ANSWERED:Multi clutch for Prize dragons?

[whitebaron]

@renorei: ever took a look at the trade market, huh? Most of the people who have somethimg valuable, try to trade it at high prices, as is only natural in such a free economy.

 

 

Also, I dont think we have enough high gens yet. Where there's still demand, its unfair to argue that we dont need such.

 

---

besides all that's obvious: anyone ever given a thought how badly the ratios will have to be temperef with, in addition, so that this does not actually increase the value of prizes?

 

Or that prize owners scrolls would get stalked a lot more? There are already people out there who know when low-gen prizes have been auto-ed, this will just get worse with multiclutching.

[Tawanda001]

Also, I dont think we have enough high gens yet. Where there's still demand, its unfair to argue that we dont need such.

 

What demand? High gen prizes go for a mere pittance in the trading threads, they are given away for free all day long in the departure and gifting threads, and I'm pretty sure if anyone really wanted some all they need to do is put it in their signature and people would be thrilled to fill the requests. They aren't exactly a hot commodity.

[whitebaron]

What demand? High gen prizes go for a mere pittance in the trading threads, they are given away for free all day long in the departure and gifting threads, and I'm pretty sure if anyone really wanted some all they need to do is put it in their signature and people would be thrilled to fill the requests. They aren't exactly a hot commodity.

the fact that they are still taken from departure threads and you get hatchies for them isn't demand for you? Demand says nothing about price, being "hot" does not factor in at all.

[Amazon_warrior]

Why is it ok to target Prizes like this and not, say, spriter alts or CB Thuweds? Let's have a look, shall we?

 

Spriter alts - Special recolours of special dragons. Even 2G fails can trade for anything up to and including 1:1 for a 2G Prize, or you have to be friends with that spriter or brave enough to risk angering them by randomly PMing them for an offspring. AND some give 2Gs away free but their lists are always closed! Does any of this sound familiar? Perhaps I especially want to do a lineage with alt Heartseekers! It's NOT FAIR that the game taunts me with these pretty sprites but doesn't let me do the lineages I want with them! It's no good waiting for higher gens because they have little value and aren't the pattern I want!! ;A; /irony So why don't we force spriter alts to multiclutch too so that Random Joe Public has a chance of picking, say, a baby from Walker's alt Arsani from the AP?*

 

2G Thuweds: Erratically bred, MASSIVE waiting list (TJ mentioned and other people have commented that it can be a year or more before you receive an egg). Access is only by getting on the Thuwed waiting list (which is a task in itself given that no matter when TJ breeds, a decent section of players in another part of the world are going to be offline and/or in bed) or by paying through the nose (anything up to and including a 2G Prize) for one from somebody who was lucky enough to get on the list. Sound a little bit familiar? What if I want to do a specific lineage involving certain Thuwed lines that no one else seems to want to do? It's NOT FAIR that the game taunts me with pretty things like CB Hellfires and alt Blacks but doesn't let me do the lineages I want with them! ;A; It's no good waiting for higher gens because they have little value and aren't the pattern I want!! /irony So why shouldn't ALL original Thuweds spit out multi-clutches so that Random Joe Public has a chance to get, say, a 2G from Ultraviolet x Soulpeace.**

 

 

* I'm aware that Holiday alts multi-clutch during their holidays, but only if the owner breeds them. Which they don't necessarily. And I saw how much alt offspring went for in the trading threads at Halloween and especially Christmas. So even if they do multi-clutch, you've either got to be lucky to be awake, online, and fast enough to grab one or you have to pay through the nose. And you still didn't get to choose the lineage.

 

** Again, the Thuwed Holidays multi-clutch.... if they're bred. They're not necessarily (go look at the Valentine progeny lists), and you still need to be fortunate enough to be awake/online/fast to get one and again, they trade for an arm and a leg. And that doesn't do a thing for spreading the non-Holidays about the place.

 

 

 

Why is it that no one is fighting tooth and claw to re-write the game for those other 2Gs that are widely acknowledged to be as valuable as a 2G Prize (depending on who you ask, of course). Why respect for the rights of one group to determine the fate of their dragon's offspring but not for another?

