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Sheriziya

ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

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As far as "I'd rather see more CB prizes", TJ has already pretty much vetoed that, so that leaves us trying to work with other alternatives, such as multi-clutches, better breeding rates, etc. There isn't going to be a perfect solution that makes everyone happy, I think it will basically come down to picking the lesser of the evils, or simply leaving things as they are.

I haven't seen he's veto-ed that. Where did he do that? Also, the combo suggestion is for a big part related to releasing prizes in the cave and TJ wanted every base of the combo suggestion (including this multi-clutch option) being discussed in it's own topic. Why would he say ALL base parts of the combo suggestion should have its own discussion topic if he'd already veto-ed the most important part of the combo suggestion.

 

As for getting back on topic, I agree with C4, it's not the actual prizes that's the problem, but the way it's been implemented. And the way the prizes are now being released is the point we're discussing in the various topics.

 

I still think the multi-clutch is a viable option, be it through a BSA, a general implementation on the prize dragons or a return of the general multiclutch for all dragon breeds. I think it will help (mind you, not solve!) the problems which have been addressed in the various topics.

Edited by Sheriziya

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So winning a prize dragon is not enough in and of itself?

Prize winners are also entitled to be given access to basically the whole trade market through breeding, as a part of winning. And that is more fair than an occasional prize egg going to the AP? I guess I just don't understand how that is fair to anyone other than the prize winners.

multi-clutching does not change the prize winner's access to the trade market in their favor. They currently control the market lock-stock-barrel. Having multi-clutches would loosen up the market a little. They only get to control 1 egg from a clutch. If there are other eggs in the clutch, they go to the AP.

 

Having some 2nd gens make it to the AP opens up the chance for people to get something nice that they probably could never have obtained through trade with the breeder. Look how long tinsels have been out... I have not been able to obtain any 2nd gen despite having nice things to trade - it's impossible to get on a list. The CB owners are basically trading 2nd gens between themselves or for huge numbers of CB golds. While not all cb owners are doing that, there are still very few 2nd gens getting outside of that circle into the general population so to speak. I only managed to squeak by early that very first year for tinsels and get (2) 3rd gens before the trade values shot up to astronomical levels. Have not been able to get any 3rd gen since... not even from the first year tinsel lines. The best I can manage are 4th gens and up.

 

 

I don't like that the shimmer owner have no control over their dragons. I'm sorry, but I don't like this suggestion, not in this way.

If I would be one of them I won't breed again, or I would ask to some friend to try to take the spawned eggs that are falled into the AP.

It's not fair for them, that's all sad.gif

 

Maybe I would accept it if their eggs don't go into the AP, but stay in their scroll, so they can decide what to do with them.

If there are no eggs in the AP, then there is no game.

 

Multi-clutching used to be standard part of the game for all dragons. The rule has ALWAYS been you only get to control ONE egg from any given clutch. Extra eggs must always go to the AP for anyone to grab to keep the game fair and active. If you do not like that people can't control ALL of their dragons, then you are not playing in the spirit of the game at all. You also probably would not have liked the game at all years ago...because if your dragons bred 4 eggs - you lost 3 of them to other people (I had my share of seeing extra gold eggs hit the AP that I couldn't "control"). Now... are you equally upset that when a person with a CB holly breeds 4 holly eggs they can only keep one egg and lose the others? If you were hunting the AP - would you give those 2nd gen hollies you picked up back to the breeder? I mean like because it's just not fair that they couldn't control ALL of those eggs (even though lack of control over all but one egg is supposed to be part of the game).

 

 

Now, if multi-clutch were to come back, I am highly in favor of it being as a BSA to allow the breeder the CHOICE to encourage their dragons to produce extra eggs or not. That way if they don't want to risk extra eggs going to the AP, they don't have to. But those who are more generous, could use the BSA to open up the chance of extra eggs being spread around in the spirit of the game.

Edited by WraithZephyr

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I haven't seen he's veto-ed that. Where did he do that?

