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ANSWERED:One-Time-Only Holiday Unfreeze Option

Should users be able to unfreeze previously-limited Holidays?  

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Definetly support. While I personally wouldn't use it, its exactly the kind of thing that many players WILL use.

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"But what about the old trading system/discontinueds/releases" doesn't really apply here, either. Address one topic at a time; don't shoot down an idea for any but its own merits. Most of those aren't directly comparable anyway; obviously lost things can't be replaced, because that would involve taking them from someone else; discontinueds had a warning period to let people choose what to do (at least OPs did... I think Frills did, too?); released dragons have no way of the scroll recording who they belong too originally.

It's true that this does not apply here. But the reasoning could be the very same. More frills/bright pinks/formerly released holidays to gift. Ever heard of a slippery slope?

 

Besides, at the very least since before last Christmas, it was clear from the "raise limits for holiday dragons" thread that TJ was at least considering upping the limits. As a matter of fact, I actually expected the limits to be upped last Christmas, and was disappointed it hadn't happened yet.

 

Yes, discontinueds had a warning period, as far as I know. But I also remember the drama about frills being discontinued weeks before that grace period was up.

 

 

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Eggs lost through the old trading system aren't at all the same. The old trades were not an official part of the game, just a loophole players had found and exploited. Just like an IOU now players assumed a risk in doing it. Both freezing and holiday limits were offical parts of the game when people made the decision to freeze those holidays, but since part of the rules have changed it stands to reason that people wish they could have.made different decisions.

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Part of the game is that there's no difference between CB and the messiest of lineages, either. So why should the game support unfreezing of CB or low-gen hatchies so you can replace them with messy-lineaged frozen hatchies?

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Well, no it's part of the game that a CB is different than a 12th Gen, as lineages are a part of the game. If the game wanted a CB to be indistinguishable form anything else all TJ would have to do is delete the lineage pages. It might not be an important part of the game for some, but it is for others.

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It's true that this does not apply here. But the reasoning could be the very same. More frills/bright pinks/formerly released holidays to gift. Ever heard of a slippery slope?

 

Besides, at the very least since before last Christmas, it was clear from the "raise limits for holiday dragons" thread that TJ was at least considering upping the limits. As a matter of fact, I actually expected the limits to be upped last Christmas, and was disappointed it hadn't happened yet.

 

Yes, discontinueds had a warning period, as far as I know. But I also remember the drama about frills being discontinued weeks before that grace period was up.

TJ (in this very thread) said that the slippery slope thing is a fallacy....

 

and it is, too smile.gif

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

 

But yes - I do remember the frills thing; I thought I had longer; I failed sad.gif

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The trade fodder aspect really is an issue. That's why I feel that the hatchlings should simply grow the second they are unfrozen.

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The trade fodder aspect really is an issue. That's why I feel that the hatchlings should simply grow the second they are unfrozen.

I believe that pretty much everyone who's supported this suggestion here thinks that the unfrozen holidays should grow up instantly smile.gif

 

It's the possibility to trade 2nd gens from said unfrozen CBs that bothers some people, which I personally do not understand: even if some users do get a chance to breed more 2nd gens, that won't really affect anything because they don't go for much, because people often look for swaps so a 2gen holiday:2gen holiday trade shouldn't really be a cause of concern here, and also because along with the 2nd gens that could be traded the AP would be supplied with a decent amount of those from multiclutches. So yay for more holiday dragons for everyone - isn't that exactly what you guys wanted when it came to limits and them being removed?

 

But yes, I'd agree with KageSora here: if trading 2nd gens is such a big problem, then personally I wouldn't say no if unfrozen holidays were made sterile (although I see more benefit for everyone than harm in them being breedable), I'd just like to be able to turn them into adults, like I would have done right away if there had been no limits.

Edited by ZzelaBusya

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TJ (in this very thread) said that the slippery slope thing is a fallacy....

 

and it is, too smile.gif

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

 

But yes - I do remember the frills thing; I thought I had longer; I failed sad.gif

Well, the examples here are very far-fetched and, obviously, not working.

 

But saying that the same kind of argument (rules have changed, so let's undo our actions) could be used for a number of other circumstances is not fallacy. It's fact. It could be done, and with the same amount of "right" as is done in this case. And I feel that this needs to be taken into consideration.

