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Sheriziya

ANSWERED:Release of Prize dragons in-cave

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It doesn't matter if the users are happier or not. The retirement of the Frills made many people unhappy but it was done nevertheless. You seem to not recognize the enormous range of rights spriters have over their art, perhaps you should look it up. Sometimes people don't get what they want.

 

Also re on the lineage boxes-unless the "decoration" is just a complete recolor of the lines surrounding the lineage boxes whatever the decoration will be will block some of the dragon sprite. Also color clashes. I doubt people will be happy with that.

It doesn't need to change color, just to be more pretty, like a frame wink.gif

I don't think that it doesn't matter if the users are happier or not o.O This is no sense, for me. A good game is difficult, but still feasible. A good game rewards those who undertake to play and in the end everyone should be happy. Games are for fun, I suppose blink.gif

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It doesn't need to change color, just to be more pretty, like a frame wink.gif

I don't think that it doesn't matter if the users are happier or not o.O This is no sense, for me. A good game is difficult, but still feasible. A good game rewards those who undertake to play and in the end everyone should be happy. Games are for fun, I suppose blink.gif

Look. Say the frame is a reddish brown. One of my silver shimmers is from Jewel and moonstone. Moonstones don't look awesome with reddish brown. I mean there are people who think they do but there are others who think they don't. So users who think that the color scheme is not a good match will be unhappy.

 

You know what will make people happy? If you could turn all your eggs gold. You know what happens when you type that on the url? TJ's message saying"yeah, right". Fact of the matter is, there are FAR better solutions than this one that does not trample spriter's rights and I have no idea why you keep arguing for this and come up with shortsighted "compromises" instead of working to make other methods more feasible.

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Look. Say the frame is a reddish brown. One of my silver shimmers is from Jewel and moonstone. Moonstones don't look awesome with reddish brown. I mean there are people who think they do but there are others who think they don't. So users who think that the color scheme is not a good match will be unhappy.

 

You know what will make people happy? If you could turn all your eggs gold. You know what happens when you type that on the url? TJ's message saying"yeah, right". Fact of the matter is, there are FAR better solutions than this one that does not trample spriter's rights and I have no idea why you keep arguing for this and come up with shortsighted "compromises" instead of working to make other methods more feasible.

I have no idea about why you are attacting me, your tones are almost rude. I' m not offended anyway.

If you compare this suggestion with that funny page I suppose you should read better the OP. Nobody want to make this game easier or stupid, we just don't want too high differences among users and a free breedable system, not ruled by others. smile.gif

I don't think it's so wrong wanting that..

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In my humble opinion, if one of the sprite artists like Mysfytt has said no, we should afford their opinion respect even if we disagree strongly. It means no release of the shimmerscales in-cave: period.

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I am not in support of this.

 

As much as I'd love to have a CB, it means more to me to win one than to just catch one in cave.

 

Also, there's the fact that they'll become the new golds/silvers/coppers, meaning that only a select few will be able to grab 6 or 7 of them and offer them out for ridiculous things like 2nd gen spriter alts and five Neglecteds, while the rest of us click in vain.

 

I haven't caught a CB gold or silver since 2008.

 

2008.

 

The chances of me being able to catch a new prize will be slim to none.

 

So no, this will not change things. Actually, it'll make it even WORSE, because it'll always be the same group of people catching the majority of them. I don't know about anyone else, but I am more resentful to those people than I am to the winners of the prizes. At least THEY won them purely by chance, it's not just who has the best internet.

 

A person with dialup could win a prize.

A newbie who just joined the game can win a prize.

An oldbie who's been here since 2008 can win a prize.

I could win a prize despite my whining. xd.png

Heck, I bet even TJ could win a prize if he doesn't remove himself from the drawing. A Thuwed Shimmer, how about that? xd.png (shots fired)

 

Keep them prizes, and don't release them in-cave. They won't become special anymore if you do that. The spriters, at least one, said no. So.... no.

