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LibbyLishly

Unfreezing

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I understand that. But my argument has to do with already frozen things. When you froze them there was no reason to think you could ever change that, so why the sudden need to break the whole system of freezing?

 

I want to know what the compelling need is to change something that has been part of the game since day 1 (as far as I know). I am not against change in all its forms, but I do feel like a change this game-changing should have some very good argument in its favor and I haven't seen that.

 

I'd still find this suggestion valuable even if all past frozen dragons were exempt, though it seems like a shame to me. But if it helps form a consensus, by all means.

 

Regarding 'part of the game since day 1' - I'm fairly sure the suggesting to have the ability to unfreeze things has been around that long, as well. smile.gif This isn't a sudden new idea, really; it's always been around, there's just rekindled interest in it because the lifted holiday limit has exposed the underlying problem - that circumstances in the game change, and people make decisions based on incorrect, incomplete or obsolete information, and it's strange to have a permanent action like this in a non-permanent environment.

 

"Have the foresight to imagine anything that could make you regret your choice, ever" just seems like an odd imperative.

 

But again, I'm not affected*, so I might not be the best source for arguments about this. I just see other people unhappy about something that could be changed to accommodate for their problem(s), so for me, it's admittedly the opposite situation - I need to see compelling reasons why this shouldn't be done.

 

 

 

* (I only started freezing two months ago (or thereabouts) and I deliberately do it to neat-lineaged things because I care about the lineage of my frozens just as much as for my adults.)

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Although I'm against/still kinda doubting this unfreezing action (it's a very easy feature to be abused or to just cause troubles for others), I don't think the existence of a message in the freezing action should be a reason to refuse the change, since rules have changed many times in DC. TJ has even done things he said he never would do

 

 

 

 

 

Changes in an ability for Zombie removal and the Refusal removal for rare/rare breeding once only possible with glitches spring to mind as issues once seen as being permanently set in stone - but TJ needs to be presented with reasoned explanations consistent with the DC world concept as to how and why something should work, with potential for adverse effects stymied, for him to consider whether something's a worth-while addition/alteration.

 

Any spell laid ought to be removable by some powerful counter-spell, even if the whole (edit: scroll-full of BSA dragons using this) has to recuperate for a month afterward (edit: before recovering enough to use the ability again), and, as one example, I'd say that Whites, with their healing abilities, ought to be able to break the 'eternal youth' spell to allow the dragon to grow up and appreciate the benefits of maturity, which definitely falls under a definition of healing a dragon bespelled as locked in perpetual childhood but who has decided that the life experiences of other, mature dragons are essential to his/her happiness.

 

(Somebody should write a story on that one, lol.)

 

'... White dragons are pacifists and specialize in extremely strong healing magic. The only limit of this magic is that it can’t bring back the dead. ...'

 

 

Edit: apart from coding issues of which I have no idea, lol, I fail to see why Whites shouldn't have a multi-purpose Heal BSA which would have different effects under different circumstances, so that they could both Heal a Sick egg/hatchy and lift a spell from a Frozen one, with a month's cool-down from the latter spell-lifting, possibly with either the specific dragon or the whole batch of Whites also unable to Heal anything else for a month following.

 

 

 

The concerns seem to be: that any BSA or other mechanism enabling spell-lifting from Frozen dragons could be:

 

used for cheating to trade - the fix involving instant adulthood

 

to take more dragons and unFreeze shortly thereafter - the fix involving limited use with a scroll-wide cool-down of an as-yet undetermined period, and an unFreezing wait period on which consensus so far seems to be poised on a minimum of a month after Freezing any individual dragon.

 

This wait period could even be increased to dragons Frozen over a calender year or more, in order to enable previously Frozen Holidays and such to be un-spelled without having any concerns about its use for packing on more hatchies that we're supposed to be able to hold on our scrolls.

 

What concerns am I missing here which pertain to this specific topic?

