ANSWERED:Release of Prize dragons in-cave

[Noonmutter]

This is like whining that there's a winner and a loser in a sporting match. Somebody is going to win and somebody is going to lose, and giving everybody a trophy makes the experience only average out as "okay" for everyone, instead of giving a feeling of genuine excitement, or earning them something of legitimate value.

 

If you put the prize dragons as standard cave releases, they not only lose their trade value, but they lose their novelty value too--if you can get one if you're just fast enough, they're not much more valuable than CB metals, which are still valuable, but not particularly special in and of themselves anymore--at which point the whole cycle of moping starts all over again with another dragon, or another lineage, or similar. Bawww I want a Thuwed TJ should give us all a Thuwed for free right now!

 

If you lose, accept losing gracefully. I won this year and it totally blindsided me. Know what I'm doing with my prize? Making lots of other people happy with it.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Mremaknu

[dragongrrl]

I don't need the Prizes to start dropping in the Cave, so no to this idea.

 

Yes, I love even-gens, and better than half my scroll is CB as building blocks for a number of planned lineages, but I don't need the Prize dragons dropping in the Cave. Let them stay as special, and rare as they were intended to be. I have OCD, too, but I'm not a masochist, and there are so many other gorgeous, and under-appreciated dragons in the Cave.

 

 

Of course,

LOL, that looks like an April Fools set-up. I can just imagine logging in and seeing every egg beginning with "This egg is very reflective."

 

"This egg is very reflective, with strange markings on it."

"This egg is very reflective, and surrounded by fog."

"This egg is very reflective, hidden in some leaves."

 

It would be mass chaos. :-D

this would be seriously funny!

 

And I really love the idea of getting the Coal Shimmer every year! <3

[angelicdragonpuppy]

i just don't see a point. if people knew their dragons would become cave releases in four years, despite how long that is, why should they trade high valued dragons for something they could possibly get later on in the game? and it *is* a long time, yeah, but it would still make differences in the trade market. not to mention we'd need more prize dragons.

Because four years is a really, really long time to wait. As someone else pointed out earlier (and it startled me), the cave hasn't even been around eight years yet. So, for half the cave's current life, people would be going without low gens of that breed. I think it's fair to believe people would thus try to trade much earlier.

 

And even if Prize dragons come down slightly in value, is it a huge issue? They don't always go for a massive price, certainly, but if they wanted to ask for it a Prize owner could certainly net multiple CB Metals for the average 2nd gen. Would it be so horrific if instead of having a dragon that could net four CB Metals with every one of its shiny offspring, it could only net one or two? Does a prize have to be that insanely, incomparably valuable to be a prize...?

 

I also don't think needing more Prize dragons is an issue. We need three new sets of Holiday dragons each year, and they're always met by excited spriters. I imagine one new set of dragons every two years wouldn't be much to ask--especially when prizes don't have dimorphism, just different colors.

[Noonmutter]

And even if Prize dragons come down slightly in value, is it a huge issue? They don't always go for a massive price, certainly, but if they wanted to ask for it a Prize owner could certainly net multiple CB Metals for the average 2nd gen. Would it be so horrific if instead of having a dragon that could net four CB Metals with every one of its shiny offspring, it could only net one or two? Does a prize have to be that insanely, incomparably valuable to be a prize...?

The problem with your argument is that the only reason these eggs can get that kind of price is because there are people willing to pay it.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The problem with your argument is that the only reason these eggs can get that kind of price is because there are people willing to pay it.

Ah, yes, because I'm sure nicely asking everyone to only offer one CB Metal per egg would work so well.

 

Except, no, one person would cheat the unspoken rule, offer two or three, and go around taking all the eggs while everyone who did abide by the rule missed out.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes, it is. You are suggesting a different dragon that isn't what people need.

In my opinion it should be the most of the players to decide, even if it's sad to say.

NEED ? We NEED pixels ?

 

And I say again - we have no idea what the majority of players - or even forum members - want. Nor any way to find out. Even in this thread - set up effectively to promote the idea - there are a LOT of people who are against it.

[Imzadi]

4 years? for the first year's winners, yes. And some of them are inactive. So there is a pathetically small group of people with 4 years of anything. This year's winners would have one year at most then. Is that fair to them, if you are all that concerned about "fair"

 

A prize is a prize is a prize. People won, others didn't. It's how raffles work. When the first contest was announced, quite a few people could see dissatisfaction and drama lurking in the not so distant future. Well, it's an established fact now, they aren't going away unless TJ gets fed up with all the whinging.

 

To paraphrase: "Most people are about as happy as they choose to be." I see a few people determined to wallow in misery.

