ANSWERED:Release of Prize dragons in-cave

[Marrionetta]

Releasing prize dragons identical to the original ones is unfair to the prize winners, but I like the idea of releasing prize dragons in other colors from cave, how this:

 

 

Let me know if I can not post pictures here

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd prefer not to happen.

 

Thanks though.

[KageSora]

Is better a slap in face to all the non-winners? 

As I said we could add something pretty to the original ones, so they will be really distinguishable even in lineage (and not just for their name and History).

Name color, frames... There could be some pretty and very visible solutions ^^

 

What about if the prizes relased in cave would have some types of breeding limits? Like they cannot breed with frilled and old pinks. This is a thing that only original prize dragons could do, so they would mantain a certain control over these lineage! (this would imply that each prizes owner would immediatly earn a Frilled egg if he has none)

Or

The relased prizes could be limited per scroll. 2 golds, 2 silvers, 2 bronze for each type.

You can take more Prizes eggs from the Cave but they will be relased automatically in the AP after 24 hours if you don't trade them to someone who have lesser than you

This would prevent to make the rich richer

What, exactly, is this supposed "slap in the face" to the non-winners? Losing the raffle?

 

Because I gotta say that I highly question the maturity of anybody who can't handle the fact that the lost when the vast majority of people who enter will lose. (Aside from small children who are still learning that they don't get an award for everything--I am aware that such children play this game with their parents. Anybody older than that, however, really needs to learn to handle disappointment in life because I don't know how they'll function. Oh wait, I do--they're the people who are complete jerks to minimum-wage employees because they can't stand the idea of being wrong)

 

 

If the eggs were going to become as rare as a waterhorse egg at an unspecified later date then that should have been made clear from the beginning so that the 1st-3rd place winners could make an informed decision about if they wanted a limited release of a future cave egg or if they wanted a never-obtainable-in-the-cave CB Hybrid or Holiday dragon. As it is, the prize winners were never made aware of that possibility being on the table. That is what is disingenuous if the eggs are released in the cave.

I fully agree.

 

If I were to win and knew for a fact that the prize I won would eventually be fairly easily obtainable at a later date (or, hell, just obtainable and not exclusive to being a prize), I would instead opt for an HM award that will never be obtainable (like a CB hybrid) since that would retain the value as by their nature the hybrids will never really be released to the cave. (Well, I suppose they could be, but then that defeats the point of them being breeding hybrids)

 

Why make the HMs potentially more valuable than the prizes?

[Draco Knight]

It is disingenuous, yes. However, what has ever been completely set in stone in this game?

 

There was strong opposition before and after the gold sprite change, yet they were changed.

 

We were told, on multiple occasions, that the 2-per person limit on Holidays was never going to change, there was A LOT of opposition to such a thing, yet here we are. I've released frozen CBs because I was assured in the fact the limits were never going to be lifted. I made such a decision with the knowledge available at the time, under the impression that was the only way I was EVER going to be able to have two adults, EVER. Should I get to retroactively get my hatchlings back from the Wild? I wasn't aware at the time, that two years from then limits would be lifted. I don't even mean unfreezing them, just getting them back at all.

 

I don;t really support an in cave release anymore, as the spriters aren't interested, just saying that this game has a history of changing 'set in stone' policy.

[Irys]

How does the lifting of the lineaged Holiday limit affect the number of CB Holidays you can own? It doesn't. You have the opportunity to catch 2 CB of each Holiday.

 

That "set in stone" policy actually has not changed.

 

And here's another difference: the informed decision.

 

In 2008, TJ released Yulebucks. We were all told that we could have a limit of 2 Yulebucks on our scroll.

 

I caught 2. I froze 1.

 

I knew that by freezing that hatchling I was not going to be able to breed it, because that's pretty clear in the game mechanics. I regretted the action later, sure (I released the hatchling and got a 2nd gen adult, actually, and never froze a CB holiday again). But I made an informed decision to freeze the hatchling.