 

 

Another edit, lol, to add: the repeated concern that anything once labelled as being permanent should never change.

 

We have had multiple changes in things which were once permanent/immutable.

 

A proposed alteration which does not adversely affect those not involved regarding something which has been previously labelled permanent does not have to be disregarded simply because of a 'permanent' warning intended to make people think prior to taking an action.

 

Other changes within the game - also altering once-immutable conditions, such as the ability to pick up (edit: bred) Holidays beyond the previous restrictions of two, in reaction to the changing circumstance of a build-up of available Holiday offspring over the years to the point where an increasing number of people were failing to breed, among other player-related issues - may create a need for compensatory change in related areas, such as the unFreezing of dragons Frozen under different circumstances.

 

This sort of 'domino/ripple effect' is hardly unusual and is one reason why each change - and potential effects stemming from it - within a complex system must be well-considered, and adverse effects minimized in dealing with further necessary adjustments down the line. smile.gif

 

 

Edit: would like to make the point that the hatchies are 'frozen in time', rather than frozen solid into ice-forms, so that I suspect that magical abilities to lift spells would be pertinent, rather than any degree of warmth possessed by the dragons involved.

 

Also that any action which could result in the death of a dragon will not be used by most people, making it as useless to many as is Earthquake, and that I don't see that immortal dragons should be so easy to kill by even powerful spells simply used to lift another spell, allowing them to grow up and enjoy the benefits of maturity.

 

If the spell-breaking power can be used only once a month, that seems to me to be limitation enough, especially with a wait period for its use on Frozen dragons which might involve those Frozen as long ago as in previous years to that current, if such a thing can be programmed in with relative ease.

Edited by Syphoneira

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I do, however miss the days when our frozen hatchlings would still gender after freezing. I know a lot of people were upset when their frozens would gender after they specifically froze them as S1, but, as I am not a sprite collector, as much as a "freeze it so I can unlock myself to hunt again" collector, most of my freezes remain S1.

I'm in this boat. I still have some original stage ones that were just way too low to ever gender. What annoys me is how hard it is to get them to gender early enough to freeze, I've had so many dragons grow up because they did so immediately after gendering....Almost rather have the ability to "youthen" adults so they can be frozen, but that's another topic.

 

I, personally, like the hatchling sprites for most dragons better than the adults, so I do have a lot of CB hatchlings including most holidays and Frills. If this was added, I might unfreeze the holidays since I could now replace them with less desirable linages, the rest, well, I did want them frozen so they'd probably stay that way. I'm not sure this is a needed feature, but I can't say I wouldn't use it if implemented. (but that also falls under being greedy I suppose: more CB holidays = more 2nd gens = better trades/less dead offspring)

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When you freeze a hatchie, its permanently. A big NO for unfreezing because its not Freezing's fault that you freeze your hatchie.

 

 

It says its PERMANENTLY before you freeze it, if you don't want to freeze a hatchie then don't do it. If you want to freeze a hatchie, then do it, but remember its permanent. No need to change that.

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When you freeze a hatchie, its permanently. A big NO for unfreezing because its not Freezing's fault that you freeze your hatchie.

 

 

It says its PERMANENTLY before you freeze it, if you don't want to freeze a hatchie then don't do it. If you want to freeze a hatchie, then do it, but remember its permanent. No need to change that.

Zombies are supposed to be permanent too. but we have expunge now to get rid of them.

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Zombies are supposed to be permanent too.  but we have expunge now to get rid of them.

They also used to permanently take up a kill slot, so a max you could have by actively killing was five. I still remember that people used to be opposed to THAT being lifted too.

Edited by Nectaris

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Zombies are supposed to be permanent too. but we have expunge now to get rid of them.

And how many people actually remember that that action is there? Because you know what? I didn't remember that until you said it.

 

Anyway, I really don't see the need for this for regular release dragons.

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And how many people actually remember that that action is there? Because you know what? I didn't remember that until you said it.

