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AnnieLyla

Frozen

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I get irritated when people start declaring that Frozen is racist. The aspect of riding a reindeer is not Saami, it is Siberian. Scandinavian Reindeer are too small to ride. The story itself was inspired by a Danish tale (But set in Norway, I think?) but that aspect was most likely derived from Siberians. Moreover, the Saami people did not inhabit all of Scandanavia, thus, making the cast Saami would have been strange and historically inaccurate, just like if they were all POC.

 

user posted image

 

 

 

Side note but did anyone notice Oaken's family?

 

user posted image

Edited by pudding

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-snip-

Except we already have 50 bazillion white princesses, so why not take the opportunity to put some more representation out there? Children not seeing people like them in media does, unsurprisingly, lead to lower self-esteem. Yeah, it's a children's movie. Do people forget that children of color exist? In case anyone needed a reason to support more characters of color.

 

Whenever people bring up "why is there no POC in this film" white people respond with "it's not historically accurate" (which is horsewash in and of itself), which is a lot of the reason people are bringing up the history behind the story and the missed opportunity. It's not just spouting from nowhere, it's because they're outright being told "the story is based on white people" and "POC weren't around in that place and era" and "the Saami are white" all of which is inaccurate.

Plus the fact that they appropriated Saami culture without even consulting with any Saami people.

 

Finally, I don't care what the purpose is, when you misrepresent cultures like that, ignore forced assimilation and colonialism, when you ignore the racist system we live in today, movies that do what Frozen did go towards protecting a culture that allows white people and white-passing people to get away with the rape, murder, and torture of POC.

 

Did I enjoy Frozen? Yes. Would I watch it again? Definitely. Hoping to get my sister to watch it with me. But that doesn't mean that criticism of it is automatically negated or incorrect. That's a pretty crappy attitude.

 

The aspect of riding a reindeer is not Saami, it is Siberian.

 

I think you have some misinformation here. Reindeer husbandry is such a huge part of Saami culture it's a legally protected right for them.

 

The story itself was inspired by a Danish tale but that aspect was most likely derived from Siberians. Moreover, the Saami people were not even from Denmark so making the cast Saami would have been strange and historically inaccurate, just like if they were all POC.

 

On this point:

 

that chilling, moving chanting in the beginning of the movie that so many people love? that’s a Sami yoik, a traditional Sami song.

 

Another key fact: the artwork I’ve seen for Frozen so far displays seriously arctic landscapes. Like, you would not find that in Denmark. Or here in Helsinki. Or even up in Lapland. You’d have to go all the way to the North Sea to find anything remotely resembling that. And I can guarantee that most of the people you’ll find living there will not be white and blond.

 

First of all, from what we’ve seen, Frozen is pretty LOSELY based on The Snow Queen. They are taking artistic liberties with the story already, so why not add in some PoC characters? Or cross-culture adapt the Snow Queen in like, the Andes  Or Mongolia? Or Hokkaido? How cool would that be?

 

    Secondly, Disney has made a conscious choice to make ANOTHER movie with a setting that gives them plausible deniability when it comes to the inclusion of PoC characters. Remember Aladin? Mulan? Movies that were set in places that actually had PoC in them? And yet, this makes 3 films in a row (if we count Brave) that will not have a SINGLE PoC in them.

 

    You know, if Disney is so censorkip.gif*** concerned about IGNORING the immigration PoC populations present in Europe within their European set movies, maybe they should consider going back to making a few movies every now and then NOT SET IN EUROPE. The rest of the world has fairy tales too, after all.

 

    (Though, a non-European setting isn’t even a guarantee. Look at Tarzan. A Whole movie set in god damn Africa with nothin but white people in it.)

 

And as someone else pointed out:

 

We even SEE people of color in the crowd shots at the palace! They are around! They are there! In the kingdom! But not a single one has a single whisper of dialog. We have dignitaries from foreign countries (Scotland and Spain both even get some speaking roles) but having so much as a tan disqualifies you from speaking in this movie.

 

1.)”The Snow Queen is an ALL WHITE STORY, that’s why all the characters are white!!!”