 

Lifting the limit on my ability to own 500 2nd gen Yulebucks does not affect the limit of 2 CB Yulebucks I was allowed on my scroll. All it's done is allowed me to be able to keep some of my 2nd and 3rd gens, and to now have BOTH hatchling stages frozen on my scroll without freezing my CBs.

 

Edit: Back on topic: It is disingenuous to tell a player that they got first place --they get one of 10 never-before-seen dragons. Touting and implying that this prize is SUPER SPECIAL because there are only 10 of them this year. Giving them the option of picking the 4th place runner up prize, which is obviously not as SUPER SPECIAL as the top prize-- and then going "LOLNEVERMIND" and making that first place prize as common as dirt.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Irys

[Draco Knight]

The limit was two CBs, yes, and that has not changed. However, why should i have assumed someday in the future I would be able to catch all the past Holidays my scroll would allow for? Every year I played the game, the limits were constant. I made the decision to release my frozen CB hatchlings under the impression it was the only way I would be able to have two adults, ever.

 

If I had, had an inclining that limits for past Holidays would be lifted, I would never have released them in the first place. My decision to Freeze was an informed one, I guess. However, my decision to Release them i don;t think was. When I decided to release them, there wasn't very much support for limits being lifted in anyway, so I couldn't even infer from the forums as to what could happen in the future.

 

On topic: I don't support the in cave release anymore, but the argument of an 'informed decision' didn't seem like a strong one, at least to me. Edit: Which I'll admit maybe I feel that way because I've been burned, so I have less sympathy to that particular argument.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Draco Knight

[Irys]

It is always better to make an informed decision than an uninformed one. Information changes our behavior and our choices. Informed choices are often better than choices made in ignorance.

 

 

At any rate, I have provided indirect evidence to support my opinion that the “Prize” for the raffle was the exclusive ownership of a CB dragon that does not have ties to the cave, and that the prize owners had reasonable expectation that their CB dragons were permanently exclusive.

 

So far the evidence I see for the “Prize” being the early release of a future Cave dragon (with or without a pretty border, name color, etc.) seems to be that TJ never explicitly SAID, with actual words, that the prizes were exclusive and/or not going to be released in the cave.

 

That seems less like evidence and more like ignoring evidence, ignoring the spirit of the thing, and finding a loophole to exploit.

 

 

 

 

 

[Draco Knight]

I feel like both sides of the 'completely exclusive to Raffles' only have evidence that begs the question. Meaning, all the evidence that isn't TJ09 explicitly saying something one way or the other(I don't think he has?) is only conclusive if the cases they support are already true.

 

Haven't the spriters already said no to this idea, anyway?

 

@KageSora: If anyone finds a CB Yule Hatchling with the 'Forced' message that was hatched on the 27th, it could very well be mine. I can see the logistical insanity of trying to reunite owners with their released Holidays, unfortunately.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Draco Knight

[KageSora]

Re: releasing holidays:

 

Actually, just to mention, there are those of us who think it would absolutely only be fair if there were a way to prove that you had a hatchling (or adult) and released it due to the limits that you would get it back.

 

The real problem with it, imo, is how hard/impossible it would be to prove that you had one/which one you had.

[Irys]

Evidence of exclusivity only "begs the question"?

 

++

Indirect evidence: Evidence that establishes collateral facts from which the main fact may be deduced (inferred) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.

 

Example: "Bob's fingerprints were found at the scene where Bill was killed" and "I saw Bob go into the house, I heard a gunshot, and I saw Bob running away." From this indirect evidence we can infer that Bob, if not the killer, was at least in the vicinity at the time.

 

Direct evidence: Supports the truth of an assertion without inferrence.

 

Example: "I saw Bob shoot Bill."

 

Note: Don't disregard indirect evidence. Direct and Indirect evidence are both valid sources of evidence and indirect evidence alone can be enough to convict Bob even if no one actually saw Bob shoot Bill. In fact, enough indirect evidence can outweigh direct evidence.