[Noonmutter]

Ah, yes, because I'm sure nicely asking everyone to only offer one CB Metal per egg would work so well.

 

Except, no, one person would cheat the unspoken rule, offer two or three, and go around taking all the eggs while everyone who did abide by the rule missed out.

That doesn't negate my point, it proves it.

 

There's no actual rules regarding how much you can ask for an egg or offer for one. If you think it's an injustice that people can set their own prices, push for THAT to change, rather than taking away a randomly-chosen reward from people who deserve it no more or less than you do.

[cyradis4]

That doesn't negate my point, it proves it.

 

There's no actual rules regarding how much you can ask for an egg or offer for one. If you think it's an injustice that people can set their own prices, push for THAT to change, rather than taking away a randomly-chosen reward from people who deserve it no more or less than you do.

The injustice is that all but a handful of players do not have access to HALF of the shiny metals that are in the game. Not in a form in which they can use them to create a large subset of lineages.

 

HALF.

 

Over half, actually. Lets see..... 6 Prize sprites divided by (6 Prize sprites + Golds + Silvers + 3 Coppers) = 6 / 11 = 54.5%.

 

There are six metallic prizes. There are only 5, count em, FIVE, other "metal" dragons. And I'm using that term loosely, as Coppers and Silvers aren't really shiny. They are metals, just not shiny.

 

There are only two ways to really be fair to the general userbase:

1. Never ever release a new breed as a Prize dragon. Ie, keep using the same 6 sprites (Tinsels and Shimmers) as Prizes.

- Doing otherwise will create a massive number of the BEST sprites which the average user can't use to create their own lineages. In a game that is both a collecting and breeding game, equally, that will start driving a lot of the average players away.

- Keeping the same 6 will keep the hope alive that you can someday get a prize, and get the lineages you want.

 

2. Replace the existing Prizes and then release the old Prizes into the cave.

 

Why? Because otherwise, there are over HALF of the metallic sprites, the prettiest half to boot! which only the absolutely wealthiest users can use to create their own lineages.

 

 

In short, I'm dead set against there ever ever ever being a new Prize breeds.

No new Prize breeds = this is a moot topic.

New Prize Breeds = I'll probably leave UNLESS something like this is implemented.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 7, 2014 by cyradis4

[Qualeo]

Honestly, I really don't think its the prizeowners that set the price as much is it is the non-prize owners. Desperation for something rare leads to offering a bunch. I don't see it as the prizeowner's fault that everything got inflated - its everybody's fault.

 

Anyways, I don't think we could fairly vot eon this either because the group most affected by this ind of change happens to be a minority. Of course non-owners are going to vote yes for it because they want it. We wouldn't have much of a say in the vote unless you had two different polls - one for owners and the other for everybody.

 

Besides, hese raffles are meant to be fun after all. Theyw ere a new thing - but it sobvious they'll never be fun. I'm a bit biased in my opinion obviously, but I think the consolation varient is still a better idea than this.

 

Besides, even if you do release them incave, you'r likely to NEVER see one. Cnsdering their current ratios right now. And that'll bring even more complaining.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Qualeo

[cyradis4]

Anyways, I don't think we could fairly vot eon this either because the group most affected by this ind of change happens to be a minority. Of course non-owners are going to vote yes for it because they want it. We wouldn't have much of a say in the vote unless you had two different polls - one for owners and the other for everybody.

 

Besides, hese raffles are meant to be fun after all. Theyw ere a new thing - but it sobvious they'll never be fun. I'm a bit biased  in my opinion obviously, but I think the consolation varient is still a better idea than this.

 

Actually, I don't own a CB prize and I'm in favor of never releasing them into the Cave, but only if these same prize dragons are the only ones ever used AS prizes.

 

Its not an either or, it depends on what other mechanics are put into place. I suspect a lot of users are going to view it that way.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 7, 2014 by cyradis4

[Tawanda001]

Honestly, I really don't think its the prizeowners that set the price as much is it is the non-prize owners. Desperation for something rare leads to offering a bunch. I don't see it as the prizeowner's fault that everything got inflated - its everybody's fault....

Besides, even if you do release them incave, you'r likely to NEVER see one. Cnsdering their current ratios right now. And that'll bring even more complaining.

Totally agree with this.

 

Of course non-owners are going to vote yes for it because they want it.

Not so much this, I think there are a lot of us that are not really supportive of this particular solution.

[Sheriziya]

4 years? for the first year's winners, yes.  And some of them are inactive. So there is a pathetically small group of people with 4 years of anything.  This year's winners would have one year at most then.  Is that fair to them, if you are all that concerned about "fair"

If you look at the schedule, the current winners would have this year and then 2 more years, if there was a new breed to be introduced:

Raffle 0: this is the raffle 2013 of which the prizes have just bene handed out.

