ANSWERED:Release of Prize dragons in-cave

[Princess_Pinkie]

So, in summary, a poll wouldn't work because it wouldn't be fair, but we need to have a poll?

 

 

I don't see much point in them dropping in the cave. They're meant to be exclusive prizes.

yep it's contradictory because doing a poll would be that way if there was one. there's no "fair" way to implement this idea.

[Vhale]

I've seen similar things done like this where it was a release for some sort of milestone. Like DC's 5th anniversary or some such. But where it was also limited. IE, you could click a link and randomly get 1 of aforementioned prize dragons or HMs. Basically, letting them be more available but still limited. Here, I'd assume they'd drop in the cave but how many you could pick up would be limited. But given the bugs we've seen on limits before, I'm not entirely sure if that's feasible.

/ramble

 

Basically, I'm not opposed to the idea of them being in the cave. But I think there's an opportunity for an event by using them for a limited release. Which would, in turn, help them keep value as HMs while still taking stress off prize owners.

[Sheriziya]

Basically, I'm not opposed to the idea of them being in the cave. But I think there's an opportunity for an event by using them for a limited release. Which would, in turn, help them keep value as HMs while still taking stress off prize owners.

A limit of 2 CB from the cave? Kinda like the Christmas and Valentine holidays? I wonder if that's doable. It would probably mean current prize owners would only be able to pick up 1 from the cave and might start complaining about that. Then again.... Everyone would have the possibility to have 2 CB prizes. Event wise, how long would the event last, especially if we limit the amount of CB's people could have?

Hmmm.. I kinda like that idea!

Okay, just so that I understand it correctly (and going on the assumption that new prize dragons might be implemented in the future, again I don't know anything about that! It's mere speculation!), an adjusted suggestion might be, according to your proposal:

 

Prize dragons released during the years following this last raffle:

Raffle 0: this is the raffle 2013 of which the prizes have just been handed out. In other words, the Tinsels & Shimmers

Raffle 1: special dragon 1 for prizes (1, 2 and 3) in raffle, Shimmer-scales and Tinsels retire and become available for HM as CB.

Raffle 2: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels are still retired and available for HM as CB.

Raffle 3: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 retires and becomes available for HM as CB, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels become available for a limited release event

Raffle 4: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 is still retired and available for HM as CB. Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels are available again for a limited release event

Raffle 5: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 becomes available as a a limited release event together with the Shimmers & Tinsels. Special dragon 2 becomes available for HM as CB.

Raffle 6: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, Special dragon  2 is still available for HM as CB. special dragon 1, Shimmers & Tinsels are available again as a a limited release event together with the Shimmers & Tinsels.

Raffle 7: Special dragon 4 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 2 becomes available as a a limited release event together with Special dragon 1, the Shimmers & Tinsels. Special dragon 3 becomes available for HM as CB.

Etc.

 

Thoughts on that?

 

ETA: Oh, and come to think about that.... with a limit of 2 CB prizes being released in the cave, we kinda NEED new prize dragons cause I guess everyone will hunt for those 2 limited CB prizes...... errr.......

Edited February 8, 2014 by Sheriziya

[whitebaron]

Actually, I'd like a mixture of this and the black shimmer. Just release a recolor to the cave. as others said: omg, black shimmers.

[cyradis4]

Has anyone heard from either spriter if they'd be willing to let their Prizes be released in-cave? The consolation prize thread knows how the artists stand, because they said so. But.... I don't think TJ can / will release the Prizes into the cave if the artists are against it.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Sheriziya]

Hmmm... Good one. I'll PM Marrionetta and Mysfytt about it.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If people want to retain it as a prize while making it more accessible... maybe three years after they stop being used in the raffle, it becomes available as a reward for those who obtain one of every adult sprite?

 

Or those who raise a certain amount of dragons? 2,500? 5,000?

 

Maybe it could be an and / or case. In the "or" case, you get one prize of your choice once you finish one of the two goals. Would allow for more diverse play styles to reach it. In the "and" case, you could get one of each prize type, picking the one you prefer once you reach the first goal and getting the second after.

 

(As more prizes are added, I suppose other goals would have to be added as well. Maybe once you hit the first goals new ones are unlocked, like 2,500 going to 5,000, needing to have two of every sprite, so forth and so on)

 

Perhaps what color of Prize you get in each case is determined by when you hit the goal. Just as an example, maybe if you reach all sprites within one year you get gold, two years you get silver, anything beyond that bronze. Hopefully it would only count days in which you actually performed an action of some sort on your scroll (logging in, using an action, grabbing an egg, whatever) so that people who went away for a while wouldn't suffer for it.

