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ANSWERED:One-Time-Only Holiday Unfreeze Option

Should users be able to unfreeze previously-limited Holidays?  

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Except that it's impossible to tell if someone actually owned a dragon they claimed they released. With unfreezing, at least there's the proof on the scroll that you got them; you can't get back the dragons you released because there's no way to tell what dragon belonged to who anymore, and I don't think TJ keeps logs of actions reaching multiple years back. We're focusing on freezing because it can (relatively) easily be reversed; while it'd be nice if people could get back released Holiday dragons, and if it were possible to do I'd support it as well, I don't think it's possible at this point.

 

I'm all for having a page that unfreezes all/your choice of previously-limited holidays once.

Edited by Guillotine

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Also, if you allow unfreezes for pretty much everything, wouldn't that basically mean that freezing isn't freezing any more?

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote but this one. The ability to thaw water doesn't mean ice doesn't exist. Granted, I'm of the mindset that trading would be fine. It would be rather fascinating, though I'm sure they'd all go to people with: CB metals, prize dragons, sprite alts, neglected. But the idea of being able to hold onto a frozen hatchy and trade it a year later is interesting. Though I have no doubt it would be shot down with a vengance xd.png

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After all, before teleport was implemented, we had to do trades using the abandoned/code method. Many eggs and hatchlings got lost in trade. Yet, when teleport got implemented, there was nobody asking for their lost trades back, was there?

 

You entirely missed the point of what you quoted.

 

Not everything can be fixed =/= nothing should be fixed.

 

This is a game. Why must it be used to teach the lesson of "tough stuff, deal with it, life's not fair?"

 

This suggestion would hurt no one, in fact make quite a fair number happy, and increase the number of Holidays in the AP.

 

It feels like so many suggestions get shot down in the game not because they'd be harmful, not because they wouldn't be useful, but because people enjoy trying to turn games--things that should be fun and not have to be as annoying and frustrating as real life is--into instructors of "life sucks then you die."

 

C'mon, guys. This hurts no one and benefits many. Turning it down just because "you made a choice and should be stuck with it" when again, it's a game seems awful silly.

 

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Except that it's impossible to tell if someone actually owned a dragon they claimed they released.

Actually - there is offspring of at least one of my old yules. It's mate is still on my scroll. So I could prove my previous ownership of that particular dragon.

 

C'mon, guys. This hurts no one and benefits many.
Hmm. Spontaneous creation of CB rare eggs would hurt no one and benefit many, too. Letting people choose "their" variety of snow angels would hur no one and benefit many. Getting multi-clutches back would hurt no one and benefit many. Making all dragon eggs and hatchlings immune to death from over-viewing would hurt no one and benefit many. It still isn't happening. So why this?

 

And, yes, I know it's a game. And a game has rules, too.

 

Also, what's not fair about people having to stick with the consequences of their choices? (Just wondering.)

Edited by olympe

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1) Ever heard of inflation? Everyone instantly getting CB Rares would crash the markets and utterly mock everyone who worked hard to get theirs. It'd also make having one in itself pretty standard and unrewarding. Seems like it'd hurt a few people to me.

 

2) I spoke with one of the Snow Angel's creators and they said they'd actually like it if everyone could have every color. The other spriter I couldn't get in touch with, but last I heard they did it mainly because TJ wanted it that way. So that one's on TJ--which is how suggestions work. We can only ask and hope. Just because something doesn't happen doesn't mean it's without merit.

 

3) Multicluthes were an invalid idea for a long time because the cave was constantly blocked by the AP. Maybe now they can be suggested again, though.

 

4) There have been suggestions to remove sickness (or at least finally add a heal BSA). On the other hand, some people think the game would be too boring without it, and in theory it can prevent major eggspam--so it might have it's merits, too.

 

But again, this suggestion isn't about any of those things. Rare x rare refusal didn't bring back frozen rares, did it? Not everything leads into everything. Treat this suggestion on its own merits, not fear of the future. If the game ever becomes so silly in changing the past that players begin to lose interest, I'm sure TJ will take note and restore whatever worked better. Pretty sure this suggestion won't be that game breaker, though!

 

Every game has rules indeed... but one that inflexibly clings to old ones even when the player base really would like them changed is not going to be the greatest game. The whole reason we're having this discussion to begin with is because a five year rule was changed by the will of the players. I hope it can happen again.