[Iside]

@Amazon_warrior

 

Well, probably because people desperatly looking for 2nd gen from spriters' alts or 2nd gen Thuweds are fairly less than people desperatly looking for 2nd prizes.

 

And if you are not able to get a 2nd gen of them you can quite easily get at least a 3rd gen (3rd gen Thuweds are traded/gifted all the time in the Do you have a Thuwed thread, and most owners of a 2nd gen from spirter's alt are willing to trade their babies for very reasonable offers)

 

While it's still very hard to get a 3rd gen prize if you don't have some cb metallics or another 3rd gen prize to swap

Edited February 7, 2014 by Iside

[DarkEternity]

Amazon_warrior - The explanation is simple. Right now CB prizes are the biggest gripe. After CB prizes are gone, I guarantee that you will see people will then fight tooth and nail over the other things... Human nature works like a pyramid.

 

Firstly: there are also more CB prizes than Spriters Alts, putting them directly in the spotlight because they are present and there is an annual event dedicated to putting a trickle of CBs into circulation. People who don't win are reminded constantly that they're never going to win.

 

Secondly: People consider spriters to be the creators of their dragons. As in any fandom, what spriters say and create are seen as the Word of God literally and metaphorically. A spriter can dictate what can and can't happen with their creations.

 

Because artists are volunteers working for free, the Alts are seen as 'payment' for the many hours they would put in to create a piece. You would not accuse them of doing nothing for their prize, and so most people possessed of logic would not go out of their way to put them down as 'not deserving' or 'greedy'. You do not go out of your way to threaten or put down an artist unless you want to see their sprites withdrawn.

 

You see, Spriters have punitive powers that they can use which winners lack.

 

Thirdly: You do not often see people offering for Spriter's Alts the way that 2g prizes are desired. Prizes are everpresent on the trade threads (the higher gen ones) and on people's wishlists. Not only do people who are fond of lineages ask for prizes, but people wanting to trade up. The babies of 2g spriters alts trade for almost nothing.

 

This makes them, in people's eyes, a luxury rather than something that you'd deliberately go out to achieve.

 

Compare and contrast with 3g prizes which still net good offers such as CB metals. People value dragons on MORE than just the initial 2g baby, but value them in what a baby will breed them.

 

Not to mention the fact that Spriter's Alts are CB Holidays - they multiclutch and so the 'most valuable' offspring are distributed already. CB Prizes never multiclutch. Spriter's Alts are recolours of existing dragons. CB Prizes have lineart and colouration unique to their CB species. Nobody save for a select few own CB Prizes. Everyone is capable of owning a CB Holiday - in another colouration.

 

Spriter's Alt CBs are limited in exactly the same way as non-winners. 2 per, or in Halloween's case, unlimited. CB Prizes are not limited - people have seen those who have two - outcry of 'unfairness' despite the essential fairness of the raffle.

Thirdly and a half: People believe that if they sprite/practice hard enough, they can get a Spriter's Alt.

 

Fourthly: Winners consist of a very small group whose interests are underrepresented. This makes them the ideal victim. Winners are further subdivided into 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and each have their own differing ideologies. For example, the people from my lot - 2010 - might be weary of their prizes and be less conservative than 2012 or 2013's lot since they have had more time to enjoy and indeed USE their prizes if they so wished. They've also had time to see their successors - new prizewinners - obtain the same dragons that they 'won' so they may no longer see their prizes in the same exclusive light as other prizewinners.

 

Users also know that if they push their point far enough they may convince some winners who are not as conservative as others to support their point.

 

Winners are also subdivided into HM and Prizewinners. HM winners have not had the opportunity to own CB Tinsels/Shimmers and might therefore be less conservative. Whilst they have also been singled out: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=155564 and the other topic about the re-release of CB Alts/Hollies, TJ has already stated that CB Alts are not going to be released in-cave and holiday spriters have stated that they do not want to see CB Holidays rereleased. Therefore, CB prizes are going to be the 'point of saving grace' that people want more of, because other things have already been denied.

 

Fifthly: Thuweds are valuable to some and not valuable to others. They are often common breeds already available in cave. 3g Thuweds have little to no trading power whatsoever. Thuwed CBs belong to TJ and are valued in name, only. (As in, anyone could fake owning a CB thuwed, but it's not on the official list. Also, some of the CBs are available as HMs and others like the commons are catchable already in cave.)

