ANSWERED:Release of Prize dragons in-cave

[Draco Knight]

If the prizes stay the same - tins and shimmers for ever) the pool will grow. Not fast, but it will. Better that than - as someone has said - this kind of thread showing up after every raffle.

I don't mean a slowly growing number of CB prizes, I mean a larger number of winners for the raffle.

 

The Raffle has remained largely unchanged every year after the first one, with a few tweaks here and there, and every year for the first few months after the Raffle, Suggestions is haunted by Raffle improvement discussion. I don't see that changing unless something gives, as the drama and its duration seems never to improve.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Draco Knight

[Amazon_warrior]

If the prizes stay the same - tins and shimmers for ever) the pool will grow. Not fast, but it will. Better that than - as someone has said - this kind of thread showing up after every raffle.

Ayup. The thing that people don't seem to have realised is that the prize dragons are jam tomorrow. What's that? Well, you give someone jam today, they'll eat it and then they'll ask for more jam or move onto someone else who has jam. Give them the promise of jam - jam tomorrow - and they'll stick around waiting for it. Replace "jam" with "CB or low-gen Prize dragon" and you have exactly the situation we have now. *shrug*

Edited February 9, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[lilacamy931]

Agree with Tawanda001

 

That would be my thoughts on this too. Many players now can not get cb metallics let alone tinsels off the AP and they have been around far longer than prizes. Holidays are a good example also, whilst they are different in a sense there is more concentration in one week due to uplifts, look at the amount of players that can not catch any eggs let alone nice ones (*coughs*hollies*coughs*)

 

Whilst I would love an opportunity for more chances, I don't see this benefiting all. Yes there is an argument of everyone has an equal chance then as it is in the AP and not down to who you contact or know. But in reality it will only be the fastest that could catch them and likelihood them tracking those eggs as they come up to the AP page anyways.

[Fuzzbucket]

Ayup. The thing that people don't seem to have realised is that the prize dragons are jam tomorrow. What's that? Well, you give someone jam today, they'll eat it and then they'll ask for more jam or move onto someone else who has jam. Give them the promise of jam - jam tomorrow - and they'll stick around waiting for it. Replace "jam" with "CB or low-gen Prize dragon" and you have exactly the situation we have now. *shrug*

Even so - adding NEW prize dragons will exacerbate the situation. If they stay the same, at least the pool of the same kind of dragon will grow, rather than a new small pool of a different one every year or two. TJ has said the proportion of prizes to entries is fair - and I think we have to take his word for that. The issue isn't really so much the number of prizes, it is the number of people what want to have them - for trading or whatever purposes. That's sad for them - but prizes aren't meant to be for everyone - that's what living with prizes is all about.

[cyradis4]

I could live with it if the same 6 prize sprites were used for every raffle and no other changes were made. I wouldn't be happy, but in time it might ease the problem of 2nd gens. Coupled with a Participation prize and possibly better breeding on the CBs, then I think the problem would ease a lot.

 

Add in a whole new Prize breed, and all of the sudden the problem gets exponentially worst.

 

So.... No new prize breeds, and this suggestion isn't necessary. New prize breeds.... And we're in a lot of trouble, with or without this.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 9, 2014 by cyradis4

[Amazon_warrior]

Even so - adding NEW prize dragons will exacerbate the situation. If they stay the same, at least the pool of the same kind of dragon will grow, rather than a new small pool of a different one every year or two. TJ has said the proportion of prizes to entries is fair - and I think we have to take his word for that. The issue isn't really so much the number of prizes, it is the number of people what want to have them - for trading or whatever purposes. That's sad for them - but prizes aren't meant to be for everyone - that's what living with prizes is all about.

*pokes first word of own previous post* I think you missed where I agreed with you, hun!

[Naruhina_94]

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I think that relase something in cave should depends only by TJ's choice.

Relase Cb prizes would change the game, not the sprite itself. If there are background reasons about why they cannot go in Biomes I think that the Concepter should explain why, that's all.

Spriters are fundamental for the game and we are all grateful to them, but they are doing spriters to DC, and this suggestion would not change this. They would be for DC, too.

