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LibbyLishly

Unfreezing

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Although there is a point for things that don't make sense to be able to trade during some seasons, namely out of season seasonals and out of season holidays (I can see people stocking up on those to freeze them for trade fodder later, which is why I would support something to make re-unfrozen hatchies untradeable, although I suppose an argument could be made for people who can't catch rares finally having something they may be able to trade for higher value stuff).

Seasonals would be a good idea, for sure. On the flip side, if it takes someone a year to catch 5 CB magmas, they could have a year to save up for a big trade. It would certainly make the Christmas Holly rush interesting o.O

 

But, the option of making it available only during a single week, and a low number such as 5, would negate most of that. People seemed to be inclined to an event around Easter, so playing with the whole "thaw" pun would seem perfect timing for such an event. Though personally, I think it would be nicer between Halloween and Christmas when the short release was a bit awkward anyway. In a sense, that would make it a user controlled release, which could be fun. I could see people holding on to some for a fun release into the ap, like a migration. I just don't know if that kind of behavior would mess up the ratio thing.

 

I think the trade aspect would be fun for people, but the safest thing would be insta adults. Any unfrozen frills etc would get the bejeezus view-bombed out of them the second they hit the trade thread.

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Nope. Not fun. Game-breaking and giving one group of players ("Freezers") a very distinct advantage over others ("non-Freezers"). The advantage of being able to trade retired breeds, old CB holidays or old CB commons that have become rare® since then. Like, uh, seasonals, for example.

 

No matter which way you spin it, this is what would happen to some extent. And limited release dragons aren't meant to be acquired in CB form years after the event. Neither are retired breeds supposed to be acquirable any more.

Edited by olympe

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This isn't a war, or a battle. It's just a group of people looking for a way to unfreeze a couple dragons even if just once a year. Just because some people aren't able to trade for CB golds all year, doesn't seem a good reason to stop other people from being able to MAYBE be able to trade for them for one week. And again, 5 unfreezes at most is probably plenty. I think people are deliberately ignoring reasonable limits just to make it sound like it's a worse idea than it is. IE spinning.

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I'm NOT ignoring limits but I do feel VERY strongly that unfrozens should not be available for trade. I have no particular view on whether unfreezing should or shouldn't happen, but I don't think using it for trade is OK. Not at any time. (You'd gain enough trade extra by unfreezing a CB holiday and getting 2nd gens from THAT after all !)

 

And that includes any that I might suddenly decide to....

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This isn't a war, or a battle. It's just a group of people looking for a way to unfreeze a couple dragons even if just once a year. Just because some people aren't able to trade for CB golds all year, doesn't seem a good reason to stop other people from being able to MAYBE be able to trade for them for one week. And again, 5 unfreezes at most is probably plenty. I think people are deliberately ignoring reasonable limits just to make it sound like it's a worse idea than it is. IE spinning.

It's not so much the 5 golds a year I'm worried about. It's more like the 5 BPs or 5 frills or 5 CB [insert holiday breed of choice here]. Or the 5 CB seasonals (which used to be blockers...).

 

That being said, there are other ways around your problem, Vhale. Like trading and re-trading your CB gold hatchie for an egg. Trying out IOUs. Offering something but CB golds. Whatever comes to mind.

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Why not just make a BSA that unfreezes.

 

Have it be like a slowly working/reversing spell that takes 7 days to work its magic. However, during that time, the hatchling is vulnerable, able to get sick easily, and can not be traded or handed off because it could possibly die if it leaves the dragon that casts the BSA? Like some kind of "life tie". (It will still need some views and clicks though.)

I think this is a pretty good RP explanation of how an unfrozen hatchie would be tradelocked. If this were to be a BSA, so far I like Syphoneira's ideas as to how 'Heal' (or something similar) might be used combined with this.