 

    Not really. Most European fairytales can be found all across the globe. There is a Snow White version in East Asia and the earliest Cinderella version dates back to Egypt. So yes that includes Hans Christian Andersen’s “The Snow Queen”. Google for more info!

 

And trying to find the breakdown of it's basings in Snow Queen and why that means squat for the whitewashing that happened.

 

 

 

I like the story, too, but you can't just sit there and defend the whitewashing of a fairy tale because "historical accuracy" (when you can't ride a reindeer like they showed, when they included a talking snowman, when they had a queen with ice powers, when the scenery doesn't back up what you're saying) or deny the fact that the lineup of Disney princesses is so white it's blinding. Seriously, what would anybody here have lost if Frozen had been more inclusive of people of color? =\

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I did have one problem with the movie that I remeber vividly. When Anna decided to find Elsa, she left the kingdom to somebody she /just met/. Like literally, she saw him only a few hours before. There are obviously better choices than a foreign prince, no matter how much you "love" him. Surely there were advisors who took care of the kingdom while everyone was waiting for Elsa to come of age and take her place on the throne. I almost leapt out of my seat I was so shocked by Anna's poor choice. I don't know if Disney was trying to show just how blindly Anna trusted Hans, or if they just needed to use characters they already had introduced, but...it felt rushed. It didn't feel like a proper scene to me. I really felt that Disney just wanted to get the part where Anna starts trying to find Elsa, and who cares about the kingdom. Becuase the princess sure didn't right then. Surely, I hope, everyone would know better than to trust a competing monarch with your own kingdom...

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Another key fact: the artwork I’ve seen for Frozen so far displays seriously arctic landscapes. Like, you would not find that in Denmark. Or here in Helsinki. Or even up in Lapland. You’d have to go all the way to the North Sea to find anything remotely resembling that. And I can guarantee that most of the people you’ll find living there will not be white and blond.

 

Don't know how valid of a point this specific one is, Sock. Don't think it really counts when the landscape is only that frozen because of artificial purposes.

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Don't know how valid of a point this specific one is, Sock. Don't think it really counts when the landscape is only that frozen because of artificial purposes.

Actually, I misread that post - my bad. It was someone's thoughts before the movie had actually been released. I only saw it once - were there any arctic landscapes before Else began freezing everything?

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I loved frozen! But I'm getting tick with how many people are complaining about the smallest details. So what Anna left hans in charge of her kingdom! He was her 'husband'!

For the reacord, there is a disney princess that's african american. All but three charries in that movie are african american!

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Frozen was a great movie. I don't see why everyone doesn't like Olaf... He was quite funny and didn't take away from Anna and Elsa.

"I can't feel my legs."

"Those are my legs."

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I think you have some misinformation here. Reindeer husbandry is such a huge part of Saami culture it's a legally protected right for them.

 

And trying to find the breakdown of it's basings in Snow Queen and why that means squat for the whitewashing that happened.

 

 

 

I like the story, too, but you can't just sit there and defend the whitewashing of a fairy tale because "historical accuracy" (when you can't ride a reindeer like they showed, when they included a talking snowman, when they had a queen with ice powers, when the scenery doesn't back up what you're saying) or deny the fact that the lineup of Disney princesses is so white it's blinding. Seriously, what would anybody here have lost if Frozen had been more inclusive of people of color? =\

Not just Saami people, though. There is absolutely nothing indicating that the reindeer riding is Saami. As I said, riding reindeer (As well as other activities) is a Siberian tradition. Saami people could NOT do it because their reindeer are too small. No part of the riding of the reindeer says that it has to be from that culture when many other cultures existed in the area at the time.

 

 

She was in an icy mountain, yeah. At that point, there was no freezing.

Plus the ice business. You'd need some cold for some ice. But for the most part, it doesn't look THAT cold. Like, summer in Iceland cold.

 

 

 

I would have loved to see a Mongolian tale based off of the Snow Queen. I've seen the designs and everything. But having a tale set in Norway about the ruling family... The POC in Denmark and Norway at the time (There are some illustrations done of them) Were largely servants to the royal family. They didn't have a word in the common language to describe the people because commoners rarely saw them (The word they used was derived from Latin, which normal people did not learn).