 

Frilled were a different situation. I see their withdrawal as a "punishment" for those who were rude with spriter's work.

 

Not to be a debbie downer, but I fail to see how putting a prize in cave, as a nearly impossible to catch rare (see complaints from players who go years without catching metals), many years after they have been awarded as prizes, does a whole lot to improve bad feelings over the raffle situation? Or helps in any way with the trade market problems created by newly minted prizes?

Not to say that it's not worth discussing on it's own as a suggestion, just because people would eventually like to see them in cave, but I think it's too far removed from the raffle itself to be considered an improvement to the event. My 2 cents worth.

 

Putting them in cave would give you a chance to get or trade them (instead of nothing). Maybe it's small, but not impossible. There would be more 2nd gens, too! And that's really important, because if I ask for a 2nd gen gold right now I could give a reasonable amount of eggs (4 cb reds, for example) to have it. Would happen the same with relased prize in cave. However 2nd gens of original Prizes would still be more valued, as OP said.

This would help a lot!

 

So I would suggest instead a petition to TJ to keep the same 6 sprites as the only prizes: ie, no new prize sprites. So the CBs get spread even further and don't do a Dodo bird on us, like the Hollies almost did.

 

If there are different sprite there would be a new dragon, they would never be the same. I don't see the difference between this and a new normal relase

How this could be helpfull in lineages?

Edited February 9, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[Tawanda001]

Naruhina I know you are excited about this prize idea, but imagine this conversation-

 

"Hey there DC player, so you didn't win a prize and you're disappointed? You know you can't catch metals and other rares so you can't trade for low gens either? Well don't be bitter, just wait and in another 10 years maybe you'll be lucky enough to finally have caught a pair of your own to breed! So don't you feel better now about not winning?"

 

And I'm using 10 years because the suggestion is 4 years as a prize, three more years retired before hitting the cave, and another 3 years because that's how long it took for me to catch my first gold, 5 years before I caught my second.

Something that might happen 10 years from now, maybe, isn't going to make me feel better about the problems we experience now, it just isn't. It's too far away to make a practical difference.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Tawanda001

[CNR4806]

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I think that relase something in cave should depends only by TJ's choice.

Relase Cb prizes would change the game, not the sprite itself. If there are background reasons about why they cannot go in Biomes I think that the Concepter should explain why, that's all.

Spriters are fundamental for the game and we are all grateful to them, but they are doing spriters to DC, and this suggestion would not change this. They would be for DC, too.

 

Frilled were a different situation. I see their withdrawal as a "punishment" for those who were rude with spriter's work.

... Because forcibly releasing them to the cave while their spriter has clearly said NO isn't rude, right?

[Fuzzbucket]

*pokes first word of own previous post* I think you missed where I agreed with you, hun!

No, not quite... there was a faint possibility you still rather liked the idea but yes, fair point !

 

@ Naruhina_94 - the point is that there would never be a NEW one; the prizes would always be tins or shimmers, which would stay as prizes, NOT as general releases. There would in the end be more and more of them and more 2nd gens. The background reason for them not being released in cave would presumably be that they were intended / created as prizes, not as a general release.

 

And if the wishes of spriters were to be routinely overruled - as implementing this suggestion would do - as someone said - they can always withdraw their dragons, and we'd have another frill situation. Or they would simply not be willing to sprite new prizes at all.

[Amazon_warrior]

No, not quite... there was a faint possibility you still rather liked the idea but yes, fair point !

I'm not a fan - I don't think it'll help at all, just shift the "I can't trade for X!" to a different set of breeds. Human nature never changes...

 

(Also, I can't be bothered to check, but I suspect that many of the people supporting this can catch metals and probably CB metals, but aren't factoring in the people who simply can't for whatever reason. I don't see how this suggestion helps those poor people at all.)

Edited February 9, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm not a fan - I don't think it'll help at all, just shift the "I can't trade for X!" to a different set of breeds. Human nature never changes...

 

(Also, I can't be bothered to check, but I suspect that many of the people supporting this can catch metals and probably CB metals, but aren't factoring in the people who simply can't for whatever reason. I don't see how this suggestion helps those poor people at all.)