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Nobody is attacking you. Your idea is not possible because us users do not have any say where artwork is involved. We can only come up with ideas, and hope the corresponding artist agrees. Mysfytt has already been contacted, and she's already said no, so why continue to insist?

 

The make all my eggs gold is a legit url: http://dragcave.net/makeallmyeggsgold btw.

Edited by Xythus

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A person with dialup could win a prize.

A newbie who just joined the game can win a prize.

An oldbie who's been here since 2008 can win a prize.

I could win a prize despite my whining. xd.png

Heck, I bet even TJ could win a prize if he doesn't remove himself from the drawing. A Thuwed Shimmer, how about that? xd.png (shots fired)

Fun Fact, I asked and TJ does not remove himself from the drawing.

 

Also, I very much agree with the sentiment that the raffle is completely fair in distribution, You don't need a fast connection, you don't need to be awake at certain low times, you just need to be on at the holidays and participate in a fun little game. The same might might not be true for 2Gen, but at least our lot is the same for CBs.

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Relasing them could Give you the choice to trade them. Of CBs are too hard to get there would be many more 2nd. Gen. You could event choose the mate! Is so impossible to trade a 2nd gen gold, right now? No, as I can view.

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Relasing them could Give you the choice to trade them. Of CBs are too hard to get there would be many more 2nd. Gen. You could event choose the mate! Is so impossible to trade a 2nd gen gold, right now? No, as I can view.

We do see the merits that you're pointing out, but the bottom line does remain that if the artist says no, than thats it, it cant happen. While I have not spoken to her directly, the tone of Mysfytts PMs make it seem like a hard no from her.

 

Honestly, it seems that the point of all these suggestions is mute if we can't get one that both Mysfytt and Marrionetta agree on. It really feels like any change needs to effect both or none at all.

Edited by rumor33

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Nobody is attacking you. Your idea is not possible because us users do not have any say where artwork is involved. We can only come up with ideas, and hope the corresponding artist agrees. Mysfytt has already been contacted, and she's already said no, so why continue to insist?

 

The make all my eggs gold is a legit url: http://dragcave.net/makeallmyeggsgold btw.

I am not offended by Mysfytt decision, but by ylangylang ' tone. I still hope to find a better solution, even because this would be even More stressfull if this topic will respawn the next year. It will happen if we don't do something.

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I am not offended by Mysfytt decision, but by ylangylang ' tone. I still hope to find a better solution, even because this would be even More stressfull if this topic will respawn the next year. It will happen if we don't do something.

If you have a problem with my tone, report it. Bear in mind that I am tired and frustrated with saying the same thing over and over again to a person who refuses to honor artists' rights.

 

Honestly, it seems that the point of all these suggestions is mute if we can't get one that both Mysfytt and Marrionetta agree on. It really feels like any change needs to effect both or none at all. 

This, basically. Which is why I disagree on a certain other topic as well. If one is allowed but others aren't there will be new threads again and again about how it's unfair you can only get one breed of whatever. I would rather nip that in the bud.

Edited by ylangylang

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I am not offended by Mysfytt decision, but by ylangylang ' tone. I still hope to find a better solution, even because this would be even More stressfull if this topic will respawn the next year. It will happen if we don't do something.

You are "not offended" by it, but you continue in effect to demand that TJ goes against Mysfytt's wishes, expressed eloquently in this thread.

 

Mysfytt and Marri have the right to say no to this. They have both said no. So this idea is dead in the water, whatever you WISH to happen. Your continued suggestions for their wishes to be subverted is unhelpful at the very least. When one person says an absolute no, there is no space for what you call compromise.

 

This whole suggestion is in effect about changing the terms of a contract. You can't do that unless all parties to the contract agree. And they don't. So the contract cannot be changed. The two spriters created dragons to be used as prizes and only as prizes; they did not at any time agree to their release in cave, and they don't agree now, they have explicitly said that they don't agree, when asked. So that's it.

 

Is that clear enough ?

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If you have a problem with my tone, report it. Bear in mind that I am tired and frustrated with saying the same thing over and over again to a person who refuses to honor artists' rights.