 

The issues are we'd need to calculate a reasonable amount of time for goals (what's the soonest someone can hit 2,500? how much wiggle room should be allowed before the cutoff?), and older players would be at something of a disadvantage--they might already be at the goal completion point, but since they didn't know they had to do it quickly, someone might be annoyed to find out they only got a bronze because they took their sweet time collecting rather than running for the finish line.

 

The other alternative would be to just let people pick which color they want, but I feel that'd be gold-heavy. Personally I'd take a Silver Shimmer or Bronze over a Gold any day, but if there's a lot of "Gold = better" mentality, they might vastly outnumber the other types... although, perhaps if slower players end up getting the scarcer prize, that'll be its own type of balance!

 

This would break the spontaneous egg creation gig, but the raffles and GoNs already to that anyway. Plus... such a reward favors long term players by default, which of course are the types of players a game benefits most from having. Would be a nice perk for sticking with the site while still being equally accessible to all who join later.

 

Some possible issues, though, are that as new dragons are added the "obtain everything" goal would steadily become harder. It also means people would likely only be able to get one color of each prize, which while still way better than having none, still isn't 100% ideal IMO.

 

Just an idea.

Edited February 8, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[whitebaron]

adp: achievement based dragons have been shot down how many times already by the "general public"? I thin for prizes, it would be even worse. especially since some people would instantly get them, and others would never, due to playstyles.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

adp: achievement based dragons have been shot down how many times already by the "general public"? I thin for prizes, it would be even worse. especially since some people would instantly get them, and others would never, due to playstyles.

I know, but I still thought it was worth mentioning, since it's about the only compromise between "release them for everyone" and "keep them as prizes" that I could think of (bar increasing the winner amount drastically, which seems just as unlikely, haha).

 

If it did happen, though, the more ways to reach the goal the better, to match as many play styles as possible.

[Fiona]

ADP, I can only speak for myself, of course, but I think dragons only obtainable for reaching specific collecting goals is not a good idea. There are too many divergent play styles here, and we really don't want to endorse one over another.

[Sheriziya]

If people want to retain it as a prize while making it more accessible... maybe three years after they stop being used in the raffle, it becomes available as a reward for those who obtain one of every adult sprite?

Do you mean every adult sprite of every breed that's out there? Including Dino's? That would mean someone would have to have about 200 dragons, not counting all the double ones, etc. I've counted all adult sprites on the wikia and currently we've got (without spriter's alts, discontinueds and leetle tree) about 200 sprites. (I did count all holidays since it is technically possible to get those in one year).

 

I assume you're talking about one year of playing and not one year since the last raffle the prizes were handed out in the raffle?

 

This would make an interesting change on the market, I think. But what about the people who don't visit the forums and don't have any way to trade for the dragons they need? After all, it's way easier to get loads of the same commons that of the breed-only's, rares, etc.

 

Yes, it would be interesting for veterans, but it might be percepted as a negative thing for new users. I've been here on and off four about 4,5 years now and I still don't have all the breeds. I don't regard that as a negative thing, but if such a thing would be implemented, it would mean a possible drastic (possibly compulsory?) change in playstyles. I don't know if that's something good or bad. I honestly don't know.

 

Hmmm.... I'm in doubt by this idea.

 

I know, but I still thought it was worth mentioning, since it's about the only compromise between "release them for everyone" and "keep them as prizes" that I could think of (bar increasing the winner amount drastically, which seems just as unlikely, haha).

 

If it did happen, though, the more ways to reach the goal the better, to match as many play styles as possible.

Perhaps Vhale's idea might work? I've made an adjusted suggestion about that proposal.

 

ETA: I've gotten a response from Mysfytt about the two suggestions:

My answer is No - to either option, though if TJ asked for it to be discussed specifically he might be liking the idea. - I don't like the idea. I would like to keep the 'prizes' as just that - given out as prizes. If the coal color participation prize idea is implemented there would be no reason to mass release metallic prizes. I think this would devalue the metallics - not just in the trade value, but also in the eyes of the prize owners, because now their special won dragon is available for EVERYONE to have one - where is the special in that?

~Mysfytt

Edited February 9, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Naruhina_94]

Do you mean every adult sprite of every breed that's out there? Including Dino's? That would mean someone would have to have about 200 dragons, not counting all the double ones, etc. I've counted all adult sprites on the wikia and currently we've got (without spriter's alts, discontinueds and leetle tree) about 200 sprites. (I did count all holidays since it is technically possible to get those in one year).

 

I assume you're talking about one year of playing and not one year since the last raffle the prizes were handed out in the raffle?