OK - we are 100% in agreement then.

[Sheriziya]

And I'm using 10 years because the suggestion is 4 years as a prize, three more years retired before hitting the cave, and another 3 years because that's how long it took for me to catch my first gold, 5 years before I caught my second.

I assume you're only talking about the Shimmers & Tinsels for the 7 years period, since they have been in the raffles for several years already.

Otherwise, if we look at the long term what this solution is aiming at, we're talking about 4 years in the raffles (2 years as 1-2-3 prizes and 2 years as HM) before they would be released in the cave (eventwise or otherwise).

And this solution is aimed at the longterm, with the possibility in mind that there might come more prize breeds than only Shimmers & Tinsels.

As for the catching, I agree it can be hard, but like others have already said, it can be comforting to know that you'll have a better chance to get one in the cave than from the raffle. I know, that's not the case for everyone, but still......

 

As for Mysfytts "No", yes an artist has the right to withdraw their sprite. We've seen that happen already with the frills and the bright pinks. I've asked Mysfytt if the "no" is solely based on the expectation that the value of the prizes will go down on the market or if there are other reasons for the "no". Just to get some clearity.

 

After all, the whole "Prizes on the trademarket are too costly" is exactly one of the reasons why the whole "Improve the raffle thread" was started in the first place......

 

I'm not a fan - I don't think it'll help at all, just shift the "I can't trade for X!" to a different set of breeds.  Human nature never changes...

 

(Also, I can't be bothered to check, but I suspect that many of the people supporting this can catch metals and probably CB metals, but aren't factoring in the people who simply can't for whatever reason.  I don't see how this suggestion helps those poor people at all.)

Actually I am in favor of this solution (which is quite obvious seen I posted this ) and I have yet to catch my first metal myself. I've been generously gifted all prizes and metals I currently have, for which I'm very grateful. Edited February 9, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Fuzzbucket]

As for Mysfytts "No", yes an artist has the right to withdraw their sprite. We've seen that happen already with the frills and the bright pinks. I've asked Mysfytt if the "no" is solely based on the expectation that the value of the prizes will go down on the market or if there are other reasons for the "no". Just to get some clearity.

Didn't mysfytt say that to release in cave would make them less special ?

 

I would like to keep the 'prizes' as just that - given out as prizes. If the coal color participation prize idea is implemented there would be no reason to mass release metallic prizes. I think this would devalue the metallics - not just in the trade value, but also in the eyes of the prize owners, because now their special won dragon is available for EVERYONE to have one - where is the special in that?

 

Is that not enough of a reason ?

[626lavaheart]

I apoloquize for not reading the entire thread in advance but I'm not good at sitting down and reading entire threads that are this long. this has probably been stated before, but I feel like I'd be ok with CB prizes dropping if they were exceeding and extremely rare

 

like... 1 prize dragon a week rare. I also would like this more if their description was changed to be similar to a common dragon. like speckle throat.

 

this would give it a more "finding a shiny in pokemon" type of feel and the prize population wouldn't increase too rapidly.

 

although I feel like mysftt's no means a lot. and won't push my idea.

Edited February 9, 2014 by 626lavaheart

[Qualeo]

Well, a no is a no. You can't argue "TJ can do this..."etc. when he didn't do the sprite itself. He may own the site, but he didn't make the sprite and the artist is the one who can say whether or not its released in cave or not. I think thats a no for the other prizes too, since only releasing one would kinda be unfair.

[Sheriziya]

With a lot of thanks for Mysfytt's patience I got more clearity on the "no". It's a "no" based on both the trading value and the sentimental value:

Like I said, trade value would drop - which for some may be a good thing because 2nd gen shinies would be available to all and they are being asked for some over the top prices at the moment...but then you don't have to pay it and they will rise or drop due to public demand or boycott on its own without changing the release rate of CBs. People pay the high price asked so the prices remain high. Basic economics.