++

 

So here's the thing. There is no direct evidence (yet) one way or the other. We don’t have TJ saying “These are supposed to be early releases and will be released in the cave sometime in the future.” We also don’t have him saying “these are exclusive releases that will never be released in the cave.” (The spriters have said their against it, but then also said that it was actually up to TJ according to their new contracts, if I read correctly).

 

So I'm going to line up the collateral facts, the indirect evidence, from which I deduced a main fact through reasoning.

 

 

Assertion: There was a reasonable expectation of permanent exclusivity.

 

Support: It is a fact that Dragon Cave is a closed environment with two sources for CB eggs—Cave and Raffle. It is not like real-world scenarios. Wide release CB eggs are available in the cave. Certain other eggs are only available as a CB in the Raffle: (excluding the G.o.N.) Tinsel, Shimmer, Hybrids, and certain previous year Holidays.

 

Support: It is a fact that the Raffle has 4 prizes with specific awards based on the ranking. 1st-3rd place win a Tinsel or Shimmerscale. 1st place has fewer winners than 3rd place, clearly showing a difference in rank and exclusivity of one over the other.

 

Support: It is a fact that the CB Tinsel and Shimmer have been given more value in the Raffle over eggs found in the cave or descended from cave dragons which are relegated to the 4th place prize as an “honorable mention.”

 

Support: It is a fact that Holiday dragons, which are available as CB for 1-3 days of the year of their release, and then never again as a CB are also relegated to the 4th place prize as an “honorable mention.” This makes them, as far as the raffle is concerned, of lower ranking as the 1st-3rd place prizes.

 

Support: It is a fact that Lineaged prizes are apparently flagged as commons. TJ explicitly said that there have been more prize eggs produced in the past year than any other common. They are essentially rock-bottom common.

 

Deduction:

 

* CB Tinsel, CB Shimmer, CB Hybrids, and CB previous Holidays are intended, by design, to be of greater rarity/value than eggs currently available in the cave.

 

* CB Tinsel/Shimmer is intended to be of greater rarity/value as a reward than a CB Holly.

 

* CB Tinsel/Shimmer was never intended to be released in the cave as such a release would undermine the clear difference in the prize ranking that has been intentionally established. 1st place would cease being 1st place and become 4th place. Release in the Cave turns the CB Tinsel, which was designed to be greater than a CB Holly*, into at best the same rarity as a CB Gold and at worst (if the breeding ratio holds) a new cave blocker.

 

The above infers that the very design of the raffle creates, and even promises, a reasonable expectation towards the prize that they won: that prize will remain more exclusive than a CB Holly*.

 

(*Holly used as it is the first of the exclusive Holiday releases.)

--

 

Assertion: There was never an expectation of permanent exclusivity.

 

Support: There is no direct evidence to support exclusivity. TJ never outright said it in actual words.

 

Support: Things change in the game, and this could be one of those things.

 

Support: ... (Anyone? No, seriously. If you can change my mind by providing more/stronger indirect evidence, then I'm game.)

 

Deduction:

 

The claim that "TJ did't outright say it" does not outweigh the very design of the raffle itself. "Bob didn't admit to shooting Bill. Therefore Bob didn't shoot Bill, no matter what the indirect evidence says."

 

Obviously, TJ very well could change his mind and release them. He is totally allowed to undermine his own Raffle mechanics and prize system. But the fact that he has the power to make the call does not support the idea that there was "never" an expectation of exclusivity and that the raffle itself does not create such an expectation.

 

 

(Aside: I would love to get my CB Yulebuck back. T_T But them's the breaks and I don't expect it, or demand it.)

Edited February 13, 2014 by Irys

[Elachu]

What, exactly, is this supposed "slap in the face" to the non-winners? Losing the raffle?

 

Because I gotta say that I highly question the maturity of anybody who can't handle the fact that the lost when the vast majority of people who enter will lose. (Aside from small children who are still learning that they don't get an award for everything--I am aware that such children play this game with their parents. Anybody older than that, however, really needs to learn to handle disappointment in life because I don't know how they'll function.