 

Anyway, I really don't see the need for this for regular release dragons.

I remember it, I just will never use it. I worked hard to get my Zombies. smile.gif

 

but that's why I'm pretty neutral on this. I'm not sure it's needed, but I might actually use unfreezing on a few if it does become a thing. whereas Expunge is just another completely useless BSA to me.

 

 

Edit: I do that now Fuzz. smile.gif probably why I get so many weird looks when I say I throw my eggs/hatchies into 10 fansites and just them all cycle in the background. lol

Edited by DragonLady86

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I really think that freezing should be permanent. It is an action, like kill and abandon, that forever changes that hatchling in relation to your scroll.

 

I do, however miss the days when our frozen hatchlings would still gender after freezing. I know a lot of people were upset when their frozens would gender after they specifically froze them as S1, but, as I am not a sprite collector, as much as a "freeze it so I can unlock myself to hunt again" collector, most of my freezes remain S1.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! I froze two long-lineaged frills after it was too late to get any more CBs - I wanted an S1 and an S2 - and the intended S1 gendered anyway. I am still deeply sad about that. No no no !

 

If you want an S2 and don't want to wait - blitz the S1 till it genders - not so hard !

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Crap. Suddenly I might have a stake in the game after all, because I just summoned my second GoN egg. How... timely.

 

How is this relevant? Well, I've planned since day 1 that I would let my first GoN grow up (which I did) and freeze the second one as an S2 hatchie. Recently, a discussion has popped up suggesting that GoNs be able to breed. If that eventually becomes so, then I'm going to regret freezing this hatchling. However, I'm probably still going to do it, because there's no way to know for sure if the suggestion will go through or how it will be implemented and I want the hatchling sprite, and I'm just going to have to suck it up if it turns out I shouldn't have frozen it after all. For those who summoned both before breeding was even suggested, it sucks even more, because they made their decision without all the information.

 

Sometimes things that were once permanent need to change based on other elements of the game that have changed. The permanent limit on Christmas and Valentines dragons was 2. That changed. The limit on GoNs is currently 2, and they cannot be used in lineages. That may not change. Just because something is 'permanent' now does not mean it might not be better to not be permanent in the future. Zombies are a great example of that.

 

Maybe freezing should remain permanent regardless of the changes that are currently taking place, or maybe it is something that should be considered flawed and so altered. The game is a holistic one, and every change made may necessitate others. But that's kind of the beauty of it, because the game can keep growing and keep improving based on the needs of its users.

 

If I may mention in as non-modlike a manner as possible since I am not a mod and do not want to be one, arguments such as "It's permanent because it says it's permanent" and "Don't freeze if you don't want it to be permanent" don't really help the discussion along. Yes, it's permanent, and we all know it's permanent. The question is, should it be permanent, or should that change based on new situations in the game that were not previously the case?

 

Editing the top post again.

Edited by LibbyLishly

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If we're the ones who cast the spell, we should probably be the ones who reverse the spell. If not us, at least some form of magical dragon. The only thing frozen here is time, so I don't think the average fire breather is gonna cut it for an unfreezing BSA.

 

The reason freezing is permanent isn't because the idea of changing past regrets is unthinkable. It's because, as has probably been mentioned, being able to freeze and unfreeze as we wish allows people to skip around egg limits, glutting unfairly on new releases or rares or holding on to limited time things so they can charge high amounts for them later.

 

Accordingly, for this to work, I feel there needs to be a major cooldown period before unfreezing can happen, and that anything unfrozen instantly matures. This would make people really hesitate before freezing things they don't want to keep frozen (is being able to snag one more egg right this second really worth making that Gold unusable for months on end?) and prevent people from abusing the trade market with discontinueds. In the meantime, it would allow people who genuinely regret freezing (because of accidental freezing, freezing before a rule change, whatever) to in time reverse it.