 

Edit: Isn't it unfair to do something according to certain rules--old, long-term rules--only to have those rules change on you? Obviously it happens all the time anyway, but as before, being allowed exemptions every now and then would be nice. Especially when I still have yet to see any way this would hurt people OR drastically alter the game, which suggestions like dishing out CB rares would do. Letting people use something they already have is hardly an uproar-inducing change.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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1) Ever heard of inflation? Everyone instantly getting CB Rares would crash the markets and utterly mock everyone who worked hard to get theirs. It'd also make having one in itself pretty standard and unrewarding. Seems like it'd hurt a few people to me.

Isn't that what happens to people who now want to trade away their 2nd gen holidays if all the frozen hatchlings get unfrozen?

 

But again, this suggestion isn't about any of those things.

Agreed, it isn't. But the same argument you're using for your cause - unfreezing frozen holiday hatchlings - could be used for any of the other causes mentioned.

 

Isn't it unfair to do something according to certain rules--old, long-term rules--only to have those rules change on you?
You couldn't get a 3rd holiday dragon then. You can now. But why does that constitute for a change of the unfreezing rule? You can still raise and freeze as many of that breed as your limits permit.

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I'm getting the feeling that this won't happen. I *still* don't understand the arguments against this suggestion, since it seems like most of the arguments are basically "lets just unfreeze everything then!" and "you made the decision, too bad", which.... was already addressed, many times.

 

Now I admit I don't remember the exact circumstances surrounding the Frills discontinuation, but I *do* know that the Bright Pinks were able to be bred for about three months after the initial announcement before they were fully discontinued. So there's no reason for the whole "rules changed, lets unfreeze!" to apply to them, since users were informed and had time.

 

And, as has been noted, Frills did *not have a limit*. You could raise or freeze as many as you wanted. If you didn't, whether because you didn't like them or had other goals, whatever. But you *could*. You could have an army of frozen Frills if you wanted.

Completely *unlike* the holiday dragons, of which you could only have 2, and had to decide within that 7-day space what you were going to do with your two dragons. You couldn't decide to let them both grow up and then go out and get one to freeze, as you could with Frills. You had to make serious decisions within a short amount of time based on a limit of TWO dragons. Two. That's all. So yes, because of only being able to have *two*, many users did things they might not have done if there was no limit.

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The only explanation I can recall ever hearing for Freezing being permanent was to prevent people from routinely Freezing hatchies on their scrolls in order to make room for more and simply unFreezing them later, when they had space again.

 

With a one-shot option of unFreezing dragons, this doesn't apply.

 

The 'perpetual youth spell' would simply be lifted from selected dragons in a one-shot deal, with these instantly becoming adults to prevent them from being traded.

 

This doesn't seem to me to have any potential for deleterious effects on the game or uninvolved players, and might have a positive effect in increasing the breeding pool of these dragons at a time when people are (presumably, and I hope) to be able to (continue to, I hope, lol) take as many bred Holiday dragons as they want/can hold, doing away with the previous AP wall of bred Holiday overflow which discouraged so many from breeding in recent years.

 

And I honestly don't see why people shouldn't, during any such limited 'amnesty' period, be able to unFreeze any dragons they choose.

 

Why grudge a group of people a one-time shot at something that matters to them, would bring them happiness, and doesn't adversely affect the rest of us at all?

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Why grudge a group of people a one-time shot at something that matters to them, would bring them happiness, and doesn't adversely affect the rest of us at all?

That's something that weirds me out about this thread. It seems like people are saying, you must have compassion for me to unfreeze mah dragon! But yet, I need not have any for you, so don't even think about it. Which is why I think this thread isn't going to go anywhere. Granted, I don't think unlimited holidays had full support, so one never knows.

 

As far as Frill retirement, the artist had posted a cut off date that they had requested to TJ and assumed he was doing. So people ran to the cave and got every bright marking egg they could get. But after awhile, it became obvious none of them were frills. People were supposed to get a 1 month notice, but ended up getting none. I remember some of us bred them trying to make eggies for people to get and got yelled at that we were killing the chance of CBs. Ended up, there weren't really cbs to get anyway and none of our breedings produced eggs. So it was kinda a moot point.