Thanks a lot Kage! I thought exactly the same while reading this topic. It really looks like people just want to change the whole raffle system just because they didn't win.

Whats so wrong with having two dragons which you can only obtain as cb by a raffle?

 

It would be the same like we have nowadays with gold and silver dragons. Most people can't catch those themselve, while others are hoarding 20/30/40 cb gold/silvers on their scroll "for lineage projects". Technically it isn't fair either. Would you ask TJ for changing that too, so everyone can catch their own gold and silvers? I honestly don't think so, because it would drop their value massivly and would be "a slap in the face for cb gold owners"

 

This isn't meant to be rude, I just can't the the true point of the whole discussion. You can collect so many kinds of tinsel and shimmer lineages. You can have one of each color on your scroll (except the alts) easily. All the drama because you can't make even gens with them? Or is it jealousy about not having something "valueable"?

[DarkEternity]

In my opinion, we shouldn't even be trying to directly infer from straws whether or not TJ was going to rerelease dragons. It's missing the point. Like I said, if you were very worried about whether or not the free gift dragon you received was going to be rereleased again, as well as speaking like a potential investor, why not act like a potential investor and contact the admin and ASK whether or not it was going to be released, before accepting the free dragon?

 

Maybe it's about taking the initiative, rather than constructing evidence that exclusivity is a given.

 

Honestly, stating that the raffle is or could be a deception when you've won something free is just bad form, when others of us would have taken the dragon whether it's going to be rereleased or not. And happily.

 

And for the record, the supposed exclusivity of HMs was never an apparent assumed given. Users have written at least two large controversial threads asking for HM prizes to be released in-cave - quite a while after the raffle. TJ stated that it wasn't changing. But the difference here is I don't recall anyone arguing that the raffle was a deliberate deception and that exclusivity is OWED.

 

[purplehaze]

This isn't meant to be rude, I just can't the the true point of the whole discussion. You can collect so many kinds of tinsel and shimmer lineages. You can have one of each color on your scroll (except the alts) easily. All the drama because you can't make even gens with them? Or is it jealousy about not having something "valueable"?

I believe that at least some of the people who are pushing for this and other things to "improve the raffle" are quite genuinely upset about not being able to make even gens with them (or at least finding it extremely difficult to make the kind they want.)

 

I am an even gen breeder, too, and I would like to be able to do more with the Prize dragons in even gens. But I don't think it is worth upsetting the whole Raffle system and making massive changes to the way Prizes are obtained.

 

There are so many other beautiful dragons that are more easily obtained and look very nice in even gen lineages. I don't need to have Tinsels and Shimmers to build lineages around.

 

Not everyone feels as I do.

[Fuzzbucket]

I believe that at least some of the people who are pushing for this and other things to "improve the raffle" are quite genuinely upset about not being able to make even gens with them (or at least finding it extremely difficult to make the kind they want.)

 

I am an even gen breeder, too, and I would like to be able to do more with the Prize dragons in even gens. But I don't think it is worth upsetting the whole Raffle system and making massive changes to the way Prizes are obtained.

 

There are so many other beautiful dragons that are more easily obtained and look very nice in even gen lineages. I don't need to have Tinsels and Shimmers to build lineages around.

 

Not everyone feels as I do.

I do, just for the record. I also agree with Kage Sora:

 

What, exactly, is this supposed "slap in the face" to the non-winners? Losing the raffle?

 

Because I gotta say that I highly question the maturity of anybody who can't handle the fact that the lost when the vast majority of people who enter will lose. (Aside from small children who are still learning that they don't get an award for everything--I am aware that such children play this game with their parents. Anybody older than that, however, really needs to learn to handle disappointment in life because I don't know how they'll function.

Edited February 14, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[DarkEternity]

Well the discussion's largely redundant anyway.

(I think the spriters ought to get final say in the fate of their sprites)

 

What, exactly, is this supposed "slap in the face" to the non-winners? Losing the raffle?