 

Sixthly: Ah, I forgot. Eastern dragons are in short supply, three are tied up a CB prizes unable to be caught. Also, the CB prizes are terribly shiny in ways that the regular CB metals lack.

 

tl;dr prizes of all shape and form are always going to be targetted.

Edited February 7, 2014 by DarkEternity

[diaveborn]

I also have to wonder if, a subset of people (and I'm absolutely not speaking to any individual person's motivation) are making an uproar about prize dragons versus other things because of expectations. Obviously anyone who isn't a spriter knows they aren't a spriter, and the Thuwed list is presented as a *waiting* list. But I bet a lot of people, instead of treating the raffle as something with a remote chance, already start to feel entitled to a prize.

 

Most if not all of the people who I've seen in suggestions threads aren't the entitled ones, and I think so many people are honestly trying to make the DC experience better, for others, not just themselves. But other places there have been so many unconstructive complaints, and not just complaints but entitlement. And I think that just creates this big huge ball of yuck that people are trying to address constructively with suggestion threads and comments.

[DarkEternity]

Since the majority of DC users DO NOT OWN A PRIZE, any suggestion to do with GETTING LOW GENS/CBs MORE EASILY will automatically gain the support of (most) of this section of the playerbase. Humans being humans will always want. People want what they don't have. People who have a thing will want to maintain their standing because OBVIOUSLY they do not want to lose said thing because they are exactly the same as everyone else: only they have the thing.

 

It reminds me of the whole landlords vs the peasants thing, the capitalists vs the pauper thing because it is ALL the SAME: predictable.

 

These prizes should have never been. This situation should have never been. Even if everyone was given a prize egg, people would lament that the prizes are not as rare as they thought it would be and before we know it - we'd be fighting over the CB gold/silver/bronze nature of it.

 

Don't forget how people craved the high gens when they were in low supply and now reject them as rubbish now that they are common. People complained that suddenly prizes were too common.

 

We did this to ourselves - everything, all of it.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I also have to wonder if, a subset of people (and I'm absolutely not speaking to any individual person's motivation) are making an uproar about prize dragons versus other things because of expectations. Obviously anyone who isn't a spriter knows they aren't a spriter, and the Thuwed list is presented as a *waiting* list. But I bet a lot of people, instead of treating the raffle as something with a remote chance, already start to feel entitled to a prize.

 

Most if not all of the people who I've seen in suggestions threads aren't the entitled ones, and I think so many people are honestly trying to make the DC experience better, for others, not just themselves. But other places there have been so many unconstructive complaints, and not just complaints but entitlement. And I think that just creates this big huge ball of yuck that people are trying to address constructively with suggestion threads and comments.

This. It is the "we are all entitled" mentality that is really bothering me about all these threads about the raffle, the prizes, the alternatives and the rest.

[DarkEternity]

The Suggestions forum should be known as the forum where we think we are entitled because it will definitely benefit all (well mostly) of us.

 

I don't mean that generally, I mean that always. Suggestions is motivated by (self)-interest. You're not going to suggest something which is going to take away from you... That's just life...

Edited February 7, 2014 by DarkEternity

[Tish]

I don't think CB/low gen prizes should be treated differently. I'm fine with multi-clutching coming back for everything or a fertility rework (would prefer that actually) but I don't like singling out the CB/low gens.

Edited February 7, 2014 by tishavara

[Amazon_warrior]

I also have to wonder if, a subset of people (and I'm absolutely not speaking to any individual person's motivation) are making an uproar about prize dragons versus other things because of expectations.  Obviously anyone who isn't a spriter knows they aren't a spriter, and the Thuwed list is presented as a *waiting* list.  But I bet a lot of people, instead of treating the raffle as something with a remote chance, already start to feel entitled to a prize.

 

Most if not all of the people who I've seen in suggestions threads aren't the entitled ones, and I think so many people are honestly trying to make the DC experience better, for others, not just themselves.  But other places there have been so many unconstructive complaints, and not just complaints but entitlement.  And I think that just creates this big huge ball of yuck that people are trying to address constructively with suggestion threads and comments.

Yup. It really is all about the entitlement.

