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LibbyLishly

Unfreezing

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A possible, and simple, go-forward solution to that would be to add a "Frozen on" date to all future frozen's view pages, and allow past frozens to be unfrozen a year from their hatch date.

 

It really does start adding layers of complication to the overall suggestion - though no more than a million different complications in the forms of fail rates, BSAs, etc. etc. etc.

Edited by LibbyLishly
Grammar fix, extra thought

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Alternatively, if a time-based restriction is really needed, instead of having so narrow a window and since you can only freeze at max a week or two after a dragon is born, have two weeks or a month of unfreezing time centered around the dragon's born date.

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OP updated and TITLE CHANGED. I think sometimes posters just read the question "Should freezing be permanent?" and decide to just answer that rather than reading the OP and offering thoughts based on the enormous amount of discussion we've already had. I think we've developed this idea far past the original question at this point.

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On 1/1/2014 at 4:24 PM, LibbyLishly said:

Concern: OMG THE RATIOS!?!?!!

As far as I know, only player-owned dragons from the past year (aka 12 months) count towards the ratios.

Wild dragons don't count.

Older dragons don't count anymore.

Additionally, I *think* frozens count as well as adults, so there would be no actual change in numbers.

 

If I'm wrong and frozens do not count, a solution to this would actually be the same that had already been proposed for one of the other concerns:

Allow unfreeze only for hatchlings that are at least a year old. That way, the newly-grownup individual wouldn't count for ratios anymore, only their future offspring which then depends on the same breeding result rules as any other adult of that breed.

 

- Currently, I think I may have about half a dozen old freezies I'd like to unfreeze, so I think I would be fine with the proposed limitation of 6 or 12 unfreezes a year.

- I wouldn't mind if the little was was unfrozen with a 7-day timer (and scroll-locked like a CB Prize, of course). Would it then be un-refreezable?

 

(Wow, that's a long opening post. I hope I didn't forget anything I wanted to comment on while reading the rest ...)

Edited by Ruby Eyes

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I am not to worried about ratios, I figure some people will unfreeze others will not, it is unlikely everyone will do this on the same day or even month. The game might see some spikes sure but the game will adjust for that, in the long run it will all self correct. 

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@Ruby Eyes @maratrekkan

4 years ago, when I started this thread, it seemed like the first thing everyone panicked over in suggestions was how they would affect "The Ratios". I haven't really seen those concerns coming up much since coming back this year - thank goodness.

Edited by LibbyLishly
Grammar fix

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Since back then, Frills and Old Pinks aren't an issue anymore either :D I just went through the OP and this was still mentioned ;) so I added my tiny bit of knowledge on it.

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Very true, neither of the formerly retired breeds are an issue. Seasonals, Special Release dragons and other time-based dragons should only be unfreezable during their respective times (Seasonals during their seasons, Holiday Releases during their respective breeding window or their respective holiday drop (or both, to make things as simple as possible). I'm not sure if the same measures are needed for other time-based breeds (sunsrise/sunset, glory drakes, lunar heralds, dark/light luminas, rosy/blue-winged solstices), but I'd say that those distinctions don't matter as much since they're pretty much available year-round - or, in case of the solstices, during their respective breeding window. Having to wait for the correct time to unfreeze for rosies/blues seems like too much IMHO.

 

Now, time to unfreeze: I'd suggest either one year or 13 months, at TJ's discretion.

 

Limits: Maybe one unfreeze each month (on the calendar, so you don't have to keep track of when, exactly, you can unfreeze again). That should suffice to undo the worst mistakes ASAP and before it really counts, but still prevent unfreezing from being exploited (freeze hatchlings to unlock your scroll, unfreeze later). No other limits are needed. No chance of failure, please! Because some people really want to undo past mistakes, and shouldn't have to jump through hoops in order to accomplish that.

 

I still think that Undead Dragons (Zombies) should not be unfreezable, though. After all, Zombie hatchlings can be created without using up your kill slots, so this might be another situation where unfreezing could be exploited.

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Undeads don't grow (supposedly, if you ignore the accidental genderings ...) so they shouldn't be unfreezable anyway.

 

18 minutes ago, olympe said:

Seasonals, Special Release dragons and other time-based dragons should only be unfreezable during their respective times (Seasonals during their seasons, Holiday Releases during their respective breeding window or their respective holiday drop (or both, to make things as simple as possible).

That doesn't make it simple, that makes it way more complicated than it needs to be. :blink: Sounds unnecessary to me, especially with the limits proposed.

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All right, OP has been updated (and do please let me know if you notice any outdated information up there that I missed). I've added the time-based limitations and zombie note under the label "Currently being discussed". 

Edited by LibbyLishly

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I do believe in keeping it simple as possible. That is less work for the programming end. Button option or BSA both good as far as I am concerned. I am okay with no failure rate too... despite my break down of options on that.