In the closed thread he said "tl;dr: I assert that the win rate is satisfactory, you can choose whether or not to believe me.", which strongly suggest that the only way we will see more CB prizes is if we do more raffles. I wouldn't be opposed to that but it seems like the solution least likely to be implemented.

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Tawanda, you're reading things into that that simply aren't there. All he said was that the win rate is satisfactory. That's it.

 

Based on the fact that this year there were more prizes given out than last year, and that last year there were more prizes given out than the year before, I don't see any valid way to conclude anything about an increase or no increase in the number of prizes.

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Maybe I am reading into it, but I don't know how else to interpret that when he says he is satisfied with the number of prizes given out. It surely doesn't sound as though he's inclined to up the ratio of prizes handed out as compared to the number of entries. So how else would you get more CB prizes into the game?

Edited by Tawanda001

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Have to agree with Tawanda here, Fiona. The main idea at the time was that there weren't enough prizes (even after this raffle), and then TJ said the satisfactory thing and implied the thread would be closed if we kept going on about it. I suppose it implies that he's doing it on a percentage scale and it could go up again as the userbase grows, but if the current percentage remains the same then it still won't be enough in the opinion of some of us.

 

Or maybe TJ has a secret, cunning plan to slowly up the ratio until we all have one. But I kind of doubt it. xd.png

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Have to agree with Tawanda here, Fiona. The main idea at the time was that there weren't enough prizes (even after this raffle), and then TJ said the satisfactory thing and implied the thread would be closed if we kept going on about it. I suppose it implies that he's doing it on a percentage scale and it could go up again as the userbase grows, but if the current percentage remains the same then it still won't be enough in the opinion of some of us.

 

Or maybe TJ has a secret, cunning plan to slowly up the ratio until we all have one. But I kind of doubt it. xd.png

Or maybe he's feeling lazy and has no intention of ever introducing another new Prize dragon? I'd be thrilled if the only dragons that EVER were awarded as Prizes were Tinsels and SHimmers.

 

6 Shiny sprites that I can't get in CB version but others who were simply lucker can is, in my opinion, more than enough.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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He is satisfied with the number of prizes given out.

Yes, he said he is satisfied with the win rate. That I agree on. I don't agree this means he's veto-ed more CB prizes, like you think.

 

So how else would you get more CB prizes into the game?

That's where one of the other topics comes in. Mind you, this was all originally part of the combo suggestion which included much more and everything was kinda interlinked, sorta say.

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I'm not too fond of the idea of a multiclutch for prizes because (if it works anything like the holidays) the majority are dumped into the AP, where newbies that do not even know how to put their dragon into a click site are picking them up and leaving them to die. If not that, then they're certainly not breeding them in desirable lineages. Have you ever seen a messy tinsel? It's saddening.

 

I'd rather just take my extra shinies or shimmerfails and throw them to people in the forums, who I know have dedicated enough time to dragcave. I would gift them as is if prizes weren't so dang hard to breed.

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We don't need any more 6th gens or 10th gens or 15th gens, though.  What is needed is more 2nd and 3rd gens.  It's true that from the cave's perspective, there is no difference between a 15th gen and a 2nd gen.  But from the perspective of most users, there is a massive difference.  A 2nd gen is worth 5+ CB metals, a 5th gen isn't worth any (according to what is fetched in the trade markets).  It's time the cave got with the times. 

We don't "need" anything, CB or 15 gen or inbred or stairstep or anything. This game was originally a "collect the sprites" game, and all Tinsel/Shimmer sprites are the same no matter the lineage.

 

I guess it depends on just how far you think the cave should go to cater to users. There have been *many* things changed on DC as a direct result of the userbase wanting something.

 

I personally do not think that in-game lineage biases is one of those things that should be changed. Frankly, this suggestion *in general* is something I'd support: Multi-clutches for Prize dragons. I support that. I do not support a tiered bias towards CB-and-low-gen Prizes. I think if lineage biases are suggested here, maybe first there should be an in-cave poll to figure out just how much of the *overall* userbase actually cares about lineages at all.