 

Regarding whether the unfrozens should be tradeable: I think that if this suggestion is going to get anywhere, the hatchlings MUST be untradeable. That's the first concern I've seen from everyone who opposes this on the grounds on anything other than 'Well, there need to be consequences for your actions'. So, Vhale, while I think you do present a good argument, most of the userbase is going to remain against it. Much as I'd love to trade for a Frill or an Old Pink, I think we need to throw out any possibility of unfrozens being tradeable.

 

Since TJ commented that what is important to him was that the action work intuitively and that it not be able to be abused, we should focus on that. Some pages ago, purplehaze explained that, as a mentor, she believes the mechanics would need to be simple to explain to new players, and I agree with that. So, does it make more sense for freezing to create adults with limitations and a time penalty that takes up a hatchling slot, or to cause the hatchlings to be restored to a growing stage, either with their original timer or with a 7-10 day time penalty, and locked to the scroll? Personally, I'd think the latter is easier to understand and much more visible.

 

Edits for super-awkward sentence structure.

Edited by LibbyLishly

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Plus, it could be put in the description on the actions page that an unfrozen hatchling needs to be raised normally and can neither be abandoned nor traded.

 

Unfreeze: Allows your frozen hatchling to grow up normally. An unfrozen hatchling cannot be abandoned or teleported.

 

Simple and covering the most important aspects.

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But then again, it does feel kinda sad that unfrozen dragons are tied to the owner's accounts.

But people tied it to their account when they froze the hatchling. Why should that beundone in addition to reobtaning the ability to raise it to adulthood?

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And, there are many things that would make playing DC more fun. Like selecting which dragons you get, instead of hunting for them. Like everyone getting a CB Metal or retired breed for free each month. Like everyone winning the raffle. Like no refusals, Like choosing which offspring... I could continue this little list for a whole lot longer, and all of these suggestions are as selfish (looks to me that way) as the unfreezing one.

I don't think any of those are really comparable. People desire CB Metals / Prizes / etc because they are rare. Because of that, there is a challenge in obtaining them and a definite satisfaction (and trading ability) reward in obtaining one. If everyone is handed one on a silver platter, the game becomes lukewarm and boring, where no dragon is really that much more valuable than the next. The same goes for choosing offspring. Trade markets would collapse, and with everyone able to all but instantly get what they desire, people would get bored.

 

In other words, it'd put a big ol' ax in DC as we know it. That doesn't sound particularly fun.

 

On the other hand, what does unfreezing hurt? Let's assume two things, for the sake of easiness: that 1) unfrozen things can't be traded and 2) people would in general choose to unfreeze rares. So, mainly what'd be unfrozen were CB Holidays, Frills and Old Pinks, and low-gen Metals, and only their offspring could be traded. Would that rock the market and make DC less fun? Well, 2g Holidays of everything but Holly (of which there are likely no frozen CBs) don't trade for all that much, plus the multiclutches mean lots of people would be getting them for free and not feel compelled to trade for them to begin with. Frill and Old Pink offspring don't go for much, either--and in fact there's an entire thread on the forums that lists people willing to breed offspring from them for free. Again, hardly crippling the market. As for Metals; there's so many around anymore that they almost don't seem to matter unless they're CB, which these wouldn't be. It took me three days to swap a 2g Gold for a CB Nebula... again, that's hardly an easy buck.

 

If handled in a way that prevents abuse (ex: people can't freeze a low-view hatchie and unfreeze a minute later for an instant adult), this suggestion would benefit some, not hurt anyone else, and IMO be no more selfish than allowing people to change their dragon's names or breed rare x rare. They're our dragons that we put a spell on; why can't we reverse that spell?

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I wasn't aware I had a problem tongue.gif

 

A lot of this discussion reminds me of teleport, the arguments against were all about what trades people thought they wouldn't get. Which is silly, as previously mentioned, 2nd gens from any of the rare unfrozen aren't worth much, if anything. And teleport opened trading up, rather than closing it down. We sure didn't have the huge trade forum then that we have now.

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Plus, it could be put in the description on the actions page that an unfrozen hatchling needs to be raised normally and can neither be abandoned nor traded.