 

 

This, basically. Which is why I disagree on a certain other topic as well. If one is allowed but others aren't there will be new threads again and again about how it's unfair you can only get one breed of whatever. I would rather nip that in the bud.

I am touched by the fervor with which you campaign for our rights; however, we can speak for ourselves when we feel threatened. No need to get upset just yet. Thank you, friend.

 

I'm not comfortable with this suggestion, but I'm not sure I get to dictate how my art is used on site. I give permission for it to be used, however the details have never really been up to me. Maybe there is a compromise that would make me more comfortable, but I really must remind everyone that in the end it is up to T.J., not Mysfytt or me.

Edited by Marrionetta

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I've now spoken (through PM's) with both Mysyfytt and Marrionetta. Marionetta's answer is:

Hey, sorry I missed responding to this PM! I'm fairly uncomfortable with this idea. I'm sorry. That would be a slap in the face to all past winners and the folks that have worked hard to collect lineages from the winners' CB dragons. >: But I'm not sure it matters what I think? However if I'm correct, both Mysfytt and I aren't in favor of this suggestion, so perhaps the both of our opinions count for something together?

 

Thank you for taking the time to contact me!

 

Like I said in my earlier post, there are two points that seem to be the main issues with this suggestion:

1. The trading value

2. The sentimental value

 

From how I read both Mysfytt's (posted in the above link) and Marionetta's statements these are their main concerns (and reasons to say no to the suggestion as it is now), but escpecially the 2nd one.

 

I'd like to make one point clear, at least from my point of view:

With the suggestion from this topic we're not trying to go against the wishes from the artists (in this case Mysfytt and Marionetta). We're trying to find a solution that will be satisfying for the majority of the userbase as well as the artists. Not only now but also in the future!

 

Now, as for the trading market, I guess that's also partly up to TJ. I can imagine, but I don't KNOW how TJ decides on similar things, that if he thinks this suggestion (or a similar) would benefit the trading market, he could discuss this with the artists (in the case of the Shimmers and Tinsels, again, Mysfytt and Marionetta) their view on the trading market as it is now and how he'd like to see it and how it could be improved while still respecting their wishes (as in currently: the status/sentimental value of the prize dragons for the winners).

IF TJ thinks the trading market as it currently is (with the enormous prices for the prizes), is not a problem but instead a supply/demand situation he thinks is good, I think one of the main reasons (a big one I might add) of this topic (AND the "improve the raffle"-thread) is shot down and this topic can cease to exist.

 

If, however, TJ thinks the market should be more balanced, I think we owe it to him AND to the artists to try to find a solution in which the majority of the userbase can find satisfaction AND which respects the artists wishes.

 

Well, that's at least the way I see and feel it.

 

ETA: partly ninja.gif -ed by Marrionetta. Thanks, Marrionetta, for posting here! smile.gif

Edited by Sheriziya

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See, it really is in no way TJs decision at this point, according to the dragons pages the artist retain copyright on the sprites. If they don't want something to happen then TJ can't do anything about it.

This, is utterly wrong.

 

While TJ is a nice guy, that gives artists much control over what happens on DC, he is in no way forced to use the sprites he acquires from the spriters as they want it. Once they have signed the artists agreement, he has usage rights as he wishes. What they retain is copyright, read: the ability to change it, and it is officially "theirs", which is shown in credits.

 

 

But: no Copyright Law ever retained your usage rights, if you have sold them/handed them over, and that's basically whats happening.

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While TJ is a nice guy, that gives artists much control over what happens on DC, he is in no way forced to use the sprites he acquires from the spriters as they want it. Once they have signed the artists agreement, he has usage rights as he wishes. What they retain is copyright, read: the ability to change it, and it is officially "theirs", which is shown in credits.

 

 

But: no Copyright Law ever retained your usage rights, if you have sold them/handed them over, and that's basically whats happening.

This exactly.

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This, is utterly wrong.

 

While TJ is a nice guy, that gives artists much control over what happens on DC, he is in no way forced to use the sprites he acquires from the spriters as they want it. Once they have signed the artists agreement, he has usage rights as he wishes. What they retain is copyright, read: the ability to change it, and it is officially "theirs", which is shown in credits.