 

If some time of RP logic is needed here (although really, so much of DC is illogical anyway!) it could be that either a lot of time is needed to unwork the magic or to change the mage's heart so they'll reverse it at all, and then once that spell is lifted all the dragon's lost time immediately comes rushing back.

 

 

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Personally, I think it should stay as is. From the very beginning, freezing hasn't only been done to keep hatchling sprites on one's scroll, but also to circumvent scroll limits. Especially before "the change".

 

 

However, if it does get changed, I'd like to see several kinds of restrictions:

  • If a hatchling is unfrozen, it should be returned to the timing it used to have when frozen. If that's impossible, it should be returned to the stage of having 7 days left to live. Why? In order to make it impossible for people to actually cheat scroll limits by freezing and later unfreezing to get instant-adults.
  • Unfrozen hatchlings must be untradable. Like GoNs. Most important restriction of all, really.
  • The number of unfreezes needs to be limited scroll-wide. Whether these limits are implemented as "unfreezing slots" similar to freezing slots or kill slots, or whether it's supposed to become a BSA that gets a scroll-wide cooldown (like Summon) doesn't really matter. (If it's supposed to become a BSA - whites with their strong healing magic could do that. Maybe some whites see that there's something wrong with this hatchling not growing up, and "heal" it from that condition by combining their healing magic.)

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If we're the ones who cast the spell, we should probably be the ones who reverse the spell. If not us, at least some form of magical dragon. The only thing frozen here is time, so I don't think the average fire breather is gonna cut it for an unfreezing BSA.

 

The reason freezing is permanent isn't because the idea of changing past regrets is unthinkable. It's because, as has probably been mentioned, being able to freeze and unfreeze as we wish allows people to skip around egg limits, glutting unfairly on new releases or rares or holding on to limited time things so they can charge high amounts for them later.

 

Accordingly, for this to work, I feel there needs to be a major cooldown period before unfreezing can happen, and that anything unfrozen instantly matures. This would make people really hesitate before freezing things they don't want to keep frozen (is being able to snag one more egg right this second really worth making that Gold unusable for months on end?) and prevent people from abusing the trade market with discontinueds. In the meantime, it would allow people who genuinely regret freezing (because of accidental freezing, freezing before a rule change, whatever) to in time reverse it.

 

If some time of RP logic is needed here (although really, so much of DC is illogical anyway!) it could be that either a lot of time is needed to unwork the magic or to change the mage's heart so they'll reverse it at all, and then once that spell is lifted all the dragon's lost time immediately comes rushing back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*applauds*

 

 

Since this is actually in reference to altered circumstances affecting Freezings occurring long ago, perhaps objections could be overcome by making it apply only to dragons Frozen in previous calendar years, if coding could do this?

 

An option of lifting one Freezing spell a month on dragons Frozen in a previous year could hardly affect regular game-play or anything/anyone else, with the dragon auto-adulting as the spell lifts.

 

 

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I'm defiantly for the needs to grow up immediately. I would also be okay with both having to wait so much time before trying and having it take up a slot for x days after. As, something that I feel is only going to be useful to a small number of people (like expunge or even earthquake) both are quite reasonable handicaps to keep it from being abused.

 

However, I remember a previous discussion of this topic, one of the problems was coding. The site believes the dragon's timer for growing up ended...however long ago... so unfreezing it means it is now dead because the timer has run out.

 

I'm assuming that may not be an issue given the state of zombies for Halloween this past year. I revived several hatchlings that had died from lack of time. Even the 2 that came back to life did so with an error saying they had 1200 some days to grow up. It only lasted a few minutes but it was enough time to freeze them so they wouldn't die again.

 

So, real question: is this possible due to above possible issue or...?

 

 

Edit: grammar fail

Edited by DragonLady86

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If a hatchling is unfrozen, it should be returned to the timing it used to have when frozen. If that's impossible, it should be returned to the stage of having 7 days left to live.

I wouldn't mind this either. Between this + a long cooldown for unfreezing + making it so they can't be traded, it really should ward off just about all attempts to abuse the system (and even those who try won't get much bang for their buck).