 

Unfreeze: Allows your frozen hatchling to grow up normally. An unfrozen hatchling cannot be abandoned or teleported.

 

Simple and covering the most important aspects.

Not RAISED normally IMHO - "will grow up at once" ?

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I'm one of those "horrible" users that thinks freezing should last forever. Just because the game changed doesn't mean we should be able to suddenly take advantage of those changes.

 

Personally, I feel that IF unfreezing has to happen: the hatchy should immediately grow, not be tradable AND be unable to reproduce. Magic always has a cost afterall.. and those little Popsicles shouldnt be able to breed, period.

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I'm one of those "horrible" users that thinks freezing should last forever. Just because the game changed doesn't mean we should be able to suddenly take advantage of those changes.

 

Personally, I feel that IF unfreezing has to happen: the hatchy should immediately grow, not be tradable AND be unable to reproduce. Magic always has a cost afterall.. and those little Popsicles shouldnt be able to breed, period.

I also do not want an "Unfreeze" option.

 

 

I mean, freezing a hachtling is a conscious action, and why should I want to unfreeze what I really wanted to freeze <.<

 

Unnecessary, and a BSA should be rather used elsewhere instead on that.

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I have read through this topic, and I guess I'd actually be fine with freezing being reversible. It seems rather harmless in general and would make some people happy. Support!

 

However, I am definitely against making unfrozens tradeable, a big NO to that. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how being able to trade a hatchling you've been keeping since, like, 2008 makes any sense, it's almost like trading adults to me and could end up being a huge cause for abuse and harassment.

 

I think hatchies that get unfrozen should be unfreezable (err, that sounds silly, sorry xd.png). What I mean is: it'd be impossible to freeze them again once the freeze action is reversed once.

 

Also, if there has to be a "penalty" of some sort, then I'd say making the hatchling take up a slot for several days should be fine, and/or making it vulnerable or something along the line. Otherwise, making unfrozen hatchlings grow up to adulthood instantly also seems like a good option to me, because that's supposed to be the point of the unfreeze action, right? To undo the freezing spell and let the dragon mature.

 

In case of insta-adults, I believe it would make sense for the action not to be available by a dragon you have just frozen, to prevent getting around the time limits and turning hatchlings into adults earlier than those allow. Perhaps it should take about a week for a frozen hatchling to be unfreezable, something like that?

 

Going back to the topic of trading, I really think that the whole concept should be "unfreeze to grow the dragon to adulthood" rather than "unfreeze to get some awesome trade fodder", the latter seems like a wrong approach to me. The ability to undo an action you regret seems acceptable to me, but suddenly getting such a big advantage as a "bonus" just because you froze something back in the day is too much.

Edited by ZzelaBusya

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I'm one of those "horrible" users that thinks freezing should last forever. Just because the game changed doesn't mean we should be able to suddenly take advantage of those changes.

 

Personally, I feel that IF unfreezing has to happen: the hatchy should immediately grow, not be tradable AND be unable to reproduce. Magic always has a cost afterall.. and those little Popsicles shouldnt be able to breed, period.

While I have a feeling this will be unpopular among the pro-unfreezing crowd, I'm totally okay with those terms. I just want unfreezing to be possible, no matter what the restrictions.

 

I feel like this thread keeps rehashing non-issues, and it's honestly confusing me. The large majority of pro-unfreezing posts I've seen have been completely in favor of *non-tradable*... why is this still such an issue?

 

Okay, let's list stuff and ask questions:

 

IF unfreezing were an option, AND it had these limitations:

  • unfrozen hatchlings would be non-tradable and unabandonable
  • and/or the dragon would simply be locked to the scroll
  • unfrozen hatchlings would insta-adult
  • and/or would require the full 7 days to grow up, thereby taking up a "slot"
  • a frozen hatchie cannot be unfrozen for a certain amount of time, to prevent freeze/unfreeze

(did I forget anything?)