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I loved frozen! But I'm getting tick with how many people are complaining about the smallest details. So what Anna left hans in charge of her kingdom! He was her 'husband'!

For the reacord, there is a disney princess that's african american. All but three charries in that movie are african american!

Exactly what I mean, why people keep complaining about every single detail of this animation?

 

I do agree about Disney needs to make more movies with other cultures, I do recognize I'd still love Frozen if any of the main characters would be people of color but come on guys! We don't need to stay complaining over and over about these problems or any minimum details of an animation. Enjoy the movie and hope the studio make some changes in the future movies.

 

Between, the movie is set in Scandinavia. wink.gif

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I think it's good for people to speak up, but I wish that they wouldn't take it as a blow to their culture.

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I kind of love Sven biggrin.gif and my favorite song is probably fixer upper at the moment, but I love them all

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I wish this movie had actually been good.

Please, elaborate. I personally don't think it was the greatest thing ever, but I don't think it was bad either.

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It was good but it was not the best thing ever.

I personally don't like Disney animations that much, seeing as I often refer to them as 'song montages with a bit of story involved'.

But Frozen was good, yes. It was excellent, in fact.

 

But it definitely was not the finest animation yet.

Edited by Psyduсk

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I just went with my friend last night and saw it for the second time. (She hadn't watched it yet.)

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Though, with the whole thing with Hans at the end...  Spoilers! Him being the bad guy really just felt like an "oh crap we need a bad guy!  HURRY MAKE IT HANS!" thing to me.  Supposedly "Love is an Open Door" is supposed to be his villain song?  From what I've heard?  If so, though, it's incredibly subtle and the reasoning I heard sounded more like people grasping for any indication they can get to show he was evil all along.  Aside from the quick flick of his yes up to the light in the scene where he stops Elsa from being shot...  It really felt out of place.

 

And I don't like how things ended up with Kristoph (spelling?) at the end.  At first he was all "Dude you've known the guy less than a day, you can't be engaged!"  And how much longer did he know Ana before it was fairly easily implied that the two of them were gonna end up together?  That was disappointing to me.

 

I will say, though, that I really liked how they went with sisterly love being the true love that was needed at the end.  That was awesome.

 

Removed the spoiler color so I could adress it...FINALLY! Someone agrees with me on the Hans thing xd.png. Besides I think it weakened the movie over all to make a villian.

 

Though I don't entirely agree with you on the Kristoph, while it is implied (its

Disney of course the good guy gets a/the girl) it doesn't end with them engaged, she simply gives him the sled that she promised him after his was destroyed.

 

Edit: http://satwcomic.com/frozen-scandinavia#comments

Edited by brairtrainer

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I really like that movie. I loved it how they did on sisterly love (which means a lot to me because I have 3 sisters). But my sisters have been driving my CRAZY singing the songs from Frozen. I mean, I love the songs, but they have been singing it to much. Yeah, I was really mad at Hans. But I am glad they had a villain in it. From the beginning you knew something had to happen to Hans because Anna and Kristoff were supposed to be together. I took a "What Frozen Character are You?" quiz, and I got Olaf. tongue.gif (of course I'm not as stupid as him, but I am very crazy) tongue.gif

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You gave me a good idea Mellwen. I took a couple of different quiz from Frozen and got Elsa for the two! I'm so happy with it biggrin.gif Also, my family is getting mad with me singing "Let it go" all the day too tongue.gif

It's a song that stucks on the head! I can't avoid singing it.

 

Also, people take a look here: http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/Idina-Menzel...o-Video/9427558

 

I can't believe Idina will sing at the Oscar. I'm super excited! biggrin.gif

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Outside of Frozen, I've actually heard some Saami people express worry about the risk of being "disneyfied", yes they used precisely that word, now when a bit of their livelihood is based in tourism. But as for in Frozen... Kristof's clothing was sort of inspired from some very Saami-like styles of clothing, and I did hear something that sounded like it could be joik in the intro and background music. The intro song was supposedly a joik, but I think it sounded more like a very vaguely "indigenous-sounding" song that could have passed for many different indigenous population in the world, coupled with a very heavy church-choir tone to it.