 

@DarkEternity: I dunno, I see plenty of trades and signature notes asking for spriter alt babies. Perhaps not quite as many as ones asking for 2G Prizes, but still enough for me to have noticed and I don't spend much time trawling trades. And if people are claiming that it's being able to do lineages that are important, the trade values of 3Gs should be irrelevant, no? Mostly I was trying to highlight the absurdity of forcing one particular subset of players to non-voluntarily share offspring of their dragons. As for the multi-clutching Holidays - yes, if they breed them. I can choose to breed Luckiest Catch with a Holiday in season for a multi-clutch if I want. As it happens, at Christmas, I didn't want.

 

I'm aware of how people view spriter alts and I totally agree that they are well-earned and deserved. And we've had plenty of tastes of what can happen when spriters get annoyed. But I still can't help but feel that if the boot were on the other foot, people might feel differently. Not to mention, "We fear the consequences of targeting one group of people!" does not and never should justify targeting a different group because they don't have the same protection. Even though it happens all the freaking time. It doesn't make it right.

 

While I technically joined while multi-clutches were still possible, the AP was always so backed up that they basically didn't happen (I think I had one multi-clutch of a non-Holiday). And from what I understand, some people *did* mind that certain lineages were spread around without their control even then and because of the AP loop-hole, they could set up willing helpers to grab and return/dispose of "spares" if they liked. People *always* point at Hollies and say "Oh it was never so bad with them!" Really? Original CB Holly owners were (and still are a bit) celebrities and back in 2009 (and also 2010 and 2011, I think), Holidays didn't politely show up in the first line of the AP, they waited in the queue like any other egg and could be snatched by canny use of the "get code" page and F5. (I used *exactly* that method to grab a 2G Valentine in 2011.) They simply weren't even seen on the AP. The only way to get one was to be friends with a Holly owner or stalk the Hollies themselves and try to snipe any eggs. The multi-clutches were stopped before teleport came to be, and I would argue that people who cared enough have always had control over the fate of their dragon's offspring for the most part - the only execption now is Holidays in season. So you really can't say, "Get over it, we had no control before!" because that's not actually true.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[DarkEternity]

I dunno, I see plenty of trades and signature notes asking for spriter alt babies. Perhaps not quite as many as ones asking for 2G Prizes, but still enough for me to have noticed and I don't spend much time trawling trades. And if people are claiming that it's being able to do lineages that are important, the trade values of 3Gs should be irrelevant, no?

 

Trade values are not the core point of this discussion or so people would assume based on the sheer number of difficult to maintain stairstep lineages for which we must account precise lineage details

 

People *always* point at Hollies and say "Oh it was never so bad with them!" Really? Original CB Holly owners were (and still are a bit) celebrities and back in 2009 (and also 2010, I think), Holidays didn't politely show up in the first line of the AP, they waited in the queue like any other egg and could be snatched by canny use of the "get code" page and F5. (I used *exactly* that method to grab a 2G Valentine in 2011.)

Yes, how quickly we forget. And now how times change. Hollies are generally just passed over. But they used to be THE thing. Now people simply have new shiny replacements to occupy the same old interests.

 

To be honest, I'm just tired.

 

Hey, remember the days when people ALWAYS used to ask TJ to make golds and silvers and things more common in the biomes? I miss those days.

Edited February 7, 2014 by DarkEternity

[Amazon_warrior]

Yes, how quickly we forget. And now how times change. Hollies are generally just passed over. But they used to be THE thing. Now people simply have new shiny replacements to occupy the same old interests.

The worst harassment I ever had was over a Holly. And we're not talking a sexy 2G or 3G with a super-pretty lineage. Nope, it looked like this. People wouldn't give you the time of day for that now, but I had to endure a string of increasingly furious and passive-aggressive nastiness over its offspring the first time I bred it.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[diaveborn]

I'm tired too, and gonna use this opportunity to go to bed instead of refreshing the forum over and over like I have been for the last um kind of a while. But to make this on topic, and since I haven't said this yet: In general I think I'd prefer changes to the raffle situation to be done so that they have more of an impact behind the scenes, such as increasing number of prizes given out, rather than more of an impact on the user experience, such as multiclutches where multiclutches didn't exist before. niteniteee

[Sheriziya]

I'd like to add the reasons why the whole "improve the raffle" topic was started in the first place (and why this topic has been started as result of closing the raffle thread):

The raffle

• leaves most of the users only dreaming of getting a prize dragon, their only hope a long gen months, or even a year or more in the future. This seems to be especially true to new/casual players since they have very limited scroll space in comparison to veteran players who are already at their max spaces.