 

(No, I won't start the thread about frills and BP. I don't freeze at all, and don't have any BPs to begin with.)

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General you, not directed at anyone specific-

Merely curious, but if TJ said you could unfreeze the holidays on your scroll right now, but at the cost of not being able to freeze any other hatchling(s) of the same type, would you still do it?

Probably not. And I'll even take it one step farther -- I'm still seriously debating freezing one of this year's as well, just for consistency. The idea of having hatchlings of everything else, then only adults of this year's seriously irritates me. Even when we can have the full set with bred dragons now. I probably won't, because it'd be nice to have a second for potential lineages, but it wouldn't be because I want more trade value.

 

In fact, I didn't trade a single one of my (non-Holly) Christmases this year. I posted them, primarily to try and find people looking for the pairings I offered, but I didn't get a single taker. In the end, I just bred and APed all of them, and watched them get snapped up instantly. So all of you who are concerned about this being a trade issue -- don't be! There are enough of most Christmas breeds around as it is that they don't trade well. No one's trying to undercut values. The only value would be in creating lineages, and in that case, having more CB adults around would help.

 

 

...but what about CBs in the wilderness...

As for those of you who released CBs and want them back, I would suggest making a new thread, because that suggestion has enough other aspects to it as to merit an independent discussion. I would support you there. Here, I think it's irrelevant. However, until such time as the thread is made, here are my thoughts anyhow:

 

On the one hand, it wouldn't hurt anyone, it would help many, it wouldn't be a detriment to the game, trades, or anything else, and the rules did change, so sure, why not! If there's either a record, or some sort of proof (such as a mate still on the user's scroll), they may as well get them back, in this case only -- if there's not-too-complicated way to code it so that TJ doesn't have to go through manually adding each individual dragon back to a scroll.

 

On the other hand, there is a difference between frozen and released. With frozens, we remained within our two limit. Anything above the two we are only just now obtaining with this limit removal. But by asking for a released CB back, it'd be like asking for the previous limits to be raised just for you, after the fact. You get to keep the lineages you considered more important during the limit, and you get to have/keep/regain the CBs that you decided were less important -- in addition to anything above the two that you are now obtaining alongside everyone else. Considering that (most) lineages aren't too difficult to obtain anyhow, I personally wouldn't be too upset about that, but I can see it being a snag for many people.

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I personally would find this a bit unfair, but I understand others find it unfair that they froze not knowing limits would be lifted in the future. So, I'm fairly neutral, it really won't affect or hurt me if this is allowed.

 

However, I do think this is an excellent point:

 

First of all, people knew that the action was impossible to undo. When they chose to freeze one CB holiday, they knew it would be frozen and not be added to their breeding stock. Only because they can have more dragons of formerly limited breeds shouldn't really change that. Some players who prefer a frozen hatchling of every breed decided to forego a frozen holiday because of the limits. Others didn't.

 

But anyhow, people who froze their hatchlings did so knowing exactly what they were doing and what the consequences were. They can still get more adults or hatchlings now, as every other player. So, where's the problem? (Because they can't get more CB? Well, they shouldn't. Nobody can.)

 

And it really makes me lean towards no.

 

I'm okay with unfreezing in the holiday spirit, though, as I said it won't hurt me if it's allowed - but definitely not if you're only going to allow certain dragons (ie cbs) to be unfrozen. I think that definitely shows there's an "agenda" (sorry, not sure how to word this better) behind this rather than just allowing unfreezing as a sort of holiday gift for those that froze since we had limits anyway or those that froze and have now played the game a bit and realize they froze a really nice lineage they'd like to unfreeze or whatnot. So definitely no requirements on what people would be allowed to un-freeze. I think that's too controlling on gameplay when really the beauty of DC is that you can play how you want and breed what you want within the limits of the game.

 

However, if pushed, I would give a final answer of no. Limits or not, it's clearly written down when you freeze that it's a perma-action, and I agree that if people wanted that for breeding stock, they should have let it grown up. They could always release it in the future and freeze another (back when there was limits) to have the complete collection they wanted.