 

IF all of those limitations were in place, is there anyone who STILL has a legitimate reason why this shouldn't happen? If there are other reasons that haven't been addressed, maybe we should address those instead of re-hashing things that we've already talked about putting limits on.

 

Just my 2cents.

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I'm one of those "horrible" users that thinks freezing should last forever. Just because the game changed doesn't mean we should be able to suddenly take advantage of those changes.

 

Personally, I feel that IF unfreezing has to happen: the hatchy should immediately grow, not be tradable AND be unable to reproduce. Magic always has a cost afterall.. and those little Popsicles shouldnt be able to breed, period.

There doesn't seem to be much point in unfreezing them, then, which I gather is your whole point. wink.gif

 

I guess I am terrible, too, because I am still not convinced this should happen at all.

 

If it were to happen I rather like the idea of them having to be raised like a normal hatchling for 7 days from unfreezing. Negates any advantage to freezing and unfreezing to clear your scroll and attempt to get around limits. While they would still be hatchlings they would need to be glued to your own scroll and be untradable.

 

I also think they should have to remain frozen for a much longer time than some have suggested -- a week or a month is certainly not long enough. If the main reason that people want to have this ability is to be able to breed the CB holidays they froze and now regret due to changes in the rules, or OPs or Frills due to being discontinued, then a year is not too long. Those dragons will all have passed that limit anyway.

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I also think they should have to remain frozen for a much longer time than some have suggested -- a week or a month is certainly not long enough. If the main reason that people want to have this ability is to be able to breed the CB holidays they froze and now regret due to changes in the rules, or OPs or Frills due to being discontinued, then a year is not too long. Those dragons will all have passed that limit anyway.

I agree. I personally would like a compromise between the extremes, maybe 6 months or so. That seems like plenty of time. However, if people would feel more comfortable with a year, that's fine. As you said, if it's about unfreezing past holidays or discontinued, then a year wouldn't matter anyways.

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I was originally slightly against this, and now that I've thought about it more and read through this thread, I am even more against this. While I had no problem with the suggestion of allowing people to unfreeze their old holidays that they regretted freezing because of the new rule change, I do not like the idea of making freezing a reversible action in general. I see no problem with some actions being irreversible, even if they might cause regret later.

 

However, my main issue with this suggestion was that it is an easy way to get around hatchie limits. This suggestion would essentially give people another 15 (or however many freeze slots that they had) hatchie slots. If someone was hatchling locked, but they still wanted to hunt/trade they could just freeze some hatchies and regain over a dozen slots. They could then unfreeze the hatchlings when the time limit was up, essentially getting to have their cake and eat it too.

 

With the way freezing is now, players have to make the choice of if waiting till a hatchling grows up is worth the time that they have to take off hunting/trading. Even if unfrozen hatchlings were returned to 7 days time, it doesn't change the fact that the player was able to avoid putting in the time when they first caught the hatchling. Letting the player pick when they have the time and space to raise something is no better than instant adults, in my opinion.

 

And no, I don't think that this is how people would usually use the feature, because I don't think most people have a huge problem with hatchling lock. However, I think that around holidays, this is exactly how people would be using this feature. I know that I definitely suffered from the hatchling limits this past Christmas, and if I had been told that I could just temp-freeze 15 (or is it 16? I don't know) hatchlings so I could hunt for more, that would have been a very appealing proposal.

 

The only restriction that I've seen that would help to address this problem is Thuban's suggestion that unfrozen dragons would never breed. I think that it would be a logical consequence of freezing, and it would make people think twice before temp-freezing a dozen extra holiday hatchies. If that was implemented, I'd be totally okay with the idea of unfeezing (if anyone would even want it at that point). Obviously I'd also support the common sense restrictions like "must stay on scroll".

 

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I was originally slightly against this, and now that I've thought about it more and read through this thread, I am even more against this. While I had no problem with the suggestion of allowing people to unfreeze their old holidays that they regretted freezing because of the new rule change, I do not like the idea of making freezing a reversible action in general. I see no problem with some actions being irreversible, even if they might cause regret later.

