Jump to content
bbik

ANSWERED:One-Time-Only Holiday Unfreeze Option

Should users be able to unfreeze previously-limited Holidays?  

203 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

Not really. There isn't any corrupt company here; the problem are the hypocritical members. The same members who shot down ideas that wouldn't help them, but now when they are in the same boat as everybody else, well now they want an exception.

 

And you know what? I'm sick of it. I don't have anything against this idea. But, I also don't have anything against doing old events again, releasing in cave old holidays or doing something for people who released their holidays. I do have something against people who support only this idea while going "lalalala, don't care" when other suggestions are in question.

Share this post


Link to post
What are these artificial examples proving? What if I knew the elderly man murdered someone and got away on a technical, while at the same time I know a whistle blower who has inside information that proves intentional fraud on behalf of the company? I can build examples to my liking just like anybody, which makes those examples worthless.

 

Rereleasing the easter eggs for those who missed out is actually is easier than defreezing, as the code and the sprites already exist. Again - nobody up to now offered a good explanation why only one should be allowed.

Lol what? My point is that not being able to help everyone shouldn't mean you shouldn't help anyone. I don't see why you want to turn it into something more complex than that.

 

Some of the people who created those events are firmly against the re-release of those events, as I said, which turns them from the easy things they should be into complex artist's rights fests. It's not that people don't care and haven't suggested them--it's that they've run into heavy roadblocks. T___T

Share this post


Link to post
Some of the people who created those events are firmly against the re-release of those events, as I said, which turns them from the easy things they should be into complex artist's rights fests. It's not that people don't care and haven't suggested them--it's that they've run into heavy roadblocks. T___T

I said good reasons.

 

So then - my CB s2 Snow Angel was frozen as s1 and gendered while that was still possible. That has changed, too... shall I know deem it fair to ask that the S2 will be reverted to s1?

Share this post


Link to post

What are these artificial examples proving? What if I knew the elderly man murdered someone and got away on a technical, while at the same time I know a whistle blower who has inside information that proves intentional fraud on behalf of the company? I can build examples to my liking just like anybody, which makes those examples worthless.

 

Rereleasing the easter eggs for those who missed out is actually is easier than defreezing, as the code and the sprites already exist. Again - nobody up to now offered a good explanation why only one should be allowed.

Examples aren't proving anything for God's sake. They are examples that explain a situation.

 

A website has a database. A database has tables. These tables probably contain items. These items are the dragons and their informations. Each dragon probably has an attribute (boolean) "FROZEN" that can be yes/no or 1/0 or frozen/unfrozen. Knowing TJ's abilities, it probably takes him one database update to update the value. It will be basically a copy-pasta of the freezing ability. Not difficult either.

 

Well, at least I didn't say only one should be allowed. But these are two different things, releasing a dragon again vs unfreezing one in our scrolls. If you want to discuss re-releases, create a topic on it. They might be related but the title to this is "One-time only unfreeze option" not "unfreezing + re-releasing". And I'm in favor of re-releases, so that's not my problem either. And as you see there are people in favor of unfreezing and against re-releases as well as people in favor of both. So why not create two topics for these things instead of fighting each other over other suggestions in the same thread?

Edited by LaHaine

Share this post


Link to post

I said good reasons.

 

So then - my CB s2 Snow Angel was frozen as s1 and gendered while that was still possible. That has changed, too... shall I know deem it fair to ask that the S2 will be reverted to s1?

...The creators of the events being against their re-release isn't a good reason?

 

It sounds like there was a page at one point that would allow just that (someone back me up on this?). At any rate, I certainly wouldn't mind you creating a suggestion for it...

 

...But wasn't my whole point that not everything is fixable =/= nothing should be fixed?

 

Circular topics, circular topics... OTL

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

Share this post


Link to post
...The creators of the events being against their re-release isn't a good reason?

No, it's a selfish reason because the reasons given were - in my opinion - silly.

 

Well, at least I didn't say only one should be allowed. But these are two different things, releasing a dragon again vs unfreezing one in our scrolls. If you want to discuss re-releases, create a topic on it.

The basic decision would be the same - allow something that currently is impossible with the current rule set. Why allow one and not the other.

Share this post


Link to post
No, it's a selfish reason because the reasons given were - in my opinion - silly.

 

 

The basic decision would be the same - allow something that currently is impossible with the current rule set. Why allow one and not the other.

Heh, I'm inclined to agree--but the fact of the matter is that TJ risks alienating the artists the site relies on if he does it, so there's that.

 

Nobody's saying not to suggest it? We're saying here's not the place to bring it up.