• The ratio of breeding results from prize dragons seems not good (not enough prize dragons are being produced)

• Creating lineages with prize dragons is hard because the lineage creator can't get the dragons s/he wants

• Fear of (shiny) hatchies from multi clutches growing up through the AP and going to the wild instead of ending up on someone's scroll

• Balance between low-gen and high-gen prize dragons for breeders both in obtaining and creating lineages

• Not enough CB Prize dragons to make good lineages

• With general Multiclutching offspring from carefully bred prize dragon lineages might go to the AP while to owner doesn't want this happening.

• CB prize owners want to keep the feeling that they've got something exclusive.

Which is all culminating in a trademarket which has gone insane (or a trademarket where we have no seemingly fair balance anymore), if I may deduce that from the comments. I don't have any experience in the trademarket, so I can't really say anything about it. This leads to the a general feeling amongst a (big?) part of our community:

Although DC was original a fun collectables games, it's become a trading game where it's become hard (as in almost impossible?) to actually collect every dragon you want.

The idea with which we started this topic and the others is not because players feel like they're entitled to have a prize dragon. It's basis can be found, instead, in the feeling that with the trademarket as it currently is and the fact only a handful of players (okay, a bit more than a handful now ) gets a special CB dragon doesn't really give a feeling of fun collectables game anymore. At least for a part of the player base.

 

I'll add this to the first of this topic and the other topics I've started with the suggestions to improve the raffle system.

 

As for the spriter's alts, I feel the same like some other's have already said: Spriters have worked truly hard to create this dragon and I absolutely do NOT mind them having a special version of the dragon, especially since they're all doing it voluntarily and are not allowed to post their work elsewhere, if I'm correct. I consider the spiter's alts as a big thank you from TJ and the community to the artists for creating these amazing dragons. And to be honest, I'm surprised there are only spriters alts for the holiday and prize dragons and not for all other dragons. But maybe that's just me.

 

As for the prize dragon, I'll recap what was already said earlier in the other thread:

Prize winners did nothing any of us didn't do. So, if we're speaking about being "entitled", what gives them the "right" to have such an influence on the market. Yes, I know, there are several prize winners/catcher who gift (very) regularly and I'm not adressing those particular people, but the community in general.

 

Anyway, back on topic: Multi clutching. I joined when there was still multiclutching, I think, back in 2009, although I'm not too sure. I like the multiclutching with holidays. I still like Olympe's idea of multiclutching to improve the whole prize dragon situation. Should it be a BSA? Perhaps. It will give the prize owners who really want to control where their dragons are going, a way to do this and keep breeding (I can see why they'd like a certain amount of control), while it will also give other prize owners a way to donate eggs to other people and the AP more easily.

Why only multiclutch for lower gens? Because there seems to be the biggest problem at the moment. And once the problem for the lower gens have been solved, more possibilities will automatically come up to get more high-gens.

 

Well, those are my two cents

[Naruhina_94]

The more of them there are, the less valuable they are, so that doesn't really work.

 

Personally, I have a 2nd gen, and I'm on lists for several more. So it'd be in my favor--if I was only after personal profit--to keep them rare. Yet I'm here, supporting making low gen Prizes more generally obtainable for everyone.

Many 2nd gens from the same shimmer x dorsal = that lineage has no more value.

 

I don't like that the shimmer owner have no control over their dragons. I'm sorry, but I don't like this suggestion, not in this way.

If I would be one of them I won't breed again, or I would ask to some friend to try to take the spawned eggs that are falled into the AP.

It's not fair for them, that's all

 

Maybe I would accept it if their eggs don't go into the AP, but stay in their scroll, so they can decide what to do with them.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[Amazon_warrior]

Many 2nd gens from the same shimmer x dorsal = that lineage has no more value.

 

I don't like that the shimmer owner have no control over their dragons. I'm sorry, but I don't like this suggestion, not in this way.