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I'm not too fond of the idea of a multiclutch for prizes because (if it works anything like the holidays) the majority are dumped into the AP, where newbies that do not even know how to put their dragon into a click site are picking them up and leaving them to die. If not that, then they're certainly not breeding them in desirable lineages.

Multi-clutching for holidays is COMPLETELY different than it is for all other dragons.

 

With holiday multi-clutch - There is limited results. You can have between 1 - 4 eggs and you ONLY get the holiday egg produced.

 

With normal multi-clutching, you can have expanded outcomes. You can have between 0 - 4 eggs. If any eggs are produced, the eggs can be of one parent type or the other parent type or (in the case of 2-4 eggs) a random combination of both parent types (except if the other parent is a holiday since they don't breed true).

 

You can't use the same argument of holiday's dying because of newbies when it comes to prize dragons. Two completely different situations. Prize dragons never had a limit to prevent people from picking them up out of the AP. Holidays (until this past christmas) did have a limit of 2 each per scroll. Regular players could not take them from the AP because they were already at their limit. Now that the limits have been removed, that "problem" of unwanted holiday eggs no longer exists.

Edited by WraithZephyr

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Now that the limits have been removed, that "problem" of unwanted holiday eggs no longer exists.

You're telling me. I spent HOURS trying to catch Vals in the AP this morning.... Can't be done (I swear people must be using snaplinks...) But clearly they are wanted and then some !

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You're telling me. I spent HOURS trying to catch Vals in the AP this morning.... Can't be done (I swear people must be using snaplinks...) But clearly they are wanted and then some !

I'm on a 3g connection and I'm catching them, so its not impossible. tongue.gif But it is hard! This year. Next year *pets pretty Vals* there will be lots and lots and lots more.

 

But yea, my view on multi-clutching is make it general to the entire game. Every dragon, regardless of generation, gets to multi-clutch. The AP no longer blocks the cave, so all the extras will do is help the ratio. And you've a higher chance of a dragon of the breed you want.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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You're telling me. I spent HOURS trying to catch Vals in the AP this morning.... Can't be done (I swear people must be using snaplinks...) But clearly they are wanted and then some !

Not easy but it is doable if you don't bother to focus on the two left most eggs.. and instead concentrate on those further to the right when they appear. smile.gif I caught a few nice ones that I was able to then trade for pairings I actually needed.

 

Even on the off chance that multi-clutch skews more towards producing eggs of the prize parent than the other parent, the distribution and catching of those extra eggs within the AP will still be more than fair for everyone. Prizes don't behave like holidays.. no "front of the line" perk for the prizes. Just like all other dragons, they'll randomly show up within the rest of the AP eggs based on the clock time. Someone who is bad at catching would have just about the same chance at getting a prize egg than an experienced AP hunter... 90% of the time it's more about having your cursor over the right spot at the right time. A bad catcher whose cursor happens to be hovering on the egg spot where a prize egg appears on refresh will click faster (& likely grab it successfully) than the most skilled catcher who was hovering over a different egg spot and has to take the time to move their cursor several egg spots over to click on the prize egg.

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The problem with this splitting into separate threads for each suggestion is that the Prize multi-clutches only work for everyone if the ratios are increased for Prize reproduction...

 

If the CB/low-gen Prize owners don't start getting more Prize eggs, their lists will continue to languish and if they get no Prize eggs for a month or two and then 2 in one batch and one goes to the AP, they're not going to be happy with this any more than would be their listers, or those who can muster the wherewithal to get on a list but can't because the lists aren't moving, or those who can never hope to get the fabulous amounts required to get on a list, even if there were any spaces available.

 

Without improvements, DC continues to become even more dysfunctional and split into 'rich' and 'poor' player categories, with the bulk of players effectively shut out of part of the game, with so many having their sights set on either virtually unobtainable low-gen Prizes or on impossible-to-catch-for-many CB Golds or other trade fodder for Prize eggs/lists or, rather, the hope of these, making these 'fodder' metallics also even further out of reach than they already would be, for those needing them as lineage mates/scroll completion; dragons continue to be assessed as potential value for trade fodder, rather than valued for their sprites, as was once the purpose of the game; and more and more people start only bothering to come for Holiday Releases and infrequent New Releases, whenever they occur as planned, and when the new dragons are catchable in a reasonable amount of time.