 

If there is a period of time each hatchling must stay frozen after being freezed than I am unsure what the abuse would be in reality... It takes X number of days for a dragon to mature (6ish) so if the hatchling has to stay locked in frozen status for 1 year for instance before it can be unfrozen... in theory it took one year to mature, it people hate that then the hatchling should just unfreeze as is and start maturing from when it was frozen as that is logical. 

 

Limits to how often are okay too, but people will want those removed pretty quick too I am guessing unless they make sense. If it is just something a keeper can do than it should be equal to the freeze limits. If it is BSA than a cool down to limit use.

 

I am in favor of someway to unfreeze as simply a new dynamic to enhance play options for people. 

 

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40 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

1 year to unfreeze. Instant adults. ;3;

This is definitely my personal preference due to its pure simplicity. 

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The problem with unlimited unfreezing or unfreezing at the same limit as freezing is during holidays, when all of us holiday hunters are constantly scroll-locked or hatchie-locked. If you want to abuse the unfreezing feature, you can simply freeze the first 16 of your holiday hatchlings and unfreeze them in time for next year's breeding season - for each of the three holidays. Meaning that, over a year, you get 48 extra holidays over someone who doesn't abuse the freeze-unfreeze-loophole. (Hell, even I'd start freezing without these limits - and I haven't got a single frozen hatchling on my scroll!)

Now, with an unfreezing limit like 12/year, this number is drastically reduced, yet allows for undoing your worst mistakes at once. Seems like a good idea, if you ask me.

 

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21 minutes ago, olympe said:

The problem with unlimited unfreezing or unfreezing at the same limit as freezing is during holidays, when all of us holiday hunters are constantly scroll-locked or hatchie-locked. If you want to abuse the unfreezing feature, you can simply freeze the first 16 of your holiday hatchlings and unfreeze them in time for next year's breeding season - for each of the three holidays. Meaning that, over a year, you get 48 extra holidays over someone who doesn't abuse the freeze-unfreeze-loophole. (Hell, even I'd start freezing without these limits - and I haven't got a single frozen hatchling on my scroll!)

Now, with an unfreezing limit like 12/year, this number is drastically reduced, yet allows for undoing your worst mistakes at once. Seems like a good idea, if you ask me.

 

 

That is a good point, although I don't think an unfreezing limit is the only way to counter it. What if unfrozen insta-adults were unable to breed for one week after they became an adult? Lore-wise, they've just had this really intense spell lifted, so maybe they aren't up to breeding right away. That should take care of the holiday issue, since you wouldn't be able to unfreeze holiday hatchies exactly 1 year later and then still be able to breed holidays out of them after a full week.

 

I don't mind an unfreezing limit, but I think concerns can be addressed without limiting it so drastically as 12 a year.

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24 minutes ago, olympe said:

The problem with unlimited unfreezing or unfreezing at the same limit as freezing is during holidays, when all of us holiday hunters are constantly scroll-locked or hatchie-locked. If you want to abuse the unfreezing feature, you can simply freeze the first 16 of your holiday hatchlings and unfreeze them in time for next year's breeding season - for each of the three holidays. Meaning that, over a year, you get 48 extra holidays over someone who doesn't abuse the freeze-unfreeze-loophole. (Hell, even I'd start freezing without these limits - and I haven't got a single frozen hatchling on my scroll!)

Now, with an unfreezing limit like 12/year, this number is drastically reduced, yet allows for undoing your worst mistakes at once. Seems like a good idea, if you ask me.

 

 

Then instead of a year make it a year + 1 week. So you COULD do that, but you’d be sacrificing an entire breeding season.

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In the end, you'd still get 48 extras, though. For someone invested in DC long-term, it's still a very good trade-off, and I'd still use the loophole to maximum effect.

 

What else would you need 18 unfreezes/2 weeks = 468 unfreezes/year?

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I am okay with an overall limit for the year. It is a good point it could be abused as you outlined olympe. 

 

Recap & thoughts... player wish list...

 

So something simple, I think not having it be a BSA would be best in this case as it would be the easiest way to program it as simply a feature the Dragon Keeper can do like freezing.

 

I don’t think anyone is too freaked out about ratios anymore. So no worries there.

 

No death, no running away, no failure try again risks is preferred.

 

The next main debate as best I can sort would then be hatchling matures to adult upon unfreezing vs hatchling once unfrozen begins to mature naturally. I am okay with either myself, the adult option has obvious advantages for the individual unfreezing while the mature as normal means they must have a hatchling slot open before the game will let them unfreeze which has game balance pro but probably a slightly more difficult programming... but the default message of you would be overburdened could still be used, so the programming tweaks hopefully would not be too hard (I have not dealt with programming codes in years disclaimer).

 

The other thing open to the I don’t know, is the how soon after freezing can one be unfrozen? We probably need this to prevent abuse during the holidays or other times of the year. 