Raffle 1: special new dragon 1 for prizes (1, 2 and 3) in raffle, Shimmer-scales and Tinsels retire and become available for HM as CB.

Raffle 2: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels are still retired and available for HM as CB.

Raffle 3: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 retires and becomes available for HM as CB, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels become available from now on as a rare dragon in the cave.

 

So, even the current winners (raffle 0) have three years (okay, instead of 4) (this year and the next 2 years) to enjoy all the benefits of having a CB prize (like: multiple priceless dragons like metals + wagonloads of common hatchies, etc. I've seen some of those offers......).

And than a new prize becomes available.

 

So I'd say that's quite fair.

 

I'm with C4 Point of view: Either the Shimmers and Tinself remain the prizes indefinitely or we need to find a good solution. And I am honestly convinced this schedule is the best solution if TJ decides to have more prize dragon breeds. And like I said both here and in other topics, I think it wouldn't hurt if we'd have more prize dragon breeds. Heck, I hear people complain that the holiday releases aren't pygmies (besides the Pumpkin) or any other type of breed. The prizes might fill a void there, if you use the schedule.

 

I still don't see why 150 winners should control the market for ever just because they were lucky enough to win a prize in a raffle they didn't do anything more for than any of us did.

 

It's a raffle in a collectables GAME. I can make the book raffle comparison again, but it wouldn't add anything..... But that is how I see raffles. The results of the current raffles is more like a state lottery than a fun raffle where you get an item before anyone else gets it.

 

If TJ decides to only use Shimmers and Tinsels for all eternity (or: as long as the game runs) in raffles, this whole topic is moot, like I've even already stated in the "Improve the raffle" thread. I didn't feel the need to include it here at first, but for the sake of argument, I'll include it in the OP now.

 

And just in case anyone wonders, I do have a few metals which were very generously gifted (never saw a metal in the cave for my life!) and all prize dragons are generous gifts as well. Personally I don't care if they're 2gen or higher, but I can understand that breeders would like to have 2gens to be able to make the lineages they'd like and preferably in the end more CB's to start the lineage they want instead of being dependant on the winners.

That's one of the reasons I made this suggestion and started this topic

[Draco Knight]

Honestly, I really don't think its the prizeowners that set the price as much is it is the non-prize owners. Desperation for something rare leads to offering a bunch. I don't see it as the prizeowner's fault that everything got inflated - its everybody's fault.

Exactly. However, the very fact that such desparation exisits in the userbase at all calls for a drastic change, I think.

 

If this option were set against a few of the others, I'd pribably be more in favor of something like a bigger prize pool assuming we would only ever be getting Shimmer and Tinsels ever again.

 

 

If someone can can up with a really solid reason aganst this besides, "They, eventually, won't be super completely special anymore!" Or a reason that doesn't circle back to that, I'd love to hear it.

 

Is it really so awful that something that is the envy of the entire userbase be made avaliable at some point(in what, two or so years from now?), and be replaced with something else to covet and desire?

 

I would be completely against this if we are never getting new prizes, but if we are...

[Melisande]

Of course non-owners are going to vote yes for it because they want it.

As some one who dose not have a cb prize I have to disagree.

 

I do not ever want to see them drop in the cave. Prize dragons are special, like Holiday Dragons or GoN. You can only get them through an event or special action. Making them drop in the cave, even recoloured, makes them less special.

 

If it means we only have the two types of prize... or if TJ dose what he did this year and increases the amount of prizes by adding a new breed (10 tinsel, 10 shimmer, 10 new prize) that will help more of the players get a prize and have more prizes out there.

 

I would probably quit if prizes started to drop in the cave... because what's next? CB of old holiday dragons that the artists said they did not want to drop again? Has any one asked what the sprites of the shimmer and tinsel dragons think about this? If people keep bothering them about making them drop and stuff they could ask tj to retire the dragon like the Frill was, and then no would have a new one ever, and they would not be able to breed.

[Sheriziya]

If someone can can up with a really solid reason aganst this besides, "They, eventually, won't be super completely special anymore!" Or a reason that doesn't circle back to that, I'd love to hear it.

Please, please, please, let us hear it! Although,with 59 pages of topic which included the combo suggestion in the end and which got closed.... I doubt anyone will find a solution that has EVERYONE's approval. The combo suggestion, of which this particular suggestion is still a part, was the outcome of several suggestions and loads of comments on all those suggestions.

 

Is it really so awful that something that is the envy of the entire userbase be made avaliable at some point(in what, two or so years from now?), and be replaced with something else to covet and desire?