 

What happens to DC and our dragons if too few people bother to come, because it's only fun for the declining few who can afford fast systems and trade for what they can't catch?

 

I'm holding and currently hatching nice 2nd-gen Val eggs for someone who isn't new but has trouble catching on the AP, who hasn't been on in two days to even find out about them; waiting to hear from someone I've PMed twice in the last few days, for whom I agreed to breed at Valentine's season perhaps a couple of months ago and have been leaving spaces I'd like to have filled with pretties, as a result - there seem to be so many people not on at all even in Val breeding time, in the first season we can have extras of these older ones!

 

Too many people are getting discouraged...

 

Yes, some of us like lineage breeding, but we still need the dragons/mates we need for the lineages we want, and a lot of people want low-gen Prizes or CB Golds/Silvers/Coppers - massively collected, often not because wanted for the sprites but as trade fodder, by some of the fastest in the hope of getting on Prize lists - and in short supply for those slower catchers who need them for lineages.

 

The scarcity of the Prizes and the low reproduction rates have wide-ranging effects.

 

 

And honestly, probably a lot of us of us don't need to spend our fun time in a virtual world mirroring the current RL as far as great and increasing disparity of wealth and opportunity goes.

 

We'd like our recreational time to be spent on something we don't have to struggle and fail at without any real hope, for a change from the real world...

 

At least, if the Prize breeding was both significantly increased and multiclutches were instituted in the descending order suggested from CB Prizes to 3rd gens, there would be some improvement and gradually less insanity in the degree of fanaticism only to be expected from a group of dragon collectors in a virtual game of this type, with such scarcity introduced.

 

The more fails are introduced, the less fun it is for the have-nots, who probably and increasingly pretty much outnumber the haves 99 to 1%, and I wonder how long the site will last, if too many people just stop bothering.

 

Some of us are just stupidly attached to our dragons...

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The problem with this splitting into separate threads for each suggestion is that the Prize multi-clutches only work for everyone if the ratios are increased for Prize reproduction...

Yes, I know. I've PM-ed TJ that the whole combo suggestion had a base of things we thought were interlink/dependandable or however you say that in English. He wanted everything discussed seperately though and closed the other thread with that decision.

It was not my wish (nor from Naruhina and ADP) to discuss everything separately.

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Out of all of the suggestions born of the improve the raffle thread, this is my favorite. It decentralizes the prizes from a tight-knit trading community of relatively wealthy players and makes extras from multiclutches available on the AP to all players.

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Yep. My ability to trade is limited (or perhaps I am limited by my unwillingness to go through the hoops), but I can hunt the AP. Even if 'multiclutch' = two, I have a chance at being in the right place at the right time.

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This was my favorite of the suggestions from the other thread, so I fully support it. I've said before how I was lucky enough to catch a 3rd gen Tinsel in the AP and how happy it made me. It would be wonderful if more people here got to experience that.

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I'm of two minds about this. While I'd like to see more lower gens available to everyone, and not just the Elite Few, something this target-specific for mandatory multi-clutching for Prize dragons only, isn't truly fair, no matter how much I'd love to have a low-gen Prize.

 

Like others have said, I do remember when everything had a small chance of multi-clutching, and I honestly wouldn't mind it being re-instituted as long as either 1.) if you demand keep to it being just for Prize dragons, then it should be a voluntary BSA or 2.) making it a mandatory possibility for ALL dragons being bred as it originally was in the game. (I was actually excited at my first multi-clutch; they we all the wrong breed, but hey! 4 eggs! xd.png ...I kind of miss those days. )

 

As pointed out, the old multi-clutching was stopped once we started getting walls of eggs in the AP and people complained and made lots of drama, as that meant that the Cave stopped dropping CB's, which is why many commons are still referred to as "Cave Blockers." As the game runs now, this is no longer an issue as a back-up AP just stays backed up, and eggs that hit the incu-hatchable stage now seem to finds homes where they wouldn't have before.