 

Because I gotta say that I highly question the maturity of anybody who can't handle the fact that the lost when the vast majority of people who enter will lose. (Aside from small children who are still learning that they don't get an award for everything--I am aware that such children play this game with their parents. Anybody older than that, however, really needs to learn to handle disappointment in life because I don't know how they'll function.

The same argument can be applied conversely and in direct relationship to the topic.

Edited February 14, 2014 by DarkEternity

[AnanoKimi]

Can I make a note I made in the "No new Prize Dragons" Thread:

 

If lets say OPs plan is put to work, and that is how raffles are run from now on, I would like everyone to stop calling them 'prizes' because they will not be prizes, they will be pre-releases. Prizes incur that they are exclusive forever. You don't win a gold medal at the olympics for it to be given to everyone in the olympics 4 years later.

 

They will be CB planned pre-releases that people will have a chance at winning. To use the term 'Prize' on something that will not be exclusive only to winners is misleading and wrong.

 

Prizes are Prizes

Pre-releases are Pre-releases

Prizes cannot be pre-releases

Pre-releases can be won as Prizes

Though they cannot be called Prize Dragons.

 

Just thought I'd leave that note there for everyone. I really think this plan would be nicer if rather than releasing them to the cave, they where kept as HM longer and then retired from raffles but not from breeding. But I doubt all the "I want one too!" people are gonna let us actually have true prize dragons.

[Tawanda001]

Prize only means 'something of worth', it in no way means exclusivity.

[CNR4806]

Prize only means 'something of worth', it in no way means exclusivity.

Regardless, they are called "Prize dragons" as being used as prizes is the sole purpose of their creation (or adaption, in the case of shimmerscales).

 

It isn't a Prize Dragon when everyone and their cats can have a CB.

[AnanoKimi]

Prize only means 'something of worth', it in no way means exclusivity.

A prize is something given out to winners within a contest or raffle to award skill or luck. Grabbing one in the cave is not 'winning'. Its simply, obtaining by ones own means. Therefore it is not a prize.

 

Something of worth is rare or priceless but over all obtainable through one's own means. A prize is not obtained by one's own means, it can only be obtained by form of participation and either earning it through a show of skill or being lucky enough to win through chance.

 

So as I said:

A Prize is a Prize

A pre-release is a pre-release

Prizes cannot be pre-releases

Pre-releases can be won as prizes

Though they cannot be called 'prize' dragons

 

Regardless, they are called "Prize dragons" as being used as prizes is the sole purpose of their creation (or adaption, in the case of shimmerscales).

 

It isn't a Prize Dragon when everyone and their cats can have a CB.

 

This made me giggle because of the cat part but I agree with this.

Edited February 23, 2014 by AnanoKimi

[Fuzzbucket]

Regardless, they are called "Prize dragons" as being used as prizes is the sole purpose of their creation (or adaption, in the case of shimmerscales).

 

It isn't a Prize Dragon when everyone and their cats can have a CB.

When I got prizes at school, I would get to choose a book I wanted. It was in no way exclusive, but it was a prize, and I was thrilled.

 

I wish ALL prizes here could just be HM style.

[WraithZephyr]

Prizes are Prizes

Pre-releases are Pre-releases

Prizes cannot be pre-releases

Pre-releases can be won as Prizes

Though they cannot be called Prize Dragons.

a prize is a prize even if the dragon is simply a pre-release that will eventually be available to everyone.

 

 

I can enter a raffle for a chance to win a specific type of a new car. Everyone else in the world has the potentially to buy that same kind of car later. I just happened to win the prize of getting one before them. It's still a prize even though it's still a pre-release.

[whitebaron]

prize:

 

1: something offered or striven for in competition or in contests of chance

2 : something exceptionally desirable

3 archaic : a contest for a reward

 

In no ways does the term prize EVER has to do with exclusivity or has to be something new. If I win a mainstream car, it will be as well a prize and one of literally billions of cars.