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The decision if you want to have two CB adults on the scroll has not changed - only the motivation to do so. The real question is - is that change of mind a good enough reason to create a major precendence?

 

If you guys would be a bit more honest what this suggestion really is about, the discussion would not revolve around "that it brings happiness" or something like that. It basically comes down to *more CB = more 2nd gen offspring to trade = can trade more". It is not the number of CB dragons, because the frozen hatchling is CB. It is not the ability to build lineages, with the limits gone it can be done well without defreezing. The reason is always money (in this case, DC trade value).

 

Having said that, I care neither way. I won't unfreeze CB Holiday hatchlings I have, but I would not mind if this was allowed. But seriously - call the child by its real name. Trade fodder.

 

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The decision if you want to have two CB adults on the scroll has not changed - only the motivation to do so. The real question is - is that change of mind a good enough reason to create a major precendence?

 

If you guys would be a bit more honest what this suggestion really is about, the discussion would not revolve around "that it brings happiness" or something like that. It basically comes down to *more CB = more 2nd gen offspring to trade = can trade more". It is not the number of CB dragons, because the frozen hatchling is CB. It is not the ability to build lineages, with the limits gone it can be done well without defreezing. The reason is always money (in this case, DC trade value).

 

Having said that, I care neither way. I won't unfreeze CB Holiday hatchlings I have, but I would not mind if this was allowed. But seriously - call the child by its real name. Trade fodder.

The decision about whether we want two adults hasn't changed, no. However, what has changed is that before it was a choice between "do you want two adults" or "do you ever want to have a frozen of this breed." I would have loved to have two adults. However, at that time--and for many years--I had to choose between that and frozens. And as much as I wanted the adults, I wanted to be able to have a frozen more. Now, however, that which forced me to sacrifice an adult to preserve a different sprite is gone.

 

It might be that way for some, but I think it's unfair to say that's the only reason. I mean, honestly; what are 2g Holidays worth? Not a whole lot. The only ones with a lot of worth are 2g Hollies, and I doubt a single CB Holly will be affected by this. So trading's not a really big deal here, at least as much as I can tell.

 

My main reasons for wanting this are so I can create 3g Holiday checkers on my own, and can both gift and keep. I'd not mind working together to create 3g Holiday checkers with others (and, indeed, I'll have no choice but to collaborate with others to reach higher gens), but since some people are very gung-ho about "if the dragon's ancestors aren't yours, anyone can poke holes in your lineage view," I kind of have to deal with that even to make 3gs right now, which is frustrating. Also, it'd be nice if I didn't have to choose every year whether to gift or keep for myself. I kept not a single 2g Holiday for myself this year. Zero, zilch, nada. They were all gifted or dropped to the AP, because I like sharing. But it's also kind of a bummer because it means every year I'm going to have to choose between making my own lineages or sharing... ;___;

 

And y'know, heck, even if it was just 100% trading (although, as per the above, I contest that)--more dragons are being dropped to the AP then are being held. 'Tis a fact. I was ecstatic about the Holiday limits being removed and still am now, but I will confess I was surprised at the relative difficulty of grabbing nice ones from the AP. It definitely felt like a lot more work and a lot less reward than Halloween. Hopefully that'll change as people begin building lineages and reach the numbers they want... but in the meantime some extra eggs sure wouldn't hurt.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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It basically comes down to *more CB = more 2nd gen offspring to trade = can trade more". It is not the number of CB dragons, because the frozen hatchling is CB. It is not the ability to build lineages, with the limits gone it can be done well without defreezing. The reason is always money (in this case, DC trade value).

I don't even breed my CB Holidays during the holiday season, don't feel like doing that unless I am asked by friends, so that's not the issue for me. I'd like to unfreeze my CB/2nd gen Holiday hatchlings because normally I grow such dragons to adulthood, because it bugs me that I froze something that I normally wouldn't have because there was a limit, a special condition that isn't in place any longer.

 

Trading may be one of the reasons (which I don't care about honestly: if people get to breed one more 2nd gen because they unfreeze a CB, what then? It's not like they are worth a gazillion after all), but is far from being the only one for sure. *shrugs*

Edited by ZzelaBusya

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The decision if you want to have two CB adults on the scroll has not changed - only the motivation to do so. The real question is - is that change of mind a good enough reason to create a major precendence?