 

People who state categorically that before Teleport that the Holly owners (or anyone for that matter) had total control over where their eggs went, have forgotten how risky AP trading was. My first caught Gold was from an interrupted trade. I just happened to click on it at the right second (on dial-up service, no less) when it showed up in the AP and got it.

 

And I was against Teleport being implemented, not because of the Holly owners whining, but because it was removing that element of chance that someone else could snag a special something, be it a Holly, or something shiny. Heck, metallics back then were almost non-existent as CBs when I joined, so snagging one on the AP was your only hope of getting one at all, unless you got gifted by someone. I saw it as a tool to level the playing field that wasn't just targeted at a specific group, but at everyone in general. Which is what we need here. Something that is fair to everyone, not just the Elite Few, and not to the Poor Majority, but everyone.

 

So...either multi-clutching a small possibility for all eggs, or as a voluntary BSA that only affects Prize dragons.

 

I may change my mind later, but this is where I'm at for now.

 

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Actually, the problem with multi-clutches wasn't only with the Cave-Blocking.

 

We had up to 4 long-lineaged/messy/inbreds of numerous (typically) commons (but mis-bred metallics were even worse, as that was a wasted Gold or Silver from a limited ratio amount, from the perspective of many at some points perhaps not getting a single shiny egg from various metallics in a year or more) being produced in each clutch, where now there's only one of each breeding, which the breeder may choose to keep rather than dumping into the AP.

 

One person breeding a scroll-full of messies every week could still block off AP access for however long to anything people hunting there might actually want or be able to use - but with multi-clutches, it could be up to 4 times as bad.

 

And if those are bred in turn...

 

Believe me, we do NOT want to go back there, lol.

 

 

The suggestion for the CB, 2nd and 3rd gen Prizes only to produce multiclutches in descending order was designed to alleviate a specific problem adversely affecting the entire Cave - the extreme scarcity of low-gen Prizes and the disparity and dysfunction this produces, which has been delineated (and generally acknowledged as well,) elsewhere.

 

The entire community participates in Raffles which only a very few can win, and probably most of the community understands that the odds of themselves or any particular person winning are practically non-existent.

 

But people do want low-gens, and the winners would like to be producing them - something that too-rarely occurs.

 

If the production rates were significantly increased (sorry, this only works together for obvious reasons involving all parties,) and the 3 highest gens produced multi-clutches, the odds are that many, (ideally all, or nearly all) breedings would produce one for the CB owner/listers and quite likely, proportionally speaking, for the 2nd and 3rd gen owners/listers, with a chance of another being produced in the clutch to randomly give something back to the general community (who didn't win and have almost no chance of ever doing so) from those lucky few who did win/were gifted/got on lists for low-gens, from time to time.

 

This is something that I personally would adore, as I have a 2nd gen and now (thanks to someone who knows who they are!) several 3rd-gens which typically don't like to produce nice surprises for anyone - smile.gif at least up until the most recent adult on the very first try. smile.gif

 

Apparently there are some owners who would prefer not to breed rather than risk any chance of sharing some odd smidge of their good fortune with the rest of the community, and that is, of course, their dragon, their choice.

 

But I suspect that not only some CB owners but many having low-gens would love to see not only better breeding results for themselves/their listers, but the opportunity of imagining the joy of whoever picked up the odd randomly gifted low(er)-gen shiny egg from the AP - this without it depriving them or their listers at all.

 

 

This suggestion isn't only about CB owners and increasing opportunities of people obtaining 2nd gens to breed, although that would represent a wonderful chance for at least some random AP hunters to start a lineage and/or supply gift/trades they could only dream of before.

 

This also prospectively improves the lot of 2nd and 3rd gen owners/listers, and enables the odd random gift from them to a community their dragons could never previously supply.

