading it to all dragons is the right way to go... no matter how much I'd personally enjoy it.

Edited February 23, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[xeyla]

This please. I couldn't quickly find Olympe's post to quote that but I would dearly like this. For one thing, it might just solve teh Stripes problem - as in, I breed pairs hoping for specific colors and get anything except the one I want. If the lower gens multi-clutched chances are better that I'd get the color I wanted. Ridgies and dorsals might benefit in the same way.

 

I don't see any convincing arguments to suggest this would actually impact the AP in a negative way. Saying "if if if" doesn't in any way present a convincing argument against something. The AP problem of the past is solved and we haven't seen what impact multi-clutching would actually have under the new system, except what we've seen with holidays, which are different.

 

What we do see under the current system is that interruptions to the normal flow of the game like holidays brings the visible eggs under 4 days. The situation quickly rights itself though as those eggs disappear very quickly and once the interruption is past it only takes a few hours for the inta-hatchable or incu-hatchable eggs to be snapped up - regardless of lineage. Yes, low-gen multi-clutching would add more eggs to the AP. Based on observation though I don't see a reason to anticipate a problem.

 

Also, I don't see any reason to limit us to "once a week" multi-clutches or any such strict restriction. Just make it so the chances of a multi-clutch are calculated on the higher gen dragon in a pair, and staggered as suggested. The increased 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen eggs going to the AP would most likely be very welcome.

I totally agree with this. I would love to have multi-clutching turned back on since the AP no longer blocks the cave, which was the original reason it was turned off (I think), when too many people complained about it. Complained is not the right word, more like disliking the blockage.

 

I have no problems with the AP getting more and more eggs in it, they get to low-time, and people can hatch right away without the 2 day wait. If the AP ever blocks the cave, then by all means, turn off the multi-clutching.

 

I want all of my breedings to have this ability, not based on generation in a lineage. I would like a random chance for all of my breedings.

[AnanoKimi]

I agree with Xeyla and FIona, Multi clutching for all dragons would be nice. Randomized even better. I really can't say much, they said it better.

[olympe]

Has anybody come up with a downside to the staggered multiclutching according to gen?

So far it's my favorite solution, whether it's for all breeds or not, though to me it makes more sense for it to apply only to prizes since they are sort of limited edition CB's like holidays are limited edition CB's.

The only thing I can think of is that this would mean dragons aren't "equal" anymore. Right now, there's no difference (for the game) between CBs and messy inbreds of the umpteenth generation. Changing that would change a core principle of DC.

 

However, if the suggestion to change how the Fertility BSA works into a mechanism that allows for multi-clutching, this might just work. Without any changes to any core principles of DC.

 

Not to mention TJ put forth the suggestion to change the Fertility BSA in the way described above...

[whitebaron]

Has anybody come up with a downside to the staggered multiclutching according to gen?

So far it's my favorite solution, whether it's for all breeds or not, though to me it makes more sense for it to apply only to prizes since they are sort of limited edition CB's like holidays are limited edition CB's.

Staggered multiclutching has two downsides:

 

One, from a general ratio standpoint: unless there is guarantee to not have more than one prize in any given clutch, it will just produce the dragons earlier in the year, meaning that those who trade or give it away get them both earlier (good) and less of them, as the rest goes to ap (bad for the trader, as it does nothing to improve the bad list situation - random chance pickups are nice from the ap, but they do not help the problem of trading)

 

Second, from an even gen lineage standpoint: say you want to build something larger, like my 7g projects.

You need 64 cb, which will produce 2g easily (4 clutch). Then 3g about the same. But the further up you go, the harder it will get. You have less dragons to breed, less chance to get an egg, and worst of it, you'll only ever get one egg, making checkers as hard to do as they are currently - but wait, no, even worse, as multiclutching influences ratios, making low gens earlier to breed, taking from the ratios parts of the higher gens.

[WraithZephyr]

I totally agree with this. I would love to have multi-clutching turned back on since the AP no longer blocks the cave, which was the original reason it was turned off (I think), when too many people complained about it. Complained is not the right word, more like disliking the blockage.

actually multi-clutch existed because there were more people wanting eggs than what was being produced. It was actually very common to have the AP completely empty of eggs because there were none being produced. This is also why there were rare occasions when wild dragons would breed their eggs would end up in the AP rather than stay in the wilderness. Multi-clutch helped provide additional eggs to deal with some of the demand. Once the game became popular enough that people could produce enough eggs to satisfy demand from random/occasional breedings, multi-clutch was turned off for dragons (except on holidays).