If I would be one of them I won't breed again, or I would ask to some friend to try to take the spawned eggs that are falled into the AP.

It's not fair for them, that's all

 

Maybe I would accept it if their eggs don't go into the AP, but stay in their scroll, so they can decide what to do with them.

See, ironically, I'm fine with not controlling every egg in a multi-clutch. I am not fine with multi-clutching being only for CB prizes and/or not being voluntary.

[Fuzzbucket]

Many 2nd gens from the same shimmer x dorsal = that lineage has no more value.

 

I don't like that the shimmer owner have no control over their dragons. I'm sorry, but I don't like this suggestion, not in this way.

If I would be one of them I won't breed again, or I would ask to some friend to try to take the spawned eggs that are falled into the AP.

It's not fair for them, that's all

 

Maybe I would accept it if their eggs don't go into the AP, but stay in their scroll, so they can decide what to do with them.

So what you want is more prizes, more raffles and winners to have the ability to multiclutch, keep all the eggs, and have even more of a stranglehold over trading ? I don't see that as much of an improvement.

[Sheriziya]

Actually, what we are looking for was our original combo suggestion, which included this suggestion as an either/or option in relation to TJ's Fertility rework suggestion.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually, what we are looking for was our original combo suggestion, which included this suggestion as an either/or option in relation to TJ's Fertility rework suggestion.

Multiclutching in the ordinary way (choose one to keep and the rest auto) - is fine with me - preferably as a BSA, to allow for choice. I was responding to the suggestion that the breeder could control all the eggs in a clutch, which I think is definitely NOT OK.

[Sheriziya]

Ah, sorry, then I misunderstood you

[Tawanda001]

the fact that they are still taken from departure threads and you get hatchies for them isn't demand for you? Demand says nothing about price, being "hot" does not factor in at all.

People also take pretty lineages, blacks, stripes, all manner of nice things (and often some not so pretty things), so no I don't really think it's demand so much as it is 'pretty eggs, free/cheap, with no work on my part" Demand is being able to ask for more than just a common hatchie or two and knowing that you'll get it. Somebody brought up 3g thuweds which are a perfect example too, people will happily take them all day long, but only if they are free or going for a song. Just like the high gen prizes, people don't go looking for them in trade threads, nor offer anything of value in order to get one, so no that's not really being in demand.

If people offered me free stuff in RL, I'm no fool, I'd probably take it even if it wasn't something I was really looking for to begin with, but it wouldn't mean those things were ever in demand.

 

As far as "I'd rather see more CB prizes", TJ has already pretty much vetoed that, so that leaves us trying to work with other alternatives, such as multi-clutches, better breeding rates, etc. There isn't going to be a perfect solution that makes everyone happy, I think it will basically come down to picking the lesser of the evils, or simply leaving things as they are.

 

 

[Cinnamin Draconna]

The trouble with it being a BSA is that then we will repeat the fiasco that happened when Teleport was first introduced. Specifically, since it happened right before xmas Holly owners got all upset because they wouldn't be able to control where all their eggs went. So a bunch of them did not breed that year.

 

Same thing applies here, if it's a BSA most Prize owners would probably never use it, because they couldn't control where the eggs went.

 

The only way for a suggestion like this to halfway work is for it to be automatic. And if it was added, some of the Prize owners would stop breeding due to pure selfishness. Some.. not all.. of the Prize owners are the most selfish folk I've ever had the misfortune to have dealings with, so this scenario would not surprise me in the least.

 

Someone said it earlier and I totally agree.. PRIZE DRAGONS SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ADDED. This whole mess is TJ's fault for introducing something that would have such catastrophic concequences to the game.

 

Truthfully, I don't think there is a solution to the Prize problem.

[cyradis4]

Someone said it earlier and I totally agree.. PRIZE DRAGONS SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ADDED. This whole mess is TJ's fault for introducing something that would have such catastrophic concequences to the game.

 

Truthfully, I don't think there is a solution to the Prize problem.

Actually, I don't think its the prize dragon concept that's the problem, its how it was implemented. And how absurdly rare CB Prize dragons are, compared to the userbase. So, implementation, not concept.

 

As for a solution... There is no solution that will make everyone happy, but there should be ways to reduce the problem a lot.

 

Cheers!

C4.