 

And I happen to have first-hand knowledge of how incredibly generous-spirited and considerate some of them can be, and can speak for the good lurking in their souls.

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Speaking as a CB tinsel owner, I would absolutely LOVE to see this + increased breeding ratio for the tinsels/shimmers. Every time I breed Brazen, I would love to see 2+ bronze eggs being produced instead of one or none at all. It's hard enough to breed for so many people on a list with a high percentage of the breeding ratio working against me for that one little tinsel. :c The more I can give back, the better.

I don't understand the mentality of "it's not fair, they can't control where the babies go!" at all.... Like others have said, we have a complete monopoly on the trade market in the entire cave. If we get to keep the CB tinsels/shimmers ratio the same instead of increasing them for the sake of more 2nd gens, why would anyone care so much about a couple extra eggs floating off to someone who would probably really love it? We'd already get to keep one of the tinsels anyway for trading purposes, so I really don't see a viable reason as to why it shouldn't be mandatory or immediately implemented.

 

I wanna see Brazen's lil babies running around like a flood of hot bronze tinsel madness. My prize gets to keep his original (well, sort of) value as a prize, and then 2nd gens will become more available for those who really seek them.

 

I don't agree with a multi-clutch BSA at all. I used to, after being here for a short while when multiclutching was still available, but knowing how much damage that would wreak on the AP is terrifying. I would much, much rather see it implemented with a favor of tinsel breeding for the prizes (as much as I would rather it be an increased chance for lower gen tinsels, I can see how this isn't exactly feasible).

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Well, personally, I'd think of it as a special ability to multi-clutch up to 4 eggs for special CB Prizes, which is, in diminishing degrees, passed on to successive generations, but with the inherent magic weakening with distance from the CB Prizes, so that 2nd gens could produce up to 3 eggs, and 3rd gens, 2, but becoming too diluted after that to make any difference.

 

DC is a world where magic exists, and I can see that magical multi-clutching gift belonging to the Prizes magically transferred onto winner's scrolls, and some of it coming down through the offspring in that manner.

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As pointed out, the old multi-clutching was stopped once we started getting walls of eggs in the AP and people complained and made lots of drama, as that meant that the Cave stopped dropping CB's, which is why many commons are still referred to as "Cave Blockers."

There are always people who start drama. Maybe they can't just live without drama at all... A lot people were complainig about Frills, because they're clogging up the cave. Later they got retired and everone was (and still is) complainig about it either. xd.png And now a lot people are complaining about the prize dragons. I think, you will never be able to please everyone.

 

Anyway, I do support the multi-clutching idea. Way more than stop releasing new prize dragons (though I still cant understand all that drama, since we got tons of beautiful dragons to make pretty lineages...) or just keeping tinsels/shimmers only.

 

But, honestly, I am not sure if multi-clutching should work for all dragons. Simply because I don't want to see more dragons get retired, because of a few, who starts a drama, because *put a species of your choice* is clogging up the AP waaaaay to much.

Edited by Elachu

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multi-clutching would not wreck damage on the AP.

 

-- The AP block is turned off. However many eggs in the AP no longer blocks the cave for hunting. That argument is no longer valid.

 

-- The argument of too many eggs in the AP is not damaging anything at all either and not valid. So there will be "too many" eggs in the AP. Big deal. All it means is that we will have the ability to hunt for lower time eggs than are currently showing now. Just like when TJ turned AP block off.. everyone was snatching up all those ERable eggs. Eventually it balanced out and we are back to seeing a wall of eggs that are not quite ERable. Multi-clutching will not change that.. we might get a short term flood of ERables, but it will balance out again eventually. Everyone one knows that AP eggs won't be ignored when they hit the magical time for ER'ing - even messy inbred lineages get snapped up by someone. People will either grab them for neglected experiments or ER them until they hatch and then either keep them, trade them, freeze them or throw them back to the AP for someone else to take. Unwanted hatchlings thrown back to the AP are snatched up even faster than ERable eggs in spite of whatever horrible lineage it might have.

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