 

If you guys would be a bit more honest what this suggestion really is about, the discussion would not revolve around "that it brings happiness" or something like that. It basically comes down to *more CB = more 2nd gen offspring to trade = can trade more". It is not the number of CB dragons, because the frozen hatchling is CB. It is not the ability to build lineages, with the limits gone it can be done well without defreezing. The reason is always money (in this case, DC trade value).

 

Having said that, I care neither way. I won't unfreeze CB Holiday hatchlings I have, but I would not mind if this was allowed. But seriously - call the child by its real name. Trade fodder.

I know I don't speak for the majority but I support this so I can unfreeze my cb yulebuck and gift the offspring, not trade (and trading is a perfectly good reason, as well, just wanna say there are other reasons). For me, it's not trade fodder, I really wish I could have gifted one more 2nd gen yule to those people who searched for them every day. So different people, different reasons x.x

Edited by LaHaine

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2nd gens of anything but Hollies don't really go for much (and I sincerely doubt that a CB Holly would be affected by this), and even 3rd-4th gen Hollies didn't seem to be trading for insane prices this year. Plus, a lot of people either dump their 2nd gens to the AP or gift them, so they don't get anything for it. Unfreezing would affect very little in terms of the trade market, and would mostly just increase the supply to better feed the new demand.

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It seems to me that when trading 2Gen Holidays people are usually asking for other second gen Holidays. I'd bet that roughly the same amount of most holidays would be unfrozen because of this, (excluding Hollies) so that shouldn't be effected much. Non-Holiday offspring of holidays have never really gone for a lot, so I don't really think this would have this much of effect on the Market.

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Well, all of you, you can still get as many adult holiday dragons as you want. You can get more frozen hatchlings if you want. It's all open to you. The only thing you cannot get is a new CB. Nobody can. If someone only grabbed one CB in the first place, they won't be able to get a 2nd CB, either.

 

When you froze a CB hatchling, you made the conscious choice to have no more than 1 CB adult.

 

Now, however, that which forced me to sacrifice an adult to preserve a different sprite is gone.

No, it's not. You still need to sacrifice an adult in order to keep a frozen hatchling.

Edited by olympe

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As I said before, I don't give a crap about CBs or lineages, so my unfreezing wouldn't be about that. And as I can see from the posts above me, I'm not the only one.

 

Sure, maybe "trade fodder" is A reason, but let's not pretend it's the *only* reason behind this suggestion when it's very obviously not.

 

The decision if you want to have two CB adults on the scroll has not changed - only the motivation to do so.

 

And that's not true at all. "Motivation" to do so? It wasn't about motivation, I'm not sure where you're going with that word. When users in the past chose to freeze a holiday hatchling instead of having two adults (CB *or not*) it was a hard decision based on the knowledge that we could only have two of those dragons. It wasn't "I choose to have two adults and one frozen" or anything like that, we had to chose because of limits... That are now *non-existant*. So it has nothing to do with "motivation" or whatever, it has to do with changing with the tides. Rules have changed, so let us fix what was done under now-false rules. NO different then the rare-rare breeding fix that was allowed.

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No, it's not. You still need to sacrifice an adult in order to keep a frozen hatchling.

Let me clarify:

 

I had to make a (very frustrating) choice between a CB one-time-ever-only irraplacable adult and never having that Holiday's hatchling sprite on my scroll.

 

I don't give a toot about giving up an average adult for a frozen. I do care, however, that for five years I was led to believe that I had no choice but to give up a limited edition adult for a frozen. That's a very different set of rules to play by! Now that the rules have changed, it would be nice to be able to reverse a decision made under very different rules. Not necessary, no, but nice--and not just for me, but for many other people and many other people beyond that who benefit from gifting, AP-hunting, and even trading.

 

"But what about the old trading system/discontinueds/releases" doesn't really apply here, either. Address one topic at a time; don't shoot down an idea for any but its own merits. Most of those aren't directly comparable anyway; obviously lost things can't be replaced, because that would involve taking them from someone else; discontinueds had a warning period to let people choose what to do (at least OPs did... I think Frills did, too?); released dragons have no way of the scroll recording who they belong too originally.