Share this post


Link to post

No, it's a selfish reason because the reasons given were - in my opinion - silly.

 

 

The basic decision would be the same - allow something that currently is impossible with the current rule set. Why allow one and not the other.

It's not the same. It's implementing an unfreezing action vs Releasing old dragons.

When another website implemented unfreezing, there was no drama about releasing old dragons.

 

If you want to make those associations: Then why was it possible to hoard Halloween dragons and not valentines or christmases before? It's the same concept. Now it's possible to hoard christmases too! So if this one-time only unfreezing is implemented, maybe re-releases can happen too. One does not stop the other as well as one does not imply the other

 

edit:

 

And there are people against both things. People in favor of both. And people in favor of one and against the other. So they are two different suggestions with two different possible outcomes

Edited by LaHaine

Share this post


Link to post

I said good reasons.

 

So then - my CB s2 Snow Angel was frozen as s1 and gendered while that was still possible. That has changed, too... shall I know deem it fair to ask that the S2 will be reverted to s1?

 

 

 

I'd rather thought that there was something being considered regarding this situation?

 

Was the suggestion dropped?

 

 

 

More generally:

 

If we stick to the one suggestion for which this thread exists, the easiest one, and the one for which a similar precedent exists:

 

that of allowing people to have a spell removed which was emplaced under different circumstances, (and which I believe is not generally removable specifically in order to prevent chronic abuse because of the potential of making more scroll room on a temporary basis, which does not apply here,)

 

we're more likely to have this suggestion considered, than if this devolves into a re-Release everything debate.

 

It's good that these points have been brought up, but, as others have pointed out, they should have their own thread.

 

The other issues are, as has been pointed out, generally far more complex and in many cases not possible without unanimous agreement among multiple spriters and others.

 

They need to be discussed separately.

 

Many of those supporting this, by the way, have no Frozens of this nature or any personal interests involved, and we are doing so because we like to support what seems to us to be fair and reasonable. smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post

The problem I still see is that the line of argument used to argue for a one-time-only unfreezing of holiday dragons could be used for a number of other causes. As a result, I feel that all of these causes need to be addressed.

 

And, considering what a can of worms the "my actions happened under different rules, so change the freaking rules" can open, this is a slippery slope, no matter how much of a fallacy it is. Unless TJ does draw a line somewhere, the rules will be hollowed out until DC is unrecognizable. And he - and we, as his players - should consider possible consequences.

 

 

 

If you want an unfreezing for holiday hatchlings, the next (very logical) step are people asking for unfreezing of hatchlings of retired breeds. Because, well, the rules changed, and they froze them under the impression that the rules would stay the same - and that breed always be available aplenty.

 

Now, people will ask for released adults back that were only released because of the old rules that don't apply any more. (Not to mention the unfortunate individual(s) who had an adult holiday be auto-released because they had an egg of that breed in teleport for too long.)

 

 

As a matter of fact, people are considering making unfreezing non-permanent to begin with, even though it might cause trouble with people "cheating" scroll limits by freezing their hatchlings when they desperately need more space. There's also the question of re-releasing holiday events (like Easter egg hunts or old decorating events). After all, it wouldn't harm anyone, and make many people happy. (Yes, some artists might be against their stuff being available repeatedly. Although I have to wonder why they submitted anything in the first place.) And even so, I'm sure there are artists who'd allow for their stuff to be available to newer players as well.

 

 

So, what we need is a reason why this suggestion should be favored over any of the others. Because, let's face it, most of them won't happen.

 

What's so special about a one-time unfreezing that it needs to be done, despite all the other things that might be done on the same grounds? What truly makes unfreezing of holiday dragons distinctive?

Share this post


Link to post
I said good reasons.

 

So then - my CB s2 Snow Angel was frozen as s1 and gendered while that was still possible. That has changed, too... shall I know deem it fair to ask that the S2 will be reverted to s1?

I suddenly woke up. blink.gif I have a TOTALLY messy Frill I wanted to stay frozen as s1 and it gendered. I want it put back to S1, please. Because NOW things stay at the stage you froze them Things changed, and I froze under different conditions. I want my s1 back.

 

As to that old man vs the company - you help the old man's immediate needs and then go after the company, which takes longer - and instant action wouldn't have fixed that anyway. That was NOT a good example!

Share this post


Link to post

The problem I still see is that the line of argument used to argue for a one-time-only unfreezing of holiday dragons could be used for a number of other causes. As a result, I feel that all of these causes need to be addressed.

 

And, considering what a can of worms the "my actions happened under different rules, so change the freaking rules" can open, this is a slippery slope, no matter how much of a fallacy it is. Unless TJ does draw a line somewhere, the rules will be hollowed out until DC is unrecognizable. And he - and we, as his players - should consider possible consequences.