 

 

But: no Copyright Law ever retained your usage rights, if you have sold them/handed them over, and that's basically whats happening.

You're right. Theoratically.

 

In practice, the artists' ability to pull their arts from the site and/or retire a breed, as demonstrated by the Frills and Dovealove's close-call mass-art-pulling, acts as a hardened foundation of spriters' ultimate power regarding how their sprites are treated in the game.

 

To enforce an idea that a spriter has a concrete NO on it *, TJ either needs to somehow gain the spriters' approval, or risk having the sprites pulled and having to find someone do a set of replacement sprites.

 

* I'm not specifically referring to any case, please don't tell me how the spriters haven't said

on this suggestion. Edited by CNR4806

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Both of those examples are pre-contract. Also Mysfytt and I are both pretty nice people. There's no threat of pulling looming over these suggestions at all, so breathe easy, friends.

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I am touched by the fervor with which you campaign for our rights; however, we can speak for ourselves when we feel threatened. No need to get upset just yet. Thank you, friend.

 

I'm not comfortable with this suggestion, but I'm not sure I get to dictate how my art is used on site. I give permission for it to be used, however the details have never really been up to me. Maybe there is a compromise that would make me more comfortable, but I really must remind everyone that in the end it is up to T.J., not Mysfytt or me.

Thankyou Marrionetta. If you feel bad for my words I apologize and please send me a PM: I never meant to do that as someone else is suggesting. I understand your (and Mysfytt) reticence about relasing them and I don't want (neither I could xd.png) forcing you, I am the first who don't want to see you or other artists leave the cave (I love you both as spriters).

I just hope to find a compromise to make even the artists more comfortable, as you said. Thanks for your understanding.

 

Would you like to give something special to the original ones, so they could be really distinguishable from the relased ones withouth change their color? Which of the OP suggestions would you prefer most? (name recoloring, different frame in lineage, adding status, adding a nice BSA)? Do you have some idea from yourself? Please share it with us! smile.gif

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Thank you, both Whitebaron and Marrionetta, for those statements smile.gif

 

I noticed in my previous post I split up the problem, but only said something about the trading value problem and nothing about the sentimental value problem.

 

TJ either needs to somehow gain the spriters' approval
Which is part of what we'd like to do as well: Find a solution that satisfies the majority of the userbase as well as respects the artists wishes!

 

For those ;tl;dr, I'll make a quick recap of a few things.

We don't disrespect the artists. We're simply looking for a solution that will satisfy the majority of the userpopulation and at the same time respect the wishes of the artists

 

What's the base of this thread (and the "improve the raffle thread")?Trading Value related

leaves most of the users only dreaming of getting a prize dragon, their only hope a long gen months, or even a year or more in the future. This seems to be especially true to new/casual players since they have very limited scroll space in comparison to veteran players who are already at their max spaces.

 

Breeding related

Creating lineages with prize dragons is hard because the lineage creator can't get the dragons s/he wants

Balance between low-gen and high-gen prize dragons for breeders both in obtaining and creating lineages

 

Prize pool related

Not enough CB Prize dragons to make good lineages

 

Sentimental value related

CB prize owners want to keep the feeling that they've got something exclusive.

 

non-forum scroll owners

Players who do have a scroll, but don't visit/use the forum or who are too shy/insecure/whatever to trade hardly have a chance at a (low-gen) prize dragon.

 

Which is all culminating in a trademarket which has gone insane (or a trademarket where we have no seemingly fair balance anymore), if I may deduce that from the comments in several topics. I don't have any experience in the trademarket, so I can't really say anything about it. This leads to the a general feeling amongst a (big?) part of our community:

Although DC was original a fun collectables games, it's become a trading game where it's become hard to actually collect every dragon you want.