 

But the sentimental value of the thing would also drop, meaning if everyone can have one, why do I want one? Plus they were a special prize awarded to people, if that is taken away from them and it is now 'just another rare dragon' then it isn't a 'prize' dragon any more and loses its status. This status loss I think is the thing I do not want to see. It would be like suddenly deciding that GoNs should be a mass cave release once a year or something so everyone can have a CB, no it is a rare dragon that you need to work hard to get and it should stay that way. So too the 'prize' dragons.

~Mysfytt

 

Of course the trading value is exactly one of the reasons why the whole "improve the raffle" thread started in the first place (the high prices on the market).

The sentimental value.... Well, it's been addresses in many occassions and with as many different answers..... I guess that's exactly the ONE thing it's hard to find a solution for.

I can understand Mysfytt's (and other's) reasoning for it. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it, but I do understand (at least part of) it.

 

Well..... I have to be honest and say that I expect we'll never reach a conclusion that everyone can agree on, besides the "we agree to disagree" conclusion.

 

I don't know how TJ will decide on this. Who knows, maybe he thinks the trading market should be "more balanced" as well, like many others here think. The way I see it at least part of the userbase (the active forum users who'd responded to this, and the other, suggestion) is pretty divided on the point of the trademarket:

1. It's a good thing the prices are high. It's simple supply and demand and it's normal and there's no need to change that.

2. The prices currently are way too high and releasing prize dragon in-cave (with Tinsels and Shimmers after about 7 years) could mean new blood and new possibilities which could mean the prices on the market may go down to a more balanced level.

I'm guessing it's this split in the first place that keeps us from reaching a suggestion the majority of the responders can agree upon.

 

Perhaps TJ can find a way to still keep the original prizes special without the sentimental value going down. This is, after all, also still a great worry for several players (winners and non-winners alike). I have seen suggestions like a colorcode for the name of the dragon (like Naruhina gave earlier) or a small change to the dragon sprite itself (like removing the wreath or something like that) and then releasing the prize dragons into the cave, but those suggestions were shot down for various reasons.

 

In the end I have no idea what could be a solution to satisfy everyone (or at least the majority of everyone who's responded so far, including the artists).

 

Or maybe this is eventually the reason for TJ not to implement (a version of) this suggestion.

 

If anyone else has a solution which has not been mentioned yet and which would solve everyone's worries, like mentioned above, please post it here!

Edited February 10, 2014 by Sheriziya

[rumor33]

I don't know how TJ will decide on this.

See, it really is in no way TJs decision at this point, according to the dragons pages the artist retain copyright on the sprites. If they don't want something to happen then TJ can't do anything about it. I can't imagine TJ is in any hurry to put pressure on an artist, no one wants a repeat of the Dovealove situation. The only way is really is to find a solution that BOTH prize artists are okay with.

[Naruhina_94]

With a lot of thanks for Mysfytt's patience I got more clearity on the "no". It's a "no" based on both the trading value and the sentimental value:

 

 

Of course the trading value is exactly one of the reasons why the whole "improve the raffle" thread started in the first place (the high prices on the market).

The sentimental value.... Well, it's been addresses in many occassions and with as many different answers..... I guess that's exactly the ONE thing it's hard to find a solution for.

I can understand Mysfytt's (and other's) reasoning for it. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it, but I do understand (at least part of) it.

 

Well..... I have to be honest and say that I expect we'll never reach a conclusion that everyone can agree on, besides the "we agree to disagree" conclusion.

 

I don't know how TJ will decide on this. Who knows, maybe he thinks the trading market should be "more balanced" as well, like many others here think. The way I see it at least part of the userbase (the active forum users who'd responded to this, and the other, suggestion) is pretty divided on the point of the trademarket:

1. It's a good thing the prices are high. It's simple supply and demand and it's normal and there's no need to change that.

2. The prices currently are way too high and releasing prize dragon in-cave (with Tinsels and Shimmers after about 7 years) could mean new blood and new possibilities which could mean the prices on the market may go down to a more balanced level.

I'm guessing it's this split in the first place that keeps us from reaching a suggestion the majority of the responders can agree upon.