 

However, my main issue with this suggestion was that it is an easy way to get around hatchie limits. This suggestion would essentially give people another 15 (or however many freeze slots that they had) hatchie slots. If someone was hatchling locked, but they still wanted to hunt/trade they could just freeze some hatchies and regain over a dozen slots. They could then unfreeze the hatchlings when the time limit was up, essentially getting to have their cake and eat it too.

 

With the way freezing is now, players have to make the choice of if waiting till a hatchling grows up is worth the time that they have to take off hunting/trading. Even if unfrozen hatchlings were returned to 7 days time, it doesn't change the fact that the player was able to avoid putting in the time when they first caught the hatchling. Letting the player pick when they have the time and space to raise something is no better than instant adults, in my opinion.

 

And no, I don't think that this is how people would usually use the feature, because I don't think most people have a huge problem with hatchling lock. However, I think that around holidays, this is exactly how people would be using this feature. I know that I definitely suffered from the hatchling limits this past Christmas, and if I had been told that I could just temp-freeze 15 (or is it 16? I don't know) hatchlings so I could hunt for more, that would have been a very appealing proposal.

 

The only restriction that I've seen that would help to address this problem is Thuban's suggestion that unfrozen dragons would never breed. I think that it would be a logical consequence of freezing, and it would make people think twice before temp-freezing a dozen extra holiday hatchies. If that was implemented, I'd be totally okay with the idea of unfeezing (if anyone would even want it at that point). Obviously I'd also support the common sense restrictions like "must stay on scroll".

I'm adding wording to the top post to reflect this concern, since it's very similar to the concern Users will freeze a hatchling and them immediately unfreeze it to achieve an insta-adult, freeing up hatchling spaces or having the adult immediately available to breed.

 

So far, the following solutions have been proposed for these issues:

A. Hatchlings cannot be unfrozen until they have been frozen for a long period time, e.g. a month or a year;

B. Unfrozen hatchlings can only be unfrozen if a hatchling slot is available on the scroll, and either the hatchling's original timer will be restored to take up that slot or, if the data does not exist, then the timer will be reset to 7 days;

C. Unfrozen adults should have a week-long cooldown before they can breed.

 

I have added your and Thuban's proposal that unfrozen adults NEVER be able to breed to the list of possible solutions. My personal opinion is that being unable to unfreeze for a full year would be enough of a deterrent, making people think twice before a 'temp-freeze'.

 

ETA: There is also the generic anti-abuse solution that has a limited number of unfreezes and/or a lengthy scroll-wide cooldown for the action. Being able to only unfreeze one Christmas dragon in time for Christmas breeding next year would make the idea of mass-temp-freezing rather pointless.

Edited by LibbyLishly

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Why not just make a BSA that unfreezes.

 

Have it be like a slowly working/reversing spell that takes 7 days to work its magic. However, during that time, the hatchling is vulnerable, able to get sick easily, and can not be traded or handed off because it could possibly die if it leaves the dragon that casts the BSA? Like some kind of "life tie". (It will still need some views and clicks though.)

I think this might help prevent people getting around and abusing what people fear?

 

- Takes up a slot.

- Can't trade.

- Can't hoard.

- Still have to raise it with a higher risk of it getting sick/dying.

- RP reason.

 

>.< Well I thought it was a good idea! xd.png

Edited by Lyxii

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For what it's worth, I'm mostly indifferent on this as long as it can't be "abused" (i.e. used to obtain adults faster than raising them normally) and generally behaves in an intuitive manner.

 

I'm thus not quite sold on the idea of unfrozen adults taking up an egg slot as compensation. It makes sense in theory, but I don't buy the RP reasoning, and it's definitely not visible to people (it's not clear from looking at your scroll that you actually have six slots used even though you have five eggs)--just like the 24-hour deathlock that the idea was based on, which already causes its fair share of confusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm bringing forward my last couple of posts, together with TJ's most recent post, because much of what's being objected to has had multiple suggestions forestalling such issues, and we've already had some input from TJ regarding what he might be more - or less - likely to consider, and why.

