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ANSWERED:One-Time-Only Holiday Unfreeze Option

Should users be able to unfreeze previously-limited Holidays?  

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(Because they can't get more CB? Well, they shouldn't. Nobody can.)

 

I've got to admit don't agree with the rest of your argument at all, but this part... that strikes me as touching, indirectly, on the heart of the issue.

 

You can get more of the dragons in the coming years. Why would dragons you got in the past be any more valuable? Because they're CB? The game doesn't have a history of acknowledging the value of CBs and a lot of the community is vehemently against them having a special status.

 

I disagree with the mindset that CBs should not be considered any more valuable than bred eggs, but I also think it's valid to hinge the argument on that.

 

I'm unaffected by this, so my instinct is to allow unfreezing if the people affected by it would like it (that's my general policy), but I'm admittedly a little more neutral now.

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As I (think I) said - either unfreeze the lot - or let things be.

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As I (think I) said - either unfreeze the lot - or let things be.

 

Well, yeah, I definitely agree, but the thing is, if CBs / bred does not make a difference, then "you can get more dragons from now on" is a valid way of defusing the argument that this needs to be done altogether. You can get as many lineaged dragons in future as you need.

 

I'm not pleased with the logic behind that, since I'd rather be vehemently in favour of this (since others are), but it is logical, assuming one accepts the premise. sad.gif

 

I'm still in favour of it because I see no harm in it and other people want it, it's just a bit subdued now. v_v

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Anyway, if this unfreezing actually happens, the least that has to be taken care of is that these hatchlings can neither be abandoned nor teleported. I mean, what would people offer for a CB yule (since I doubt there's a single frozen CB holly out there) or a CB Val '09? Turning them into adults instantly (upon player-authorized unfreezing) is the best way to achieve that IMHO.

Edited by olympe

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the least that has to be taken care of is that these hatchlings can neither be abandoned nor teleported.

 

Yeah, agreed, but I think everyone's already unanimously in favour of that (the instant-adults thing), though, so that shouldn't be the problem. smile.gif

Edited by pinkgothic

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I don't actually see what is the problem with the suggestion really.

And I don't actually see why people are bringing retired non-holiday dragons, which had no limit what so ever in entire DC history, into argument, when it's about Holiday dragons which used to have the limit.

 

Surely, the freezing option does say that it is irreversible. As one sort of collector, back then on 2008, I already acknowledged that freezing was going to be permanent (though I failed to freeze CB Yulebuck, lol.)

 

However, back in 2008, I also acknowledged that the limit of the Christmas dragons is 2. And I am sure majority also expected that the limits were never going to get lifted. And if it was even considered, it was highly unlikely to happen. Lets not forget how things worked differently back then, when there actually wasn't problem to find someone to gift Holiday dragon to.

 

But keep in mind, we didn't have the magical mystical orb to look at the future and be "Aha! On 2013 limits are going to get removed!" And certainly none of us had ability to sense it. Some people had one tingling feeling that "maybe... probably... highly unlikely, but... maybe?"

 

Of course, during the years we started to have problems with who to gift to. AP filled with Holiday eggs and some AP eggs reaching mere hours before the Holidays were gone and you could pick instant ERs. Now who would like to breed, when there is no demand or no one can't take any? I think everyone remembers all those Holiday walls in AP, which seemed like they were endless. Gradually people had to release their Holidays to get lineaged one. Just to have something pretty to look at, you know? Or for some other reason.

 

And this year, the issue was solved by lifting the limits. And I am sure we all can agree that the Christmas eggs in AP went in less than a minute. The demand came back for the Holiday dragons very quickly, and I am sure that quite a few people are happy about being able to construct lineages from these pretties.

 

Now wouldn't it be more useful to meet the demand by having these previous years' hatchlings, only this once, unfreeze and become adults? Yes, having more Christmas dragons to breed next year wouldn't be that bad, right?

 

And there would be, therefore, more to gift. But apparently having some unfreezes to get more dragons to breed next year for more gifts is seen bad, hm? Wasn't Christmas about giving and sharing after all?

 

I agree, these hatchlings, which are going to be unfreezed (if it happens), have to grow up instantly. Otherwise we are going to have some ridiculous trades. Or have it grow normally, but no abandoning or teleporting it elsewhere. My bet is in insta-adults.

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I believe that people were thinking that whatever was unFrozen would grow up instantly, to prevent any from being traded.

 

And to be fair, (if you'll pardon the term, lol,) I think that there should be a general, one-time 'amnesty', allowing everyone to unFreeze whatever they want over a specified period.

 

Maybe all things can't be fixed for everyone, but it would be nice if they could be fixed where possible.