 

Limits to use vs adult dragon once unfrozen can’t breed till X time has passed. I like the second option best and maybe the programming will prevent Holiday breeding abuse anyway? I am not sure how it is coded but if it is based on when the hatchling matures to adult date when the block out occurs it might not even need a fix... in other words that Holiday Dragon hatchling you froze in 2009 matured 2018 and the game might not let it breed in 2018 until after it’s 2018 appropriate holiday period has passed... not sure how it is programmed but if it is set up like that for the Holidays then the Holidays will not be able to be abused. 

 

 

 

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On 1/1/2014 at 10:24 AM, LibbyLishly said:

 

Unfreeze would be a scroll action that would:

1. Be unavailable for a year after a hatchling is initially frozen OR be available scroll-wide once a month/every 31 days 

2. Cause the hatchling to grow up right away OR cause the hatchling to be locked to the user's scroll (untradeable) and reset its timer to 7 days.

 

ALTERNATIVELY:

- 12 unfreezes a year / 53 week cool down after you freeze

OR

- 6 a year / no cool down after you freeze

Either way, unfrozen hatchlings instantly grow up

 

ALTERNATIVELY AGAIN:

 

Quote

...most of the hatchling limits problems come during the three holiday breeding weeks. As long as there are enough unfreezes available over the rest of the year to unfreeze from those three weeks people would be free to abuse it in that fashion. Lowering the number of unfreezes to make that unfeasible would mean that people who really do have old freezing mistakes would be left frustrated. About all I can think is a combination. A really low number per year (like 5?) for anything younger than a year (hopefully you're not making a habit of absentmindedly freezing things), unlimited unfreezes for older things

 

These are the main limitations listed in the OP. Is there an overall preference for which pieces we want most? 

 

The moving parts are:

 

- Instagrow vs 7 day timer (locked to scroll)

 

- Year-long (or 53 week) cooldown per frozen dragon vs 1 scroll-wide unfreeze every month or 60 days

 

- Some complicated compromise like anniversary unfreezing, unlimited unfreezing on anything older than a year but limits on anything younger, or the other thread suggestion of a same-breed freeze swap - oh, or prevention of using for breeding or BSA for a period of time

 

Thoughts? Preferences? These are the things that we keep coming back to, so we might as well focus on getting a consensus on them.

Edited by LibbyLishly

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I vote towards the 1 unfreeze every X number of days, that allows for mistakes to be undone quickly enough, prevents abuse as well and allows players who purposely froze back in the day to reintroduction over time.

 

I am more pro hatchling has to mature normally.

 

The complicated compromises are too complicated mostly.

 

Edited by maratrekkan

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Let's see. Unlimited bred Winter Holiday / Valentine dragons were introduced at the end fo 2013. Before then, we had the following releases that could have been frozen as CB:

Holly - as they had an original scroll limit of 1, I doubt that anyone froze a CB, though...

Yulebuck

Val '09

Snow Angel

Sweetling

Ribbon Dancer

Rosebud

Winter Magi

Heartseeker

Wrapping Wings

Radiant Angel

 

That's 10, maybe 11 hatchlings (2nd gen holly from after the initial release?) that I'd be willing to count as "emergency unfreezes" to undo something done because the rules were different back then. A limit of 1/month or 12/year would cover that quite nicely, don't you think? So, I'd vote for 12/year overall.

 

Instant adult vs. growing hatchling doesn't really make much of a difference, really. Especially not with the yearly limit being as low as it is. I'd suggest instant adults to keep things simpler (no abandoning/teleporting for unfrozen growing hatchlings, whichever other things you'd have in mind.)

 

Regarding how unfreezes are counted - why not have an upper limit of 12, where they are recovered one on every first of a month? Easy to remember without having to check dates all the time, and keeps the limit simple. (Yes, there's some additional unfreezing possible at the beginning - but that's a good thing, considering what unfreezing is supposed to accomplish. It won't break anyone's game if the first year offers up to 24 unfreezes because nobody will have had a chance yet to stock up on frozens in the first place.) 

 

Also, with the 12/year limit, I don't think we really need to wait a year to unfreeze a hatchling. Because 12 really isn't that big of a number overall. (Although I'm not opposed to waiting a year or so, either.)

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OKAY

 

Unfreeze has a 30 day cooldown (= 12 unfreeze / year). Instant adults. ;3;

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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Anything that offers instant adults would be greatly preferred, honestly, and either [year+week] or [once/30 days] is fine by me.

 

I'm mostly interested in seeing this implemented, which is why I'm willing it hear other suggestions out, but I do feel like the simpler versions are better.
 

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I'm curious- has instant adult been considered as a way to jump over the scroll limits of having too many hatchlings? You could freeze a just-hatched hatchling, then unfreeze for an adult.

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