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It is indeed true that freezing is described as a permanent action, but we also had every reason to believe that the limits were permanent as well. It would be different if all the Holiday threads had said something like "You can only have two of this breed...for now." But they didn't. There was never any indication that the limits wouldn't be permanent. So it seems fair to me that since people froze those dragons under what-ultimately-turned-out-to-be false pretenses, it would be kind to give them a chance to unfreeze.

 

I don't think people should be able to freeze and unfreeze willy-nilly. I think it would be cool if there was only one, or maybe only a few days, per year that you could unfreeze. For example, the first day of spring. The world unthaws, so maybe it releases a special magical energy that allows our dragons to "unthaw" as well (and yes, I know they aren't *literally* frozen, but let's not be sticks-in-the-mud).

 

Yes, if someone wanted that dragon for breeding stock they could have allowed it to grow. But for some people, when faced with the prospect of only ever being able to have two, having an adult and a hatchling set is more important than having more breeding stock. But if they'd known someday they could have as many as they wanted, they'd have let it grow because they could always just freeze a messy hatchling rather than a CB or nicely lineaged one.

 

I don't think this should be limited only to CBs or 2nd gens or whatever. It's not up to us to decide how people play. People with CB or 2nd gen frozens will probably be the main ones who use this feature but it should be extended to everybody.

 

But saying that the same kind of argument (rules have changed, so let's undo our actions) could be used for a number of other circumstances is not fallacy. It's fact. It could be done, and with the same amount of "right" as is done in this case. And I feel that this needs to be taken into consideration.

 

I politely disagree. As someone else said, this suggestion should be evaluated on its own merits, not on the possibility that someone might use it as grounds for why another suggestion should be put into the game. People can be as "right" and "logical" as they want to be with whatever suggestion they make but it doesn't mean it will make it into the game just because it follows the same logic as a suggestion that did make it.

 

TJ isn't a computer or a robot. If he decides that he likes this suggestion and decides to enable it, but then later someone else uses the same logic in a different S&R thread to support a different suggestion, he's not obligated to obey that logic.

 

Example: We were given the Incubate BSA. People have been saying for years that if we have a BSA that takes a day off of an egg's time, that "logically" there ought to be a corresponding BSA that takes time off of hatchling times. We still haven't gotten it and probably won't, at least not unless someone designs a dragon that would fit such a BSA.

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it's clearly written down when you freeze that it's a perma-action

 

You mean like it was clearly written down when you catch Christmas dragons that you can only have two of that particular breed? wink.gif

 

Not to mention the desire to have breeding stock was much lower when the limits were in place, so comparing the urge now to the urge then isn't entirely fair. A lot of people have said in Site Discussion and elsewhere - many users weren't breeding their Christmas dragons at all because they knew there was a complete oversaturation with them. That problem's been removed, and with that comes an urge to make pretty lineages. smile.gif(Or, well, the urge to make pretty lineages always existed, but was stubbornly pushed aside by plenty people because it required undue amounts of effort to find someone you could gift an egg to that would then be willing to continue the line.)

 

Nonetheless - olympe's observation about CBs is right in general. If we don't acknowledge that CBs and lineaged dragons have a different value (and there are reasons one shouldn't; though there are also reasons one should (which I personally lean toward, but that's simply my opinion)), then there's no "gain" in allowing the unfreezing. The whole argument of unfreezing past dragons unfortunately falls apart when you don't acknowledge a greater worth of CBs, really, because more non-CBs can be caught in future.

 

Unlike you, though, I'm still in favour of this suggestion. smile.gif It looks like the people affected by this (a group to which I don't belong) would largely like this change; since I can't actually think of a reason they shouldn't be allowed to undo their decision (based on now-wrong information)... why not, right?

 

I'm not the jealous type (not that someone has to be to oppose this, don't get me wrong! <3); there's lots of past Christmas CBs I don't have, but! I'd still be ecstatic to know people can be happier about theirs. It's not like they're getting a CB for free, after all - they did catch it, they even still have it, it's just frozen on their scroll.

 

(I nonetheless agree there should not be a lineage limit on what can be unfrozen - CBs as well as lineaged dragons ought to be unfreezable. The motivation behind it, though, I feel can only be that CBs are more valuable for making lineages and gifting(/trading/whatever), and I do believe in consequence that most people will unfreeze CBs. Otherwise, "well, you can always get more" holds true.)