 

As for the Sentimental value, a few suggestions have been done to have the prize dragons released in the cave in some manner and been shot down as well for various reasons both in this thread and in the "improve the raffle" thread. Just to name a few:

- Change the sprite a little bit (like remove the wreath from the tinsels)

- Change the color of the name of the dragon, so that's it's obvious this particular dragon is a dragon from the prize pool and not from the cave

- Give the prize dragon (as in: from the raffle) a frame. That too will make it obvious the dragon is from the raffle instead of the cave

- Give the raffle prizes a special BSA which the CB prizes wouldn't have

- An added description to the raffle prize dragons which will make it clear it came from a raffle

-Any suggestion I missed?

So.... We're coming up with lots of idea to give more to the dragon to emphasize the sentimental value, but it's all being shot down.

 

I've been looking through other topics we've opened relating to this subject as well and there are a few things I have to get off my chest:

1. I'm surprised to see people are pretty enthusiastic to see more prize breeds in the raffle, but are so deadset against this suggestion (which in fact would be very good to release more prize breeds!).

2. I'm surprised people want to see a higher CB prize pool, but are deadset against this suggestion which in fact would give a higher CB prize pool

3. Coal version of the Shimmer is something loads of people would love to see (including for lineage purposes), but not a smaller change to the prize sprite to release it in the cave. Mind you, breeders said no to that!

Don't get me wrong when I say the following:

I don't feel the surprise mentioned above as a good surprise. Mind you, the above suggestions were part of the combo suggestion (and I still support the suggestions), but it's exactly because they were interlinked and it feels contradictive that a suggestion that would make the above three suggestion better possible is being shot down, while lots of people seem to want the above three suggestions.

Or is this my incorrect interpretation ofd those other topics and what's being said in this topic?

 

So.... We want improvements, but if we suggest improvements they're being shot down in this thread, but wanted in the other threads? I don't understand it anymore.

 

Or is there truly an underlying problem?:

This particular suggestion might effect the trading market (as in the price for 2nd gens and such might go down) somehow more than the other suggestions and everything that might be suggested in this particular topic is being compared to that and thus being shot down cause the price on the trading market should stay high?

Is that truly the underlying problem? And thus this suggestion might as well be closed since we'll never find a solution to satisfy those people who WANT those high prices?

 

Or am I being too negative now?

 

Sorry for the rant, but I honestly don't know what to feel and think anymore.

Edited by Sheriziya

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/sigh.

 

When you make a request and a number of ideas, yes, some will be shot down. That's how it works. You can't expect everyone to accept everything. Now here's a complete list of why your ideas as it stands at the moment won't work.

 

- Change the sprite a little bit (like remove the wreath from the tinsels)

- Change the color of the name of the dragon, so that's it's obvious this particular dragon is a dragon from the prize pool and not from the cave

-Need artists' permission

- Give the prize dragon (as in: from the raffle) a frame. That too will make it obvious the dragon is from the raffle instead of the cave

-Color clash, also some people may not even like having a frame. For example this is my bronze tinsel. It's unique in my opinion for its arrowhead lineage and I like it a lot. Now here's a very, very simple drawing of the lineage with the frame. Of course it may not look like this but.

~Removed for censor evasion; please censor out that dragon's code~

See how the color works okay with the vine but not the hellfire. Or vice versa. Or other people may think it works fine in both cases. Other people may think it's horrible either way.

Unless you're suggesting some technicolor frame, this can result in a lot of angry people because lineages, at its core, is about how pretty it looks to the beholder. So the color, not only the form, is also what's important. As such, currently, this linage (imo) has been ruined for me by the addition of a frame.

- Give the raffle prizes a special BSA which the CB prizes wouldn't have

-Rare breeds cannot have BSAs

- An added description to the raffle prize dragons which will make it clear it came from a raffle

-And...this adds what value, exactly? Nothing. There's a BSA by Green dragons, and if you get a hatchling from it it gets the added line "this hatchling was forced out of its shell prematurely". I've yet to see large amounts of people who offer more for hatchlings who had this line compared to ones that didn't.

 

Now, as for the rebuttal

1. I'm surprised to see people are pretty enthusiastic to see more prize breeds in the raffle, but are so deadset against this suggestion (which in fact would be very good to release more prize breeds!).