 

 

 

If you want an unfreezing for holiday hatchlings, the next (very logical) step are people asking for unfreezing of hatchlings of retired breeds. Because, well, the rules changed, and they froze them under the impression that the rules would stay the same - and that breed always be available aplenty.

 

Now, people will ask for released adults back that were only released because of the old rules that don't apply any more. (Not to mention the unfortunate individual(s) who had an adult holiday be auto-released because they had an egg of that breed in teleport for too long.)

 

 

As a matter of fact, people are considering making unfreezing non-permanent to begin with, even though it might cause trouble with people "cheating" scroll limits by freezing their hatchlings when they desperately need more space. There's also the question of re-releasing holiday events (like Easter egg hunts or old decorating events). After all, it wouldn't harm anyone, and make many people happy. (Yes, some artists might be against their stuff being available repeatedly. Although I have to wonder why they submitted anything in the first place.) And even so, I'm sure there are artists who'd allow for their stuff to be available to newer players as well.

 

 

So, what we need is a reason why this suggestion should be favored over any of the others. Because, let's face it, most of them won't happen.

 

What's so special about a one-time unfreezing that it needs to be done, despite all the other things that might be done on the same grounds? What truly makes unfreezing of holiday dragons distinctive?

Of course those suggestions will come up. And when they come up, we can argue them.

If you guys really want to discuss this:

 

 

Retired breeds:

I'm against this because they are retired and I don't think stuff should be changed about them, specially because we don't know if TJ would need the spriters' approval or not. Maybe you can think they are related, but I respect the decision of removing them. If TJ doesn't allow for CB retireds to be asked for as HM prize, they shouldn't be an option for unfreezing either. He does however allow for CB christmases to be given to HM winners

 

 

Re-releases:

I'm in favor of these for several reasons. The main one is that many years have passed and the community exploded completely. THere are more people that missed 2009 christmas than those who missed 2013's christmas. A "THEY ARE BACK FOR MORE!" mini event would be pretty cool and I quite love it when it happens in other sites. I wouldn't mind seeing the values for Hollies dropping honestly lol

 

Unfreezing pre-limit holiday hatchlings:

I'm in favor of this. I don't see why this would bring disadvantages to anyone. The only arguments I saw against this was because we supposedly are considering this case more special than others. We are not: it's just the title/theme of the thread.

What would hurt having a few more adult Holidays? More eggs = more people with holidays

 

 

Done. If you guys really want to discuss this all, let's discuss it! But please do talk about the disadvantages of unfreezing past holidays as well, instead of saying "this feature can't be implemented because others can't as well, so let's not implement it."

Edited by LaHaine

Share this post


Link to post

-Re-releases: Dolphinsong has already said that they are against any rerelease.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=7296165

 

Besides, there's already that closed thread on the entire topic of rereleasing CBs, which to be frank, did not go down very well and has never been reopened since.

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=149367&st=0

Edited by DarkEternity

Share this post


Link to post

You could contact the other spriters and obtain permission, though that thread was a little bit more controversial than this one.

 

This thread isn't about creating any new CB dragons so you'll probably find more support for this suggestion than mass rereleasing CBs of the breeds.

Edited by DarkEternity

Share this post


Link to post

As to that old man vs the company - you help the old man's immediate needs and then go after the company, which takes longer - and instant action wouldn't have fixed that anyway. That was NOT a good example!

Whyyy is everyone getting so hung up about the old man story? The point is not being able to help everyone doesn't mean you shouldn't help those you can, not let's waste time nitpicking something while missing the point. Oy vey.

 

 

*rolls out of the thread until a TJ comment should arise*

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, people are well aware of the fact that re-releases of older holiday dragons are out. However, what I was asking about was re-releases of old holiday events or trinkets. Like the yearly trick-or-treat items or the decorating events (and items) each winter holiday or the Easter eggs of past years. Not about old dragons.

 

 

I don't know where you get your information on HM prizes, but I've seen one HM frill in a fansite. Yes, a frilled dragon. And I've seen Lythiaren, their spriter and conceptor, post (repeatedly) that, if someone values frills enough to choose one for an HM prize, she gladly allows them to do so. However, BPs have always been out of the question.

If TJ doesn't allow for CB retireds to be asked for as HM prize, they shouldn't be an option for unfreezing either. He does however allow for CB christmases to be given to HM winners

But assuming your argument wasn't flawed, TJ should allow for unfreezing of CB winter holiday dragons, but not of CB valentine dragons (even if they get the same no-limit treatment as the Christmas dragons) because they can't be chosen as HM prizes. At least if you apply the same kind of logic. blink.gif Somehow, it doesn't really make sense, does it? It just sounded good to support your cause.