 

Edit: lol, guess it took longer for me to go get a drink before writing than I realized - I is so very, very ninja.gif ed xd.png

Edited by Syphoneira

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And to be fair, (if you'll pardon the term, lol,) I think that there should be a general, one-time 'amnesty', allowing everyone to unFreeze whatever they want over a specified period.

I think I've mentioned in a thread before, that I've always thought it was odd that death has a chance at being reversible, but not freezing.

 

But as far as more gifting, if we wanted more dragons it would be more productive to lift the restriction on newly matured holiday dragons being able to breed. Rather than what happens now, TJ forgets to turn the most recent off and it causes a snafu. xd.png

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I personally think that it's a little bit too much to ask of TJ. I'd have supported it much more if people asked for it at the same(ish) time (give or take a year) as when people asked for the Holiday limits to be raised.

 

It comes across as something would have never been suggested unless Holiday limits have been raised, like they have been now. But isn't it enough that we can now collect an entire sprite sequence? Regardless of whether or not something is CB or lineaged, isn't that enough?

 

I'd understand much more, if it was practically impossible to catch holidays so that you could have the sprite set and such, but it's not and there was still several walls of holidays in the AP. I understand also, that there are plenty of people out there with CB metals and other things frozen which they would rather unfrozen.

 

We can pretty much say that Bright Pinks and Frills are going to be frozen forever, and these are dragons that many of us are never going to be able to get. Perhaps if you were going to ask to get those things - which you can never get another of - unfrozen then I'd definitely be behind that, but...

 

Holidays, now you can get plenty of them. Not being able to unfreeze something isn't the be all or end all of anything. When you freeze something, it says:

Permanently prevent the hatchling from maturing into an adult.

I'm really sorry, but when you freeze something, you put your password in and agreed to freeze it permanently. Permanently usually suggests that it's irreversible. Limits may be lifted - scroll limits and holiday limits, but the freeze warning hasn't changed.

 

I've seen freezing being compared to the rare x rare refusals - but that really isn't the same. You made the decision to freeze a dragon, the site warned you that it was going to be permanent and you chose to agree.

 

But enough of that. I don't especially mind unfreezing in general. Assuming that unfreezing is going to take place, I definitely don't agree with 'instant growing hatchlings'. I'm pretty sure that lots of people have frozen dragons at some point or another to unlock their scrolls, whether you were an ignorant noob at the time like me, or something else. Some kind of circumvention of the amount of time for a dragon growing up - even if it's several years later - doesn't really sit that well with me.

Edited by DarkEternity

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Yes, this is about "fair". At least if you read the main argument many people post. It's all about fairness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(And, if you really only joined early in '10, you were definitely too late for BPs. I joined late in Oct. '09 and was definitely too late. /offtopic)

So I think that unfrozen CB is fair and you think that it is unfair, right?

Can I ask you for a question? Are you mind about the Lineage of dragon?

If no, that is the different for you and me rolleyes.gif

If yes, do you think that 1 CB dragon for each people is enough? rolleyes.gif

Maybe you think that it is unfair because freezing is unable to change?

But the system is also unfair to them because no one told them the limit will be cancel, right? laugh.gif

For me, I am sign up in 2011, but I started playing DC is 2013, toooooooooo late laugh.gif

 

 

(But anyway it is not the big problem for me in fact, even though I join in 2008, I will only take one holiday egg and freezing their child next year.XP)

Edited by D-wing

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I don't think the argument that not all regretted choices can be changed is a good reason to reject this. It's a fun game, not a tool for teaching life is full of rough choices. Even if not everything can be changed as we'd like it, a few allowances every now and then when something big like this happens would be nice. Plus, this automatically ensures all that many more Holiday dragons going to the AP. Seems pretty win / win to me!

 

@DarkEternity: this suggestion did come up in the raising limits thread--multiple times--it just always got buried beneath everything else.

 

Also, people who bred rare x rare knew it would result in refusals at the time and still did it anyway... and people were still able to remove such refusals (people who weren't on the forums might not have known, but the same applies to Holiday limits--people off the forum might've frozen assuming that that limit of two was only for that year or whatever)

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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I voted no. Freezing was a decision that was made when the full expectation was: this was it. You get two and you choose to freeze one as an immature dragon. Forever. The warning you get is that choosing that option is irreversible. That means, what has been done, cannot be undone.

 

Believe me, I've frozen a few things that in retrospect I wish I hadn't (like a CB Bright Pink) But that was the decision I made at the time, and I accept that. Part of the game involves making decisions. Some good, some bad. It's the nature of the game. Actually, it's the nature of all games and life.

 

 

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I voted no.  Freezing was a decision that was made when the full expectation was: this was it. You get two and you choose to freeze one as an immature dragon. Forever.  The warning you get is that choosing that option is irreversible. That means, what has been done, cannot be undone.