 

 

 

 

Just to mention, the issue driving the initial suggestion involved allowing people who had frozen dragons under circumstances which have changed, to break the 'eternal youth spell' on these dragons.

 

This was not intended to allow cheating or the routine use of Freezing with an intent to unFreeze later, merely to provide a counterspell whereby people can rectify a situation they feel is now unsuitable to current circumstance, and my personal recommendation would include only dragons Frozen in years previous to the current year.

 

When, a year, (or in many cases, years,) later, certain dragons are unFrozen, it seems simpler and more logical to have these dragons simply adult, in part, so that they can't be traded and also because adding complexity to a simple procedure isn't always a good idea, especially when it directly contradicts the purpose of the spell used.

 

Since the consensus seemingly stands at this Healing being a powerful spell which cannot be enacted on any scroll more than once a month, a maximum of 12 dragons a year could be released from their youth spell and matured as adults, this being the purpose of the counter-spell - to allow the dragons magically Frozen in the time of their youth to at last become adults, so that it seriously doesn't make sense to break the spell and not have them become adults.

 

This isn't about saving scroll space.

 

It's about letting dragons be-spelled into perpetual childhood finally grow up.

 

 

 

 

... This is the short version of what I've personally been suggesting, which simply and straightforwardly - without added complexity or penalties including death - addresses the actual issue of long-Frozen dragons people have kept as hatchies because of different circumstances:

 

 

Say, as an example, the White dragon has a Heal BSA which can Heal a Sick hatchie or egg, which can also, when applied to a Frozen, (although no more often than once a month,) Heal a hatchy which, after a year or more of being bespelled into perpetual youth, no longer wishes to be magically forever young.

 

The Healed hatchy becomes an adult instantly and cannot be traded.

 

The counter-spell to the Freeze spell is very powerful, and requires a month for the combined power of even multiple Whites on a scroll (although a single one can do it) to regenerate to the point where the spell could be again passed, should it be required.

 

 

 

Once a month, per scroll, one carefully selected dragon with a youth spell applied in a year previous to the current year, can have that spell lifted to become instantly adult, using one effective spell cast by any and all Whites (or whichever magical dragon) on the scroll with no ill effects - but far too paced to give any great advantage or ability to cheat to any person wishing to use it on any older dragon they would not have Frozen if they'd known circumstances would change as they have.

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I think what Syphoneira posted is pretty reasonable. My only concern is having it tied to the Heal bsa, which seems like it would limit that bsa to once a month?

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I think what Syphoneira posted is pretty reasonable. My only concern is having it tied to the Heal bsa, which seems like it would limit that bsa to once a month?

Yah, I'd rather the Heal BSA (if we, y'know, ever actually get it T___T) be usable all the time for sick things. Since we were the ones who cast the freezing spell, I still don't think it'd be too out of place for us to be the ones who remove it. It'd be just a standard action on every frozen's page (provided they've been frozen for x amount of time), and would have maybe a limit of one per month or so.

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I think what Syphoneira posted is pretty reasonable. My only concern is having it tied to the Heal bsa, which seems like it would limit that bsa to once a month?

I can so live with not being able to unfreeze anything more than once a month. What's the rush.

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I'm still not in favour of the idea, but unfrozen hatchlings being tradable is something that would make me a lot more comfortable.

 

I'm not sure if them being unbreedable as well is necessary (since being untradable sounds like enough of a magical backfiring thingy) and without some kind of marker on their page, it might get complicated with people not understanding why their dragons are suddenly unable to breed. But I'm not against the idea either, if that's something that can be smoothed out. Since I definitely like Thuban's point that magic isn't always accurate and there can be side effects.

 

I'd still prefer if this just didn't happen at all, though. tongue.gif

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