Share this post


Link to post

In response to the earlier discussion:

I am not for or against this suggestion because I have nothing to gain and nothing to lose from it.

 

That being said, I'm completely against the mass rereleasing of CB Holidays but I see a small difference between unfreezing existing dragons and creating tons of brand new dragons. I am not a gigantic fan of unfreezing in general - I have nothing to unfreeze - but if it pleases people then so be it.

 

In regards to the h word and the talk of a double standard, it's kinda old news. In the suggestions forums, people change their opinions rapidly and the "... but you said" argument is a good point, but you'll also find that so many people have changed their opinions in the history of the suggestions forum that if you thought lesser of people because of what they said yesterday and what they said now, there's nobody left to respect. DC can be a small demonstration of the dark side of human nature. It can also be a small demonstration of the light side of human nature. I try not to think about it too much.

Edited by DarkEternity

Share this post


Link to post
My bad then. Sorry for my mistake.

 

And it's nice from you Pinkgothic that you are for both suggestions. That doesn't change the fact that some people aren't. And now, those people are trying to make an exception to the rules, when they are in question.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I personally would really love it if there was a periodic (say, every 2 years or so) re-release of CBs of all old holiday breeds.

 

But nevertheless, the fact that some people in this thread might not support such a suggestion shouldn't be a knock against this idea. How good/bad an idea is has nothing to do with who supports it--each idea should be evaluated on its own merits. Right now what you are doing seems very petty..."A lot of you don't like the suggestion that I like so I'm not going to support yours." Rather than evaluating the idea on its own merits which is how all ideas should be evaluated, you are coming across as vindictive because you aren't getting your way.

 

To be quite frank, given the choice between allowing users to unfreeze old holidays or having a re-release of old holidays where users could get CBs, I would actually vastly prefer the latter option, but over the years TJ hasn't budged an inch on that front so I don't think it will ever happen.

Share this post


Link to post

This is what happens when I'm sleeping? Wow.

 

Concentrating on the issue *this thread was made for* and *no other issues*:

 

Many of those supporting this, by the way, have no Frozens of this nature or any personal interests involved, and we are doing so because we like to support what seems to us to be fair and reasonable.

 

I am one of those people. I have no personal stake in this. I would not use this feature. However, I am fighting for it because I believe in it, I believe it is a fair and reasonable request made in light of game-changes.

 

I'm in favor of this. I don't see why this would bring disadvantages to anyone. The only arguments I saw against this was because we supposedly are considering this case more special than others. We are not: it's just the title/theme of the thread.

What would hurt having a few more adult Holidays? More eggs = more people with holidays

 

This. I honestly can't remember seeing any real argument against this suggestion that wasn't based on "well why can't we do blah blah then too??" or "freezing is permanent".

 

I'm not going to touch that first one with a ten-foot poll, because it doesn't belong in this thread. As for the second, that's already been discussed. Yes, we are warned that freezing is permanent.... We were also told that we'd only EVER get to have 2 holiday dragons. Doing one action *based on* limits that were set and constant for *years*, and then suddenly having those limits removed (which *no one* could have predicted when they made a freezing decision back that)... I honestly don't see any reason to *not* have a one-time unfreeze option for people who froze under rules that no longer apply.

 

It wouldn't *hurt* anyone, it wouldn't cause *harm* to the game... In fact it would *help* the game because there would be more adults to be bred. (And, if you *must* focus on lineage, yes, more CB adults to be bred.)

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, people are well aware of the fact that re-releases of older holiday dragons are out. However, what I was asking about was re-releases of old holiday events or trinkets. Like the yearly trick-or-treat items or the decorating events (and items) each winter holiday or the Easter eggs of past years. Not about old dragons.

 

 

I don't know where you get your information on HM prizes, but I've seen one HM frill in a fansite. Yes, a frilled dragon. And I've seen Lythiaren, their spriter and conceptor, post (repeatedly) that, if someone values frills enough to choose one for an HM prize, she gladly allows them to do so. However, BPs have always been out of the question.

 

But assuming your argument wasn't flawed, TJ should allow for unfreezing of CB winter holiday dragons, but not of CB valentine dragons (even if they get the same no-limit treatment as the Christmas dragons) because they can't be chosen as HM prizes.  At least if you apply the same kind of logic. blink.gif Somehow, it doesn't really make sense, does it? It just sounded good to support your cause.