 

 

I personally would love to see multi-clutch be a BSA function and applied equally with all dragons having random chance for x-number of eggs rather than only CB's getting the chance for 4 eggs, 2nd gens for 3 eggs, etc. But if it does wind up being a generational thing, then to be fair it should be applied to all dragon species - not just prizes.

[AnanoKimi]

So here goes. This happened:

 

Well this might be a stretch and TJ can throw a Rock Dragon egg at my head for saying this... but... why not have control over these multiclutched eggs... I know this can lead to hoarding and what not but...

 

Instead of keeping them, we are given two options, Abandon the extra eggs, or allow our magis to hold them in transfer trades. Any trades cancelled would auto abandon the eggs. This is crazy I know... but... yeah. Either you gift them or abandon them and you keep one out of all of them. With a maximum of 4 eggs per pairing, 1 we could keep which leaves 1-3 to be abandoned or transferred.

 

This would be great for Prize owners and heck maybe even other breeders. Lineage breeders would benefit from this. They can automatically have eggs they need to give to other for family lineages or whatever to hand them out as soon as their laid and to knock 1-3 people off their waiting list. If all dragons are allowed to multi clutch then this would be nice.

 

*hides in terror of possible on coming projectiles* Just sayin! >w< Please don't kill me! I know its a completely insane and probably not possible idea but an idea none the less!

 

EDIT:

 

One more thing. if transfers are not claimed, once the egg reaches 3 Days 23 Hours, it will be auto abandoned.

 

*hides once again* I'm too young to die.

I think having a stricter time limit if this idea was to be implemented would be the way to go (like the 24 hours on holiday dragons in the past though only used as example).

 

The reason behind it being it might help limit hoarding/gaining the high trade values on a multi clutch of 4 for example over several days. As the intention behind this is to spread the wealth but more importantly the lineages in some cases I think this might help, especially those that would not want to lose control of their dragons (prizes or not).

Sounds good. A 24hr limit within a transfer so that those who do breed any dragons that successfully multiclutch can decide whether to abandon or gift. They would go to transfer only too, no trades. just in case.

 

*hides* whatcha think people...? This will help keep prizes as prizes and with improved breeding ratios really increase how well they spread...

[Fuzzbucket]

Multiclutching ONLY if it worked like holidays - you can only control ONE egg from a clutch. Otherwise it still leaves anyone without DC mates in the cold. They NEED to go to the AP to spread the happys,

[lilacamy931]

Mostly agree with that fuzzbucket, I was thinking of a happy medium for those that refuse to breed theirs if multi-clutching became a thing. Would this be a meet in the middle?

 

EDIT for good and bad points..based prizes only

Multi clutching - 1-4 eggs and all auto abandon:

Good:

- Far chance all to get a chance to grab one

- Spreads some of the wealth which in turn lessens pressure prize owners, lists hopefully become easier etc etc.

- Happier players?

 

Bad:

- The fastest who gain metallics now likely to get them, especially as the clever kids will watch for breedings and track eggs through AP.

- Some prizes may become redundant as some express they simply would not breed at all if can not control egg, so whilst widening the multi clutch pool, lessens the number of prizes that can add to it.

- Will mention in small words "value" decreasing/rearranging as think the market would flood with high trade values to start and then possibly they would become more even kilter later? I know some don't want values, but this is something important to others.

 

Idea of holding multi clutch egg/s

Good

- Happy medium between the two of having and not having multiclutches if owner gets to control at least a portion?

- Still spreads the remainder of how many eggs left over to AP

- Still more chances to make happy players

 

Bad

- More control over more eggs that are already scarce = hoarding issues and not much sharing if the multi clutch isn't a big one?

- Would it be shared out with the intention of spreading wealth or to put it loosely make rich, richer?

- Would it create worst trading behaviours than good, since some do not like the market dominance already

 

Off to get a coffee, sorry if input rubbish

 

Edited February 24, 2014 by lilacamy931

[Fuzzbucket]

I was all for making it a BSA so that the people who did not want to breed a clutch could just not use it. And I'd be fine with it being a BSA to be used on any dragon - as long as there was a cooldown on the whole scroll.