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Why not just unfreeze EVERYTHING. Simples. smile.gif

 

(MAN, that would annoy me.... xd.png)

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You mean like it was clearly written down when you catch Christmas dragons that you can only have two of that particular breed? wink.gif

Not really. Freezing mentions it is permanent, nowhere in the breed limits does it mention it's something that will never change. (And this is forum-specific, but there is a mention that un-freezing will not be done while TJ never said that with limits.) Yeah, it doesn't say "this could be changed in the future" but the wording is also not as strong as with freezing.

 

I think the previous point of breeding stock as before still stands either way, though. =)

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Nonetheless - olympe's observation about CBs is right in general. If we don't acknowledge that CBs and lineaged dragons have a different value (and there are reasons one shouldn't; though there are also reasons one should (which I personally lean toward, but that's simply my opinion)), then there's no "gain" in allowing the unfreezing. The whole argument of unfreezing past dragons unfortunately falls apart when you don't acknowledge a greater worth of CBs, really, because more non-CBs can be caught in future.

I argue that there is gain in unfreezing the frozen holidays (be they CB or otherwise--I still agree with the idea that there should be no distinction made based on lineage if an unfreezing is made possible). At least, assuming they would be fertile. If they were to be sterile, then I agree that there wouldn't be any overall gain for the playerbase and it would be entirely personal gain (such as with my personal enjoyment of having at least one pair of each dragon caught/bred on the release date).

 

It's a sudden infusion of additional breeding stock of holiday dragons which will help (though obviously not completely) balance the sudden increase in the demand for the holiday eggs. If each dragon produces at least two eggs, that's at least one egg per unfrozen dragon that breeds after being unfrozen added to the AP.

 

With the removal of the limits, obtaining previous holidays is much more difficult--as was observed by the lack of a "wall" of holiday eggs in the AP for any appreciable period of time in comparison to past Christmas releases. (At least, during the multiple times I hunted the AP)

 

This not only makes it more difficult for older players to catch more, but it also makes it harder for the newer players to obtain their first of the older breeds they missed the release of. (Or older players who missed a holiday)

 

By adding a portion of these currently frozen dragons to the existing breeding pool (as it's unlikely that all will be unfrozen or that all unfrozen ones would breed), it will help increase the chances of obtaining a holiday egg in the AP and continue to help grow holiday populations to meet the increased demand.

 

 

But for some people, when faced with the prospect of only ever being able to have two, having an adult and a hatchling set is more important than having more breeding stock.  But if they'd known someday they could have as many as they wanted, they'd have let it grow because they could always just freeze a messy hatchling rather than a CB or nicely lineaged one

This is basically the boat I'm in. I had to pick between having a second adult with the caught date being the release date on my scroll (and being able to breed more for the AP) and having as close to a complete set as the game would allow. Ultimately my need to have as many of the sprites as possible outweighed my need to have the caught-dated dragons as adults.

 

But, as I said, the suspicion that the limits would be upped or changed is why I allowed both my 2k13 V-days to become adults. If a solid "no" were to have been given on the topic, I would very likely have ended up releasing a CB and breeding a second to have one additional sprite.

 

I'm not saying that getting more trade opportunities is invalid as a reason for this suggestion. All I said is that people don't admit that this is the main reason and give all this stuff about "It will make everything flowery and rainbowy".

And again, while that may be a reason some--okay, probably many or even most--people have, not all of us have that reason.

 

If I can unfreeze my CBs, I'll have more to gift and dump into the AP for people who haven't been so lucky. It'll be one less that I need to take from the AP to grow my breeding stock so I can continue to gift and produce eggs for the AP. Though, to be fair, each egg I take from the AP will eventually spit at least one egg back into the AP each year I breed it.

 

That, and like I said, I just really have a thing about adults bred/stolen on the release dates.

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Why not just unfreeze EVERYTHING. Simples. smile.gif

 

(MAN, that would annoy me.... xd.png)

If you could unfreeze every dragon in the game then it's the ideal method to circumvent the scroll limits. Simply freeze a hatchling - it no longer counts - and unfreeze as necessary and instant adult.