[AnanoKimi]

Pre-releases can be prizes. I never said they couldn't. As I have seen mentioned here before

 

Not everyone wins a prize like not everyone at the Olympics gets a gold medal

 

This is what I mean by Prizes cannot be pre-releases. Pre-releases can be seen as prizes, like someone mentioned, they could win a book that could be obtained by anyone in the class, the school, the city probably, that didn't meant it wasn't a prize. Yes, pre-release dragons can be seen as a prize, you got something before everyone else. But they cannot be set into a separate category of Prize dragons, because basically everyone will have one in a matter of months/years. They will always remain in a category of readily or cave available dragons.

 

It simply does not retain the same value. I don't mean like 'market' or 'trading' wise, I mean more along the lines of personal I guess? not entirely personal because from quite a few who like to say "Its not devalued as a prize" though I'm about 60% sure they'd beg to differ if they won. If its something everyone can get and not really different than what is common then I don't see it as a prize. It may be a prize in terms of being won, but not a prize in terms of its value. If you won that book and then compared it side to side to one readily available, people would probably go "Uh-huh...?" saying, "I won the one on the left in a school contest" wont make them say "Oh cool! thats so special and awesome" They'll probably just say "Oh, good job." In contrast, if you won a limited edition of said book with content not available in the readily available one, the response would be "Oh sweet, can I read it some time? That is so cool, I wish I could have one too." You see what I mean.

 

Anyways, enough with anecdotes because anytime I make a comparison using an anecdote, people take it super literal rather than a comparison of views. I can predict about 2-4 people will take my little anecdote super literal.

 

Seeing as I dislike the idea of them being released in to the cave as a number of other prize winners also do, I tried to devise something similar here where Prizes where demoted to Honorable mention for a number of years then retired from contests/raffles but allowed to continue breeding for life. All in all as I have mentioned before, there is no beating the "I want a CB too" people who seem to outnumber the prize winners and those who kinda see what the prize winners see in terms of "Lets just keep CB prizes as prizes but lets spread the 2nd gen joy like mad". Despite the fact that the spriters of the current prizes will not allow for a cave release of Tinsels/Shimmers, if new prizes are added, I can see the plan on this post coming to be.

 

If so then whatever. It wont keep me from events even if they come with a raffle or contest, and if I win, who cares really, I'll be able to get 10 more 1-2 years from then so who really cares. Heck I could kill the one I win as a prize and not worry because I could just catch one later. I could trade it away and it wont matter because I can catch one later. I could freeze it at any stage I like because I can get one later. Its not as valuable as not being able to get 20 more later. Knowing that what you have is the only one you have and the only one like it you get just adds that extra bit of special to it. Just saying.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2014 by AnanoKimi

[demonicvampiregirl]

I say no to this entirely. Why? It's simple put them in the cave and the CB prize dragons will loose all value. If I had one would I like seeing everyone being able to get the same CB as I have at a later date when I waited for a raffle to be done and participated to be able to win one? No I wouldn't. That means ALL the work I put into participate and try to win the raffle to be meaningless. I should have just waited to get it in the cave if that is the case.

[Guillotine]

You'd rather wait anywhere between 2 to 4 years for a chance to get a CB/low-gen of a breed rather than try to get a shot at being one of the few to have one for that very lengthy time period? Even 2 years is a pretty long time to have near-exclusive control of what lineages exist for that dragon, not to mention the trade issue, and that's banking on the raffles being amended to 2/year; with the current timing, it'd be four years. Four years will be half of DC's lifespan in May.

 

I really feel like people aren't thinking about how immensely huge these numbers are for a pixel dragon game, even a fairly long-lived one. You're part of an exclusive group for a long time, and even after they're released they'd be rares--not exactly valueless, there, since even 2nd-gen Golds and Silvers can go for quite a bit. And that's without the ideal of giving the ones won from the raffle some kind of visual indicator of their prize status (because it'd be rude to the winners to not at least have a marker next to the dragon's name).

 

V I support this suggestion; I'm pointing out how silly it is to deem Prizes "worthless" because they will in the distant future be released to the cave.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Guillotine

[DarkEternity]

I'd be willing to wait 20+ years to see them in cave.