 

Perhaps TJ can find a way to still keep the original prizes special without the sentimental value going down. This is, after all, also still a great worry for several players (winners and non-winners alike). I have seen suggestions like a colorcode for the name of the dragon (like Naruhina gave earlier) or a small change to the dragon sprite itself (like removing the wreath or something like that) and then releasing the prize dragons into the cave, but those suggestions were shot down for various reasons.

 

In the end I have no idea what could be a solution to satisfy everyone (or at least the majority of everyone who's responded so far, including the artists).

 

Or maybe this is eventually the reason for TJ not to implement (a version of) this suggestion.

 

If anyone else has a solution which has not been mentioned yet and which would solve everyone's worries, like mentioned above, please post it here!

There is no way to add something more special to the original ones? Something like a BSA or a status that could be view in lineage or in the description?

A compromise is the better way, as always. How many people are active users, right now? More than 1000, I suppose.

I still think that this is a good suggestion, since it doesn't take away nothing from those who don't like/care about lineages, just makes others happy.

I would support to make original prizes more distinguishable, althought.

 

EDIT:

Maybe TJ has not to give us an answer, he could say "I will think about it, don't worry anymore" and the in cave relase would remain in doubt, not excluded, but neither admitted.

In this way the price of actual prize offsprings wouldn't decrease not even a modicum, but we could have a big surprise in next years coming.

TJ could also think about another way to resolve the situation and never relase them (as long as this could really help to get a 2nd gen shimmer as if it would be a 2nd gen gold), since he would be neutral on this.

It's just a think, I can see the negative points of this "?" situation by myself.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[rumor33]

Something like a BSA or a status that could be view in lineage or in the description?

TJ is on record that he never intends to give a BSA to a rare dragon, so I'm guessing that out . As for the other bit, I wouldn't think that a status would be enough to retain the sentimental value.

[Naruhina_94]

TJ is on record that he never intends to give a BSA to a rare dragon, so I'm guessing that out . As for the other bit, I wouldn't think that a status would be enough to retain the sentimental value.

mhh... somehting like a decorative frame for original prizes? If you see them in lineage their box could have decorative borders. Since the problem is in the lineage, because that there would be many CB prizes relased that could do many 2nd gen I think that maybe we should change something in their displayed lineage withouth change the sprite.

[Rosedamai]

A compromise is the better way, as always

 

See the problem here is that you are looking for a compromise when logically there cannot be one any more. Why do you keep disregarding spriters' wishes and keep on trying to change their mind when they've obviously said no? I find it mindboggling tbh.

[lightningsky]

out of all the prize dragon suggestions, this one is probably the one that i'm the least supportive of. mostly because these are 'prize' dragons, which should be, in my opinion, given out as prizes. not ever in the cave as a catchable dragon...that doesn't make much sense.

plus, honestly if i had won a CB prize myself and i found out that in however many years they'd be available in-cave, i'd switch to a HM and get something more unique. since if they'd be in cave, no matter how rare, it just takes away from how special they are. (which i know is what people are trying to fix, but the problem kind of lies more with the trade value of 2Gs more than the CB prizes themselves.)

 

edited for errors

Edited February 10, 2014 by lightningsky

[Naruhina_94]

See the problem here is that you are looking for a compromise when logically there cannot be one any more. Why do you keep disregarding spriters' wishes and keep on trying to change their mind when they've obviously said no? I find it mindboggling tbh.

Because leaving the current situation wouldn't be more positive for the future of the game. Users would still talking about it, because nobody likes to be silenced when there could be other ways and make happier more person as possible.

[Rosedamai]

Because leaving the current situation wouldn't be more positive for the future of the game. Users would still talking about it, because nobody likes to be silenced when there could be other ways and make happier more person as possible.

It doesn't matter if the users are happier or not. The retirement of the Frills made many people unhappy but it was done nevertheless. You seem to not recognize the enormous range of rights spriters have over their art, perhaps you should look it up. Sometimes people don't get what they want.

 

Also re on the lineage boxes-unless the "decoration" is just a complete recolor of the lines surrounding the lineage boxes whatever the decoration will be will block some of the dragon sprite. Also color clashes. I doubt people will be happy with that.