 

This would make an interesting change on the market, I think. But what about the people who don't visit the forums and don't have any way to trade for the dragons they need? After all, it's way easier to get loads of the same commons that of the breed-only's, rares, etc.

 

Yes, it would be interesting for veterans, but it might be percepted as a negative thing for new users. I've been here on and off four about 4,5 years now and I still don't have all the breeds. I don't regard that as a negative thing, but if such a thing would be implemented, it would mean a possible drastic (possibly compulsory?) change in playstyles. I don't know if that's something good or bad. I honestly don't know.

 

Hmmm.... I'm in doubt by this idea.

 

 

Perhaps Vhale's idea might work? I've made an adjusted suggestion about that proposal.

 

ETA: I've gotten a response from Mysfytt about the two suggestions:

My answer is No - to either option, though if TJ asked for it to be discussed specifically he might be liking the idea. - I don't like the idea. I would like to keep the 'prizes' as just that - given out as prizes. If the coal color participation prize idea is implemented there would be no reason to mass release metallic prizes. I think this would devalue the metallics - not just in the trade value, but also in the eyes of the prize owners, because now their special won dragon is available for EVERYONE to have one - where is the special in that?

~Mysfytt

The special would be having them before than anyone else. Still, we have many reasons in the OP about why original prizes wouldn't be devalueted.

I don't think that relasing them would devalue the metallics, since if they were rare as CB gold or silver (not more or less) they would still be required and the value difference would be minimum.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[Rosedamai]

My answer is No - to either option, though if TJ asked for it to be discussed specifically he might be liking the idea. - I don't like the idea. I would like to keep the 'prizes' as just that - given out as prizes. If the coal color participation prize idea is implemented there would be no reason to mass release metallic prizes. I think this would devalue the metallics - not just in the trade value, but also in the eyes of the prize owners, because now their special won dragon is available for EVERYONE to have one - where is the special in that?

~Mysfytt

Welp. That settles that.

[Fuzzbucket]

Welp. That settles that.

Yes indeed. Mysfytt has the absolute right to naysay it.

 

As to the idea of collecting EVERY SPRITE (for any kind of project, not just this one) - what about discontinued dragons ? There could always be more of those, too And people who don't want to collect dinos or other unbreedables - would they be forced to do so or miss out ? That idea would impact far too much on all the various chosen playstyles.

[Sheriziya]

It only shows what Mysfytt thinks, although it's important to hear this opinion. I won't argue that. It doesn't settle anything yet, though. It's only settled once TJ makes a judgement

 

Yes indeed. Mysfytt has the absolute right to naysay it.

 

As to the idea of collecting EVERY SPRITE (for any kind of project, not just this one) - what about discontinued dragons ? There could always be more of those, too And people who don't want to collect dinos or other unbreedables - would they be forced to do so or miss out ? That idea would impact far too much on all the various chosen playstyles.

Errr... I assume you're talking about ADP's suggestion about the prizes being some kind of trophy reward after they've retired from the raffle?

 

One important thing that "springs" out of Mysfytt's comment I think, is this:

though if TJ asked for it to be discussed specifically he might be liking the idea. - I don't like the idea.

 

I do agree with Naruhina, though, that I don't think that after 4-5 years of exclusivity the prizes would be devalued by putting them in-cave as rares, like the gold and solvers. I seriously doubt that.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Rosedamai]

It only shows what Mysfytt thinks

And...as the sprite artist she has the right to the uses of the sprite, and I hardly think that TJ will go against the wishes of the spriters.

[Fuzzbucket]

It only shows what Mysfytt thinks, although it's important to hear this opinion. I won't argue that. It doesn't settle anything yet, though. It's only settled once TJ makes a judgement

I did think artists had the right to decide these things - it came up before about something and Sock said nothing could be done to change a dragon without an artist's consent, unless they didn't respond in (some specific time frame.) And I agree with her that putting them in cave would devalue them.

 

And yes, I referred to ADP's suggestion there. Because I don't think anything should be contingent on having to completely change your playstyle.

[CNR4806]

I did think artists had the right to decide these things - it came up before about something and Sock said nothing could be done to change a dragon without an artist's consent, unless they didn't respond in (some specific time frame.) And I agree with her that putting them in cave would devalue them.

 

And yes, I referred to ADP's suggestion there. Because I don't think anything should be contingent on having to completely change your playstyle.

As far as I'm concerned, that "time limit" thing only applies to starting a suggestion thread, ie. I can start a thread about dragon X without its artist's consent if they failed to reply to my enquiry. I don't recall this policy being powerful enough to bar artists from suddenly coming back and shoot down a suggestion made in this manner.

 

Besides, if the artist really dislikes the idea, they can always pull the "I'm retiring this breed" card, so it kind of renders the point moot.