2. I'm surprised people want to see a higher CB prize pool, but are deadset against this suggestion which in fact would give a higher CB prize pool

-Because people want to keep the form of the raffle. They want the system of raffles to continue existing. By making them CB you're essentially taking that away. That's going to make people angry.

Also what makes the raffle special for a lot of people is the fact that it's a random selection, which gives some measure of fairness to everyone, unlike by releasing it as a rare. There ARE people on this site who haven't caught any CB gold or silver. Keep that in mind.

3. Coal version of the Shimmer is something loads of people would love to see (including for lineage purposes), but not a smaller change to the prize sprite to release it in the cave. Mind you, breeders said no to that!

-That's because 1. I haven't seen you ask for spriters' permission and 2. because it doesn't matter, that's (from my sprite-collecting viewpoint) another set of breeds to get, because no matter how infinitesimal the difference is, it's still there.

 

So.... We want improvements, but if we suggest improvements they're being shot down in this thread, but wanted in the other threads? I don't understand it anymore.

-This to me feels like you aren't even reading the rebuttals people have seen. Also unlike the other threads this challenges the concept of the raffle itself, which is making people a lot less receptive.

 

Sorry for the rant, I'm tired of feeling like I'm talking to a brick wall.

 

ETA: with the frame suggestion above, another factor to consider is the fact that you /can/ cover parts of the sprite with the frame being proposed. Which again won't make people happy.

Again, I'm pretty sure that it'll be better than this but

~Removed for censor evasion; please censor out that dragon's code~

See how the frames cover the hellfire and vine sprites respectively? Yeah.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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To enforce an idea that a spriter has a concrete NO on it *, TJ either needs to somehow gain the spriters' approval, or risk having the sprites pulled and having to find someone do a set of replacement sprites.

 

TJ is not stupid. smile.gif Nowadays, any spriter that sprites for the cave and wants to get released needs to sign a release form, which basically covers this part - TJ gets unlimited usage rights, so you can not just say: "pull!" and he'd have to jump or fear a c&d.

 

Yes, Spriters do have power. But not as much as people think. (Same applies for the artists permission thread - many things covered there are not at all covered by copyright, and give false impressions whats legally allowed and what not. It's still good form, to accept wishes, as long as they are reasonable. biggrin.gif )

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This is my idea of frame:

user posted image

No need bad colors.

 

That's because 1. I haven't seen you ask for spriters' permission

maybe you should read the OP before reply.

 

Rare breeds cannot have BSAs

I'm suggesting a simple BSA, as Splash.

This one could let you earn a badge, not influenced the game so much. This one could be used only by original shimmers and their offsprings.

Give you a Shyne Trophie <3

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No need bad colors.

In my opinion that looks horribly bad with the sprite you've just chosen, i.e a sunsong, and it also reminds me of funeral cards.

 

maybe you should read the OP before reply.

I actually did. There's nothing about Sheriziya asking the sprites if they can modify their sprite, so if you've found it, please do tell me because I can't.

 

I'm suggesting a simple BSA, as Splash.

This one could let you earn a badge, not influenced the game so much. This one could be used only by original shimmers and their offsprings.

Give you a Shyne Trophie <3

So we're apparently against the "privilege" that raffle winners have but we're giving them more privileges by giving them a badge that the majority of DC can't have?

Ok w/e

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In my opinion that looks horribly bad with the sprite you've just chosen, i.e a sunsong, and it also reminds me of funeral cards.

 

 

I actually did. There's nothing about Sheriziya asking the sprites if they can modify their sprite, so if you've found it, please do tell me because I can't.

 

 

So we're apparently against the "privilege" that raffle winners have but we're giving them more privileges by giving them a badge that the majority of DC can't have?

Ok w/e

I've said that even their offspring could od this BSA. If we can have their offsrpings we could have the trophie. In this way the offspring of the original prizes would still be required.

 

from sherizyia:

* Mysfytt has already stated she'd recolor the Shimmers if TJ would like to implement this. proof

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