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If you could unfreeze every dragon in the game then it's the ideal method to circumvent the scroll limits. Simply freeze a hatchling - it no longer counts - and unfreeze as necessary and instant adult.

I took Fuzz's post to more mean a one-time unfreeze chance that was open to ALL frozen dragons on the scroll, rather than being restricted to previously limited holiday dragons.

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If you could unfreeze every dragon in the game then it's the ideal method to circumvent the scroll limits. Simply freeze a hatchling - it no longer counts - and unfreeze as necessary and instant adult.

ohmy.gif Pictures unfreezing all my hatchies at once! My scroll would explode, lol

With the removal of the limits, obtaining previous holidays is much more difficult--as was observed by the lack of a "wall" of holiday eggs in the AP for any appreciable period of time in comparison to past Christmas releases.  (At least, during the multiple times I hunted the AP)

 

This not only makes it more difficult for older players to catch more, but it also makes it harder for the newer players to obtain their first of the older breeds they missed the release of.

I think this first year was perhaps a bit more difficult and took a bit of persistence to get nice eggs. But this year I only had 12 Christmas dragons to breed. Next year I will have 32 Christmas dragons to breed, most of them CB or nice lineages.

I imagine many other players will also have at least doubled the number of dragons they will be able to breed next year. I don't think that unfreezing hatchies will affect the breeding pool significantly, certainly not nearly as much as the simple fact that next year there will be many, many more holidays available to breed than in years past.(and taking into account that in prior years many of us simply didn't breed because our eggs died or disappeared)

Edited by Tawanda001

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The only explanation I can recall ever hearing for Freezing being permanent was to prevent people from routinely Freezing hatchies on their scrolls in order to make room for more and simply unFreezing them later, when they had space again.

 

With a one-shot option of unFreezing dragons, this doesn't apply.

 

The 'perpetual youth spell' would simply be lifted from selected dragons in a one-shot deal, with these instantly becoming adults to prevent them from being traded.

 

This doesn't seem to me to have any potential for deleterious effects on the game or uninvolved players, and might have a positive effect in increasing the breeding pool of these dragons at a time when people are (presumably, and I hope) to be able to (continue to, I hope, lol) take as many bred Holiday dragons as they want/can hold, doing away with the previous AP wall of bred Holiday overflow which discouraged so many from breeding in recent years.

 

And I honestly don't see why people shouldn't, during any such limited 'amnesty' period, be able to unFreeze any dragons they choose.

 

Why grudge a group of people a one-time shot at something that matters to them, would bring them happiness, and doesn't adversely affect the rest of us at all?

 

 

I'm just going to bring to bring this forward again, because I'm too tired to write another post, lol.

 

 

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+1

 

I was told that there would always only be TWO of each holiday. Because I loved some of the baby sprites, I froze one of my two. Now that the "there will always only be two per scroll" has been lifted. Then we do deserve an unfreezing of our holidays.

 

If the "You will only ever have two of each Holiday" can be lifted. Then the "you can never unfreeze your frozen hatchlings" can be lifted as well.

 

Of course. It would only be for holidays, and not other dragons.

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+1

 

I was told that there would always only be TWO of each holiday. Because I loved some of the baby sprites, I froze one of my two. Now that the "there will always only be two per scroll" has been lifted. Then we do deserve an unfreezing of our holidays.

 

If the "You will only ever have two of each Holiday" can be lifted. Then the "you can never unfreeze your frozen hatchlings" can be lifted as well.

 

Of course. It would only be for holidays, and not other dragons.

My thoughts exactly. I always froze one of my holiday dragons because I wanted both an adult and a hatchie on my scroll (heck, I still did it this year with the Solstice dragons just in case).

 

But with the limit removed, I would love to unfreeze all of those CBs and replace them with bred hatchies so that I have more CBs to breed next year.

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I took Fuzz's post to more mean a one-time unfreeze chance that was open to ALL frozen dragons on the scroll, rather than being restricted to previously limited holiday dragons.

And you were right - except that I took it further. All that was frozen would be unfrozen (no choice offered !!!) and those collecting frozens would have to collect them all over again.

 

On reflection I would generously allow people to choose not to unfreeze discontinued breeds... I am so KIND...