I aplogize, I didn't realize you were talking about trinkets. There's a thread for that already isn't it? For TJ to allow to rebuild/redecorate our holiday stuff? But I don't know how that's related to this topic, this being about a dragon, not holiday items x.x'

 

 

I got my information by responses in last year's holiday thread. The response was always "retireds are no-no", but I apologize if that isn't the case and I was lied to or if I'm having bad memory problems.

 

 

And no, you didn't get it. I mentioned HM prizes because if TJ is so against making retired breeds available again, then I doubt he will want to touch them and I don't want to make pressure about that. Retired is retired and I respect that. But since he's more "free" about holidays, maybe he will allow unfreezing of holidays (in general, not just christmases). That coming from the fact that retireds are really no-no's. If they are finr, then disregard my argument :3

 

edit: went to confirm, frills are fine, bright pinks are not. I apologize for saying bad information!

 

 

And don't mention logic when some people are trying to justify the non-implementation of a feature with the fact that other features can't be implemented...

Edited by LaHaine

Share this post


Link to post

I don't think it is fair to shoot down this suggestion because of all the other things that people could ask for, too, if it was approved (many of which they have already asked for anyway). I think this suggestion should stand or fall on its own merits. And so should all those other ideas. But they should not be argued for in this thread, which is solely about unfreezing past holiday hatchies.

 

I do think this one has more merit than a lot of others, simply because the circumstances have changed. The rules are different now than when those hatchies were frozen.

 

I have no direct gain from this suggestion because I am not in the habit of freezing hatchies, but I think all of us who collect pretty dragons will gain from having more breeding stock in the game.

Edited by purplehaze

Share this post


Link to post

 

Concentrating on the issue *this thread was made for* and *no other issues*:

 

This. I honestly can't remember seeing any real argument against this suggestion that wasn't based on "well why can't we do blah blah then too??" or "freezing is permanent".

 

I'm not going to touch that first one with a ten-foot poll, because it doesn't belong in this thread. As for the second, that's already been discussed. Yes, we are warned that freezing is permanent.... We were also told that we'd only EVER get to have 2 holiday dragons. Doing one action *based on* limits that were set and constant for *years*, and then suddenly having those limits removed (which *no one* could have predicted when they made a freezing decision back that)... I honestly don't see any reason to *not* have a one-time unfreeze option for people who froze under rules that no longer apply.

 

It wouldn't *hurt* anyone, it wouldn't cause *harm* to the game... In fact it would *help* the game because there would be more adults to be bred. (And, if you *must* focus on lineage, yes, more CB adults to be bred.)

 

Yes - this. I have nothing to gain either - but I do actually support it. (@ ADP - I just though that was a spectacularly bad hypothetical situation. Choosing between an old man needing a hand vs a kid running out into the road with a football would have made more sense, was all !)

 

I think the big issue is how - and I still think a BSA is the way to go, as then there's no time limit for people returning after a break. Also it means you don't have to decide NOW THIS MINUTE, and I'm sure it would be easy enough to code that it only applied to holiday dragons (assuming Vals end up the same no limit) that were frozen before the limits were taken off. And if vals DON'T lose their limit in 2014, and then do later, there wouldn't have to be another special thing to unfreeze them later - they could just be added to the BSA if and when their limits are removed.

Edited by fuzzbucket

Share this post


Link to post
It wouldn't *hurt* anyone, it wouldn't cause *harm* to the game... In fact it would *help* the game because there would be more adults to be bred.

No, it doesn't hurt anyone, but it is only advantageous to a certain group. Which makes the argument that 'it's only fair to do do this' seem a little... one sided?

 

Saying 'hey this is the fair thing to do because the rules were changed' needs more to it than just that. I agree that there is nothing about this suggestion, using that reason, that makes it any more deserving of being implemented than many of the other suggestions brought up in this forum. So what makes this case more special?

Share this post


Link to post
No, it doesn't hurt anyone, but it is only advantageous to a certain group. Which makes the argument that 'it's only fair to do do this' seem a little... one sided?

 

Saying 'hey this is the fair thing to do because the rules were changed' needs more to it than just that. I agree that there is nothing about this suggestion, using that reason, that makes it any more deserving of being implemented than many of the other suggestions brought up in this forum. So what makes this case more special?

Nothing makes it more special. That's why it's a suggestion like many others. Why? Does it need to be super special in order to be implemented and not merely a convenience to all/most of the community? There are suggestions that don't benefit me and I still supported them, like people who aren't affected by this but are still supporting it. You can't make it perfect for everyone.

 

Do we compare unrelated suggestions to see which one is more valuable in order to support them?

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.