[Tawanda001]

What's the base of this thread?

 

  - leaves most of the users only dreaming of getting a prize dragon, their only hope a long gen months, or even a year or more in the future. This seems to be especially true to new/casual players since they have very limited scroll space in comparison to veteran players who are already at their max spaces.

    Creating lineages with prize dragons is hard because the lineage creator can't get the dragons s/he wants

    Balance between low-gen and high-gen prize dragons for breeders both in obtaining and creating lineages

    Not enough CB Prize dragons to make good lineages

    CB prize owners want to keep the feeling that they've got something exclusive.

 

 

Which is all culminating in a trademarket which has gone insane (or a trademarket where we have no seemingly fair balance anymore), if I may deduce that from the comments. I don't have any experience in the trademarket, so I can't really say anything about it. This leads to the a general feeling amongst a (big?) part of our community:

Although DC was original a fun collectables games, it's become a trading game where it's become hard to actually collect every dragon you want.

Not to be a debbie downer, but I fail to see how putting a prize in cave, as a nearly impossible to catch rare (see complaints from players who go years without catching metals), many years after they have been awarded as prizes, does a whole lot to improve bad feelings over the raffle situation? Or helps in any way with the trade market problems created by newly minted prizes?

Not to say that it's not worth discussing on it's own as a suggestion, just because people would eventually like to see them in cave, but I think it's too far removed from the raffle itself to be considered an improvement to the event. My 2 cents worth.

[Amazon_warrior]

Not to be a debbie downer, but I fail to see how putting a prize in cave, as a nearly impossible to catch rare (see complaints from players who go years without catching metals), many years after they have been awarded as prizes, does a whole lot to improve bad feelings over the raffle situation? Or helps in any way with the trade market problems created by newly minted prizes?

Not to say that it's not worth discussing on it's own as a suggestion, just because people would eventually like to see them in cave, but I think it's too far removed from the raffle itself to be considered an improvement to the event. My 2 cents worth.

Indeed. If older prize dragons get released in the Cave down the road, they're just going to be what metallics are now - tied up on fast catcher scrolls waiting for trades for whatever the current prize dragons are. Do people really enjoy that situation so much that they want more of it?

Edited February 9, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[cyradis4]

Artists do have veto right: see what happened with Frills. Its possible Mysfytt could change her mind, but really.... This thread has too many potential downsides.

 

So I would suggest instead a petition to TJ to keep the same 6 sprites as the only prizes: ie, no new prize sprites. So the CBs get spread even further and don't do a Dodo bird on us, like the Hollies almost did.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

Artists do have veto right: see what happened with Frills. Its possible Mysfytt could change her mind, but really.... This thread has too many potential downsides.

 

So I would suggest instead a petition to TJ to keep the same 6 sprites as the only prizes: ie, no new prize sprites. So the CBs get spread even further and don't do a Dodo bird on us, like the Hollies almost did.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Yes indeed. I totally support this, and NOT the release of the prizes in cave. Ever.

[Imzadi]

Indeed. If older prize dragons get released in the Cave down the road, they're just going to be what metallics are now - tied up on fast catcher scrolls waiting for trades for whatever the current prize dragons are. Do people really enjoy that situation so much that they want more of it?

Some of you are upset with prices for second gens? What exactly do you think the fast catchers of CB prizes would ask? They would surely not be dropping them all over the AP or the departure threads.

 

The more I read of this and some of the other suggestions, the more I think that people have fair confused with equal. Fair means everyone had the same chance to win. It seems you don't want that, you want equality, and no raffle or contest is ever, ever, equal. Just ask Manning and the Broncos.

[Draco Knight]

Unfortunately, I really don't see much point in arguing in favor anymore of the spriter(s) are uninterested in their creations being in the Cave after a few years of being ludicrously exclusive. :/

 

I certainly don't want a larger variety of prize dragons is something like this didn't happen(maybe if Shimmer and Tinsels eventually became HMs, maybe...).

 

Guess I'll go back to fervently wishing for larger prize pools for the raffle.

[Fuzzbucket]

Unfortunately, I really don't see much point in arguing in favor anymore of the spriter(s) are uninterested in their creations being in the Cave after a few years of being ludicrously exclusive. :/

 

I certainly don't want a larger variety of prize dragons is something like this didn't happen(maybe if Shimmer and Tinsels eventually became HMs, maybe...).

 

Guess I'll go back to fervently wishing for larger prize pools for the raffle.

If the prizes stay the same - tins and shimmers for ever) the pool will grow. Not fast, but it will. Better that than - as someone has said - this kind of thread showing up after every raffle.