 

What it's most like is rare x rare breeding. A rule changed, and because 1) it was easily reversible (scrolls keep track of refusals, just as they keep track of frozen hatchlings) 2) hurt nobody to implement and 3) indeed made many players happy, a limited-time reversal was allowed for. So fingers crossed for it again. We are hardly asking for a permanent undo button for all of our DC-woes, just another rare exemption made in an unusual case.

 

(I wish we had more TJs on patrol... I feel like these suggestions quickly become circular and in need of higher-up answers X___x)

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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Actually, someone had posted just earlier that the spriter had thought that there would be a grace period for the Frills to be obtained, but there wasn't.

 

And I think it would be very gracious of TJ to allow a one-shot period where people could UnFreeze whatever they chose.

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Just why? Like everybody else, you can get more dragons of that kind. What influence does that have on your frozen hatchling(s)?

 

Also, if you allow unfreezes for pretty much everything, wouldn't that basically mean that freezing isn't freezing any more?

It's just a particular thing I have about my scroll. I just really, really, really like having at least one pair of adults (and specifically one male, one female unless it's a single-sex breed) of each breed on my scroll that have a bred/stolen on date that matches the release date. Obviously I can't do that with all the dragons since I wasn't here from the very first day of DC, but wherever possible I take 'em. It still kills me that I wasn't able to get my hands on a Green Copper on the release day because I was locked, so I'll never have that one with the bred/stolen date listed as the same as the release date.

 

It's not that it's a CB/2nd gen (in the case of hybrids) thing for me, it's all about the release dates. It just happens that you clearly can't get a lineaged dragon with the stolen date for most releases, the only time you can is with hybrids.

 

As for the unfreezing thing... No, I don't think it's quite the same as basically saying freezing isn't freezing. That would be the case if you could unfreeze whenever you wanted. It's not an unfreeze willy-nilly. It's an "Okay, you're getting a second chance to make this decision. If you have any regrets about the last time you made it as a result of the new, massive alteration to the rules of the game, you can change that decision. If you still stand by your choice, you can leave it."

 

Personally, if there were some way to track the released dragons, I'd argue for the option to call them back, too. But unlike hatchlings still recorded on the scroll, those dragons no longer have data attached to them... Now, if there was a way to prove it--by having an adult that had bred with it on your scroll--I'd be all for using that as a means to call back the released dragon. However, simply having offspring of it--if you don't have the mate on the scroll--isn't enough since you could have traded/found the offspring in the AP.

 

If the "but then they'll be able to breed even MORE 2nd gens!" is such a big argument, then perhaps something could be included into the coding to make them sterile?

 

But seriously - call the child by its real name. Trade fodder.

Except that's not the real reason some of us have for it.

 

I very rarely bother trying to trade off holiday eggs--I either gift them, or simply dump them into the AP for other players who want them to take. I wouldn't magically start trying to trade just because I had a second egg I could breed for trading per breed. I'd just have roughly twice as many eggs I could give away/dump for other people who want them.

 

I mean, with the lifting of the limits I'm happy enough with simply having caught another adult of each breed and one to freeze as S1. But I'd just adore being able to finally have the dragons with their release dates as the stolen dates among my adults, y'know? It's a little thing I just really am a little particular about.

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I have followed the trading threads during DC season to uphold my opinion. Haves and Wants were dominated by Hollies of any variety, but regarding other holidays 2nd gens were by far the most offered/wanted.

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I have followed the trading threads during DC season to uphold my opinion. Haves and Wants were dominated by Hollies of any variety, but regarding other holidays 2nd gens were by far the most offered/wanted.

It's not that simple. Trade fodder is much more than about breeding 2g holidays.

 

An adult CB Holiday can be used to breed 2nd gen commons for your chequers, metals amongst other things. Its offspring are practically a guarantee of 2nd gen swaps in the future. And the 2nd gens can be used to build 3rd gens and so on. Its offspring are an essential tool for lineage building in all ways. And even disregarding the utility of a CB, you owning an adult CB indicates that you were there - it's an exclusive milestone in many more ways than a frozen CB.

 

People want more than a sprite, they want the utility and freedom that a CB adult offers.