Exactly! I don't understand why it should be so überspecial until eternity (or: as long as the game runs). If it should be so special, why have a second release of the Tinsels in the first place? Did the first round of winners feel less special because TJ decided to give the Tinsels as prizes again the next year?

Perhaps it's because I'm not a winner, or if I had been a winner I would have gifted a lot and huge trading packages wouldn't have interested me.................

 

I would be completely against this if we are never getting new prizes, but if we are...

Since TJ asked to have each of the suggestions discussed separately I wonder if he's already made a decision on that, or rather he'd wait what the discussions bring.....

[Tawanda001]

I dunno, the first tinsels were won in 2010, so this coming C'mas marks the four year period. So how would the transition work?

Tinsels given out one last time and those winners only get a year of being 'special' (and all the trade advantages along with that) before cave drops start, tinsels retired and a new breed given out, which means this years winners only get two years of being special? And if it doesn't start this C'mas it means the original prize owners get more than the four years allotted?

[cyradis4]

I dunno, the first tinsels were won in 2010, so this coming C'mas marks the four year period. So how would the transition work?

Tinsels given out one last time and those winners only get a year of being 'special' (and all the trade advantages along with that) before cave drops start, tinsels retired and a new breed given out, which means this years winners only get two years of being special? And if it doesn't start this C'mas it means the original prize owners get more than the four years allotted?

The suggestion calls for the Tinsels to be released in-cave only AFTER the Prize has been retired for two or three years.

 

Ie, the original Tinsel owners would automatically have the "benefit" longer than the new ones, but the new ones would still have at least 3 years of benefits.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Tawanda001]

So roughly seven years to see them in cave?

That might work as a long term solution but doesn't really address the problems we have now, which I thought was what we were trying to do, no?

[Naruhina_94]

So roughly seven years to see them in cave?

That might work as a long term solution but doesn't really address the problems we have now, which I thought was what we were trying to do, no?

Se need to find a long term solution, otherwise we will have this discussion over and over again.

[Draketeeth]

I do not ever want to see them drop in the cave. Prize dragons are special, like Holiday Dragons or GoN. You can only get them through an event or special action. Making them drop in the cave, even recoloured, makes them less special.

That just about sums up my feelings. I am not in favor of them ever dropping in the cave.

[Princess_Pinkie]

i'm also not a prize owner and i don't want them to be dropping in the cave.

 

honestly, if you were to have a poll, even that would probably end up mostly negative. and even a poll would never be completely fair because there are some prize owners who don't use the forum as much as others.

 

and if you plan on trying to get this implemented without a poll, that's just dumb lol

[TheGrox]

honestly, if you were to have a poll, even that would probably end up mostly negative. and even a poll would never be completely fair because there are some prize owners who don't use the forum as much as others.

 

and if you plan on trying to get this implemented without a poll, that's just dumb lol

So, in summary, a poll wouldn't work because it wouldn't be fair, but we need to have a poll?

 

 

I don't see much point in them dropping in the cave. They're meant to be exclusive prizes.

Edited February 7, 2014 by TheGrox

[Rosedamai]

Tbh I honestly think that out of all the situations this is the least likely to be implemented and the least likely to reach a conclusion because people have different definitions of what "raffle" and "prize" means.

 

1.a. a reward or honour for victory or for having won a contest, competition, etcb. (as modifier): prize jockey; prize essay.2. (Games, other than specified) something given to the winner of any game of chance, lottery, etc3. something striven for

I won't supply the definition for raffle here as I already did so a while back, but...I honestly believe that in a raffle or lottery prizes aren't meant for something rewarded as a merit of someone's participation. I feel like the basic requirements-get certain points bake a gingerbread house whatever-is more than enough and I would like to remind people exactly what happened the last time raffle prizes were given as a resulting of voting i.e merit of achievement. Massive malcontent. I think the system as it works now is fair as more raffles/lottery/other games of chance go.

Edited February 7, 2014 by ylangylang

[Fuzzbucket]

So, in summary, a poll wouldn't work because it wouldn't be fair, but we need to have a poll?

 

 

I don't see much point in them dropping in the cave. They're meant to be exclusive prizes.

No- I think that someone has said the MAJORITY of players want this and so we should have a poll to prove that they are RIGHT - but a poll proves nothing of the kind, as the MAJORITY pf players aren't on forum, and even of those on forum the HUGE majority wouldn't vote anyway.

 

I know we aren't supposed to say this - but it is only a few days since TJ did say he doesn't regard forum polls as indicative of anything, and prefers to read threads.

 

I agree with you about the no dropping in the cave and the fact that they are exclusive prizes. I don't have anything lower than 4th gen, and I haven't won, and that's still fine with me.