 

I have to say that I always suspected the limits would come off in the end, and until this year I have never frozen a holiday hatchling, even though in broke my heart not to have the two frozen Christmases I so much wanted ! It has never occurred to me that unfreezing would ever happen. In both cases this idea must have came from the wordings on this site - effectively highlighted by La Sock. Which says to me that there was something about the wording in the first place that I picked up on... And TJ has (several times, when it showed up in suggestions) said that unfreezing would never happen. I have never ever seen him say that holiday limits would never come off. That does indicate a difference. It's kind of worth reading what he says, at times.]

 

That said - I don't actually care one way or the other - but it would HAVE to be a one off thing like the rare x rare refusals - and what will THEN happen is that people coming back to the game after the opportunity ends will say no fair they didn't KNOW waaaaah. And we will have another huge NO FAIR thread just like this one.

 

Which is why I quite seriously said unfreeze the LOT in one fell swoop, and anyone who wants to gets the chance to refreeze anything that was previously frozen, but NOT to freeze something that wasn't frozen before. This would make anything that had instantly grown up - as they would have to - refreeze as what it was before. You'd go to your suddenly grown up dragon called Mr Ice-Cube and say Freeze again, you idiot... There'd be no limit on THIS type of freeze.

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I just want to point out some things that I feel are being overlooked.

 

We aren't actually, at least for the most part, asking for CB's to be un-frozen BECAUSE they're CB's... It's because they're the dragons caught in the first year of the release. Being a CB is just a by-product of that. If there had been several generations in a year, I would have no issue with allowing THOSE to be unfrozen too. I personally wouldn't care if we let EVERY previously frozen holiday or any of the other suggestions go ahead, purely because of the principle of the idea;

We aren't saying we should be allowed to undo an "oops" or anything like that, not really. Let's go over the basics again.

 

Back when we froze them, it was true that we knew there was no chance that we could unfreeze them... in the same way we knew we could only ever ever ever have two, and that we could never ever ever get back a released dragon. Now however, what we 'knew' has been changed.

 

We 'Knew' we could only ever have two, so some people who wanted a hatchling for scroll goals or whatever decided to freeze a CB one since they had it and didn't know if they would get a second next year- even if they did 'Know' that they'd never be able to unfreeze it. What did it matter since we could never replace it? would it REALLY be worth abandoning your scroll goal or that really cute hatchling sprite just to get two original year holidays adults?

Since that's been changed, and we essentially froze those dragons on false knowledge, so we're asking for some chance to reverse it; some kind of one-time unfreezing magic, which isn't too inconceivable considering we have zombies, vampires and teleporting. The dragon's still there, after all. The thing for users who released, though, is a different kettle of fish. When you release a dragon, it runs off into the wilderness and there's practically no way to find it again, let alone tell if it was yours. You can't get it back if you can't find it!

 

______________________________________________________-

 

Which is why I quite seriously said unfreeze the LOT in one fell swoop, and anyone who wants to gets the chance to refreeze anything that was previously frozen, but NOT to freeze something that wasn't frozen before. This would make anything that had instantly grown up - as they would have to - refreeze as what it was before. You'd go to your suddenly grown up dragon called Mr Ice-Cube and say Freeze again, you idiot... There'd be no limit on THIS type of freeze.

I was thinking about this, actually. One way it could work would be a page like the meh page which unfroze all of the holidays which fir whatever criteria ends up being used- but it also locks them to your scroll, which won't matter in the long run as they'd be frozen or grow up, but then would prevent trading. There could then be a short period in which to re-freeze any hatchies you wanted to. After that period was up, any still-unfrozen hatchlings would automatically go to adult. TO me, that makes a bit more sense than rehatchieifying them.

Edited by dracocharky

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I agree it should be a CB Christmas (and Valentine if the limits are also lifted) unfreeze only. I really don't see what's unfair about restricting it to Cave Born hatchlings, my reason being if you have a frozen bred hatchling with a lineage that you really like with no limit you can track down another/similar lineage and let it grow; where as someone with a frozen CB will never be able to get another.

 

A one time instant unfreeze for all CB Christmas/Valentine dragons (preferably including any after the the limits were lifted but before the unfreeze) with unfrozen hatchlings instantly turning into adults sounds like the best plan. But a one time user unfreeze (also insta adult) would be very good.

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