 

I (personally) really couldn't care less that I released a CB frozen Ribbon Dancer because I accidentally froze it unwinged and wanted a winged one. Yes I lost one CB and regret it quite a bit, but I don't really like Ribbon Dancers much anyway even if the limits were lifted. The way I see it, I'd see the freezing of any other holiday as a mild sacrilege. I never really understood why others froze - I did in order to free up my scroll but never at the cost of an adult if the species was one I loved.

 

So I guess I can understand people really wanting to unfreeze their CB Snow Angels, especially. If I had one, I'd almost definitely use it for lineage swaps. You see, I think people are kinda realising that it's not EASY to catch holidays in the AP. Not as simple as Halloween with a massive breeding stock. I think people want a CB from their hatchlings as an extra security blanket - just in case they can't catch an egg/trade for one, etc. And of course, it's good for gifting too in the occasion you're not going to keep the dragon.

 

I don't think that many people are going to have frozen a CB Holly/want to unfreeze hollies since they probably thought more carefully about the consequences than freezing any other dragon.

 

(But anyway, I'd give up every 2g holly I'd have in an instant if I could have a single adult CB Snow Angel. So I think I do understand why people want that CB back. They're never going to be able to get it again, otherwise.)

Edited by DarkEternity

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They are in demand, yes, but I didn't see many people demanding CB metals for a single 2nd-gen (yes, people do that, but they are outnumbered by people looking for other holidays or un/commons), which is what I was referring to. We aren't denying that demand exists and that people want to trade for them, but having more 2nd gens available isn't exactly going to make the value go up.

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It's not that simple. Trade fodder is much more than about breeding 2g holidays.

 

An adult CB Holiday can be used to breed 2nd gen commons for your chequers, metals amongst other things. Its offspring are practically a guarantee of 2nd gen swaps in the future. And the 2nd gens can be used to build 3rd gens and so on. Its offspring are an essential tool for lineage building in all ways.  And even disregarding the utility of a CB, you owning an adult CB indicates that you were there - it's an exclusive milestone in many more ways than a frozen CB. 

 

People want more than a sprite, they want the utility and freedom that a CB adult offers.

 

I (personally) really couldn't care less that I released a CB frozen Ribbon Dancer because I accidentally froze it unwinged and wanted a winged one. Yes I lost one CB and regret it quite a bit, but I don't really like Ribbon Dancers much anyway even if the limits were lifted. The way I see it, I'd see the freezing of any other holiday as a mild sacrilege. I never really understood why others froze - I did in order to free up my scroll but never at the cost of an adult if the species was one I loved.

 

So I guess I can understand people really wanting to unfreeze their CB Snow Angels, especially. If I had one, I'd almost definitely use it for lineage swaps. You see, I think people are kinda realising that it's not EASY to catch holidays in the AP. Not as simple as Halloween with a massive breeding stock. I think people want a CB from their hatchlings as an extra security blanket - just in case they can't catch an egg/trade for one, etc. And of course, it's good for gifting too in the occasion you're not going to keep the dragon.

 

I don't think that many people are going to have frozen a CB Holly/want to unfreeze hollies since they probably thought more carefully about the consequences than freezing any other dragon.

 

(But anyway, I'd give up every 2g holly I'd have in an instant if I could have a single adult CB Snow Angel. So I think I do understand why people want that CB back. They're never going to be able to get it again, otherwise.)

 

I'm not saying that getting more trade opportunities is invalid as a reason for this suggestion. All I said is that people don't admit that this is the main reason and give all this stuff about "It will make everything flowery and rainbowy".

 

Can you elaborate on "an adult CB proves that you were there, a frozen one doesn't (as much)"? A frozen CB still is a CB, and under the pretext of disregarding the utility I don't understand. The rest of your post I interpret exactly as I meant - more CBs equal more trading opportunities.

Edited by Rally Vincent

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Well, when I look at a scroll, I generally what people can breed, not what's unbreedable. (I think it's part of the reason why people tend to freeze something messy. There's less of a sense of 'loss' - taking something neat and pretty out of the gene pool.)

 

Yuupp - 'flowery' and 'rainbowy' this suggestion is not. People want things because they see it as beneficial, especially to themselves. The fact that more things are going to the AP is just an accessory.

 

Still, they make a good point regardless of their intentions. rolleyes.gif

Edited by DarkEternity

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