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I must admit, I actually like this suggestion better than the one-time only holiday unfreeze suggestion. (I'm still not terribly fond of it, but find it acceptable.) Go figure. Maybe because it doesn't solely focus on holiday dragons, which most people deem valuable, but on what the scroll-owner deems valuable enough to unfreeze.

 

Also, regarding the freezing notice:

Permanently prevent the hatchling from maturing into an adult. You may use this action 16 more times in the next two weeks.
Permanently can be taken as merely meaning that this action doesn't need to be repeated every other week (or so) in order to keep the hatchling from maturing. It doesn't necessary mean that it shouldn't be undone, even though that has been the case thus far.

 

However, I remember a previous discussion of this topic, one of the problems was coding. The site believes the dragon's timer for growing up ended...however long ago... so unfreezing it means it is now dead because the timer has run out.
Well, it is possible to revive hatchlings that have run out of time. They even get some time - was it a day or two? - added to their timer. So, in essence, unfreezing could be coded in a similar way.

 

If a hatchling is unfrozen, it should be returned to the timing it used to have when frozen. If that's impossible, it should be returned to the stage of having 7 days left to live.
I wouldn't mind this either. Between this + a long cooldown for unfreezing + making it so they can't be traded, it really should ward off just about all attempts to abuse the system (and even those who try won't get much bang for their buck).
With that kind of scenario, you wouldn't even need as much of a cooldown, actually. Because the problem of "cheating" scroll limits does get solved directly. Sure, people could grab new releases at a faster rate - but new releases don't mass-drop long enough for that to matter much, to be honest. Plus, new releases aren't available as almost incu-hatchable eggs in the AP, so this probably wouldn't come up anyway. (I guess the current scroll limits are designed perfectly this way.)

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I don't mind if they are tradeable. I would at least like to see something like a Spring Thaw event, a time frame a la zombies where it can be done(undone) at least once a year.

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I don't mind if they are tradeable. I would at least like to see something like a Spring Thaw event, a time frame a la zombies where it can be done(undone) at least once a year.

That's an idea that hasn't been suggested here yet. Adding it to the top post.

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That's an idea that hasn't been suggested here yet. Adding it to the top post.

That's probably because most people on the forums know that "freezing" (on DC) doesn't have anything to do with cold. TJ has told us so repeatedly. So, a "Spring Thaw Event" would be kind of, well, illogical.

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That's probably because most people on the forums know that "freezing" (on DC) doesn't have anything to do with cold. TJ has told us so repeatedly. So, a "Spring Thaw Event" would be kind of, well, illogical.

Not calling it "Spring Thaw" in the top post since that opens a whole other can of worms that are largely irrelevant. laugh.gif Just referencing a once-a-year event with a higher possibility of unfreezing, much like reviving Zombies.

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Not calling it "Spring Thaw" in the top post since that opens a whole other can of worms that are largely irrelevant. laugh.gif Just referencing a once-a-year event with a higher possibility of unfreezing, much like reviving Zombies.

Indeed. It could use the same snowflake graphic that absolutely doesn't mean cold, but with a circle and bar through it xd.png

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I am against any sort of unfreezing.

 

No matter what mechanic you come up with to implement the unfreezing, it would be exploited. Unfreezing as a BSA? Collect 300 of the BSA dragon. Unfreezing to be insta-adults? Exploit that for effectively more growing things slots when you're locked. Unfreezing as a time-locked ability (like freezing is or killing is)? Exploit appropriately over time (which is fine, since most of us who care are members of DC for years and years). Also, people will start petitioning for the limit to be raised, just like they do for the freezing limits.

 

Personally, I don't freeze dragons. This isn't because I don't want the sprites - it is a choice I made about my playstyle, giving up collecting all the sprites to avoid wishing my frozens were breedable. The interesting thing about games like this is that you have to make choices. If unfreezing becomes implemented, I would feel like a large component of my playstyle becomes invalidated and an interesting choice in the game (on either a playstyle level or an individual dragon level) becomes nullified.