I'm no expert, but I think some of the background music sounded more like kulning, which is a Scandinavian (I use Scandinavian for simplicity's sake here to mean the "non-saami" population in that geographic area, but actually as far as I'm concerned "Scandinavian" should actually refer to anyone living in that geographic area) traditional way of "singing".

Have some examples:

 

Joik:

 

 

 

Kulning:

 

 

 

 

I'm on the fence if there should have been Saami people in Frozen or not; on one hand of course we've got to bring more diversity, on the other hand I don't trust Disney to make a good representation of the Saami people (and like I mentioned, the fear of Disneyfication), especially when I as a Scandinavian myself can tell that some supposedly Scandinavian things in the movie seemed a bit "off".

 

And btw, being a Saami does not have to mean you fulfill the stereotype of their physical looks of being short, dark-haired, dark-skinned and with brown eyes. It's fully possible for a Saami to be as blond, blue-eyed and pale-skinned as your stereotypical Dane.

Really, deciding someone's ethnic belonging based on how they look is something that's gotta go away, or else we'll end up with censorkip.gif like this again:

 

user posted image

 

Those are pictures from an exhibition in 1930, an exhibition made by the (today non-existent thank heavens) Institution of Racial Biology in Stockholm.

Edited by Ripan

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-Warning- This post contains spoilers.

 

 

While it bothered me that they said it was as good as The Lion King (since TLK was such an amazing movie as were the titles following right before it) I had my doubts. I'm not real big on computer animated films and don't consider them original Disney classics for that reason as I love hand-drawn animation. Back to the topic, I thought the movie was cute, but I wasn't blown away. Though, I will admit, the whole thing with Hans, that surprised me. And normally I pick up on those kinda things. I did feel there was something 'odd' about him, but I thought maybe the kiss just wouldn't work, but yeah. That was a good twist. I think my exact words at the moment were, "Ohhh snap!"

 

One thing that did blow me away was that music at the beginning, before the ice minor's song. That beautiful melody from the Disney logo to the Title? My gosh, that gave me goosebumps. I love that music.

 

That song, "Let it Go" I'm surprised they used the one from the movie to play on the radio and not the end credits version which I like a lot better. I mean, the movie one isn't bad, but when you've heard it over and over and over and over, it gets a leetle annoying after a while.

 

 

 

@Ripan, I adore that little pixel image of the dragon and the bunny. So kewt. biggrin.gif

Edited by Syiren

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Hans was about to CUT ELSA'S HEAD OFF. Are we not going to talk about that at all?

Yeah, that was bad, but I've seen other Disney villains do worse.

 

What Scar did to Mufasa,

The whole 'summoning the Cauldron Born' that the Horned King did from The Black Cauldron

Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame, he did a lot of really bad things.

Gaston stabbing Beast in the back before falling to his death.

 

I think what Hans did was tame in comparison to some other Disney villains. When it all boils down to it, Hans is just the whiny baby brother who got stuck with all of the hand-me-downs.

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I did find the "sisterly love saves the girl" thing at the end very cool. I don't think I've ever seen that . . . But it looked like Kristoff was a bit bummed out because he didn't get to kiss her or something. xd.png

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One thing that did blow me away was that music at the beginning, before the ice minor's song. That beautiful melody from the Disney logo to the Title? My gosh, that gave me goosebumps. I love that music.

 

That song, "Let it Go" I'm surprised they used the one from the movie to play on the radio and not the end credits version which I like a lot better. I mean, the movie one isn't bad, but when you've heard it over and over and over and over, it gets a leetle annoying after a while.

The moment I heard Vuelie playing at the beginning I was hooked. And then it was followed by Frozen Heart. Couldn't get a better beginning biggrin.gif

 

Now as far as movie plot goes, in other kinds of media it was already used tons of time (admittedly not all of the plot points in the same movies/books/shows ) but it was the first time that Disney used it, and I guess that's what threw people out of whack. Supposedly nice guy turning out to be a villain would in every other form of media be a minor surprise. Here, where people didn't even thought about it possibly happening, it turned out to be an effective event. And that goes for the rest of the movie IMO.

 

I did find the "sisterly love saves the girl" thing at the end very cool. I don't think I've ever seen that . . .

 

Especially the fact that Anna saved herself.

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