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I don't mind if they are tradeable. I would at least like to see something like a Spring Thaw event, a time frame a la zombies where it can be done(undone) at least once a year.

Could you imagine the price that these would trade for, if we could unfreeze and trade them away?

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/PFGk

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/Bg83

 

Even a messy old pink would command a lot. It is my only old pink frozen hatchling, but I have 46 frozen frills.

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General consensus as of second page: If some sort of unfreezing is to be enacted, it must have the following limitations:

1. Cause hatchlings to grow up immediately or to be otherwise untradeable

2. A limit on unfreezing with 'slots' or a lengthy, scroll-wide coolddown after each use (RP reasoning: to help the scroll recover from the magical reversal of such a powerful spell)

3. Other limitations to prevent insta-adult, insta-available-egg/hatchling slot, and insta-breed ability on newly hatched and frozen hatchlings, such as having the unfrozen dragon take up an egg or hatchie slot with either its original growth timer restored or the full 7 days added to the count.

Instead of going through the whole thing all again (I'm so tired of debating this suggestion), I'll address this part of the OP. Specifically, the fact that I am in *complete support* of this suggestion *with* these limitations.

 

#1 would completely get rid of the complaint that people could just freeze as they please, and then unfreeze if they later find a good trade or something.

 

#2 makes perfect sense in an RP manner, and helps prevent the "freeze-grab-freeze-grab" abuse that some people talk about.

 

#3 (reasons stated in 2) I don't think something as long as 7 days is needed though. It seems it would be good enough to enforce the killed-dragon rule onto frozen hatchlings; If you unfreeze-adult a dragon, it counts in your limits for 24 hours. That seems fair enough; 7 days seems a bit overkill.

 

Lavinia, every exploitation you mention has already been dealt with by suggestions and limitations in this thread. A limit on unfreezing (just like the limit on freezing) would prevent your "300 BSA dragon" scenerio. There's already the suggestion to make insta-adults still count in your limits for a period of time, so your slots concern is taken care of. I have no idea what you mean by a "time locked" ability, and if freezing or killing does that anyways, why not something else?

 

This would not affect your playstyle in any way. You have chosen to play the way you have for your own personal reasons. Since you don't have frozen dragons, an unfreeze action would have absolutely no effect on you.

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No matter what mechanic you come up with to implement the unfreezing, it would be exploited.  Unfreezing as a BSA?  Collect 300 of the BSA dragon.  Unfreezing to be insta-adults?  Exploit that for effectively more growing things slots when you're locked.  Unfreezing as a time-locked ability (like freezing is or killing is)?  Exploit appropriately over time (which is fine, since most of us who care are members of DC for years and years).  Also, people will start petitioning for the limit to be raised, just like they do for the freezing limits.

All of those things alone could be exploited, sure, but once you start combining them I think the payoff becomes a lot less.

 

Imagine if unfreezing worked like thus:

1) Unfrozen things couldn't be traded

2) Unfrozen things still had to be raised to adulthood

3) Frozen things couldn't be unfrozen until at least a year had passed

 

Someone could still, say, freeze a bunch of rares during a new release, and save them until later to raise--but in doing so they'd be kissing goodbye to the usefulness of those rares for an entire year (or six months, if a year is too long--but I think it should be nothing less than that). They'd also lose the ability to trade them, even if they decided later on they didn't really need them any more. All that time without those dragons, all that lost potential just for a brief momentary gain, when they could've just waited a day or two for things to grow up. Remember, freezing only works for hatchlings anyway, so they'd already be pretty close to growing up--not to mention you'd have to be nearly entirely hatchling-locked to want to freeze them for more slots to begin with!

 

At that point I imagine the penalties would be far too annoying for anyone to bother using freezing for that purpose.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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