(my coloring)

 

THAT is the whole point here, though. Freezing was a decision that some people made when *everyone knew* that *you get two* and that's it. Only two. Ever. People made hard decisions (yes, "irreversible" decisions) based on the knowledge they had back then.

 

That knowledge, that *fact*, has changed. TJ changed the rules on us. So yes, people who made that hard decision based on what are now *untrue facts* would like the option to unfreeze.

 

This suggestion is about *holidays whose limits changed*, not about discontinued dragons or anything of that like, so there's really no reason to bring them into this discussion. We aren't talking about them and we aren't suggesting anything about them.

 

Freezing is irreversible. Yes, we know that. We all get that warning. But when you make that decision based on *information that is now wrong*, I think it's understandable for people to want an undo ability.

 

I agree that unfrozen hatchlings should immediately grow up or be stuck to your scroll like GoNs are, to prevent misuse.

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Quite honestly, if this is going to work, there can't be limitations. You can't say that ONLY CBs can be unfrozen. Personally, I would like to see a really rare, long cooldown BSA for unfreezing. Maybe from GoN. And the cooldown would be something like one year. That would limit the amount of abuse that could happen AND it would be something "special". I don't mind unfreezing hatchlings, I just don't want it to be specific. "Only Cave Born Holiday Dragons" is a little ridiculous, honestly.

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Sure, why not. Letting people unfreeze their previously limited dragons would have no ill-effect on how I play the game and would make people happier. I don't see a downside.

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Personally, I would like to see a really rare, long cooldown BSA for unfreezing. Maybe from GoN. And the cooldown would be something like one year. That would limit the amount of abuse that could happen AND it would be something "special". I don't mind unfreezing hatchlings, I just don't want it to be specific. "Only Cave Born Holiday Dragons" is a little ridiculous, honestly.

No please....some people have never gotten their GoNs despite playing before GoNs were introduced.

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General you, not directed at anyone specific-

Merely curious, but if TJ said you could unfreeze the holidays on your scroll right now, but at the cost of not being able to freeze any other hatchling(s) of the same type, would you still do it?

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General you, not directed at anyone specific-

Merely curious, but if TJ said you could unfreeze the holidays on your scroll right now, but at the cost of not being able to freeze any other hatchling(s) of the same type, would you still do it?

No. I value the hatchling sprites over the adults, as much as I want the latter (that's the whole reason I froze them to begin with!)

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Anyway, if this unfreezing actually happens, the least that has to be taken care of is that these hatchlings can neither be abandoned nor teleported. I mean, what would people offer for a CB yule (since I doubt there's a single frozen CB holly out there) or a CB Val '09? Turning them into adults instantly (upon player-authorized unfreezing) is the best way to achieve that IMHO.

Yes - that was what I meant when I mentioned cheating, WAY up the thread.

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This suggestion is about *holidays whose limits changed*, not about discontinued dragons or anything of that like, so there's really no reason to bring them into this discussion. We aren't talking about them and we aren't suggesting anything about them.

I don't think that's something you can disregard in this discussion. Whether you're for or against it, if TJ allows people to unfreeze holiday dragons that they're previously frozen under different circumstances, then the people who froze dragons that were then discontinued are also going to want to be able to unfreeze theirs as well.

 

I don't think this is a matter quite as simple as unfreezing CB holiday dragons, which I gather is what people here want. People with lineaged holidays are going to want theirs unfrozen, too. Like it or not, people who froze discontinued dragons are also going to want to have theirs unfrozen on exactly the same grounds (of their decision being made before TJ 'changed the rules' on them). Then anyone else who ever froze something and changed their mind is also going to want a do over.

 

The only way I think that unfreezing could be entirely fair would be if everyone had the opportunity to unfreeze anything they'd ever frozen. Otherwise, people are still going to complain that it's unfair some got that opportunity and others didn't. And I'm very against an outcome like that.

 

I'm sure all of us have made decisions on the site that we regret, whether it be a certain trade or freezing something that later turns out to be valuable. But I don't think new information and/or changes made down the track should mean that we get to undo the commitments we've made in the past. I think as soon as we do start back tracking and allowing things to be undone, the flood gate will be open and people will want everything in the game to be reversible. And I'm sure they'll think that they've got just as much justification for it as people do for this situation.

 

You don't have to agree with me, but this is what I believe would happen if this suggestion was approved. Which is why I'm against it.

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I don't think that's something you can disregard in this discussion. Whether you're for or against it, if TJ allows people to unfreeze holiday dragons that they're previously frozen under different circumstances, then the people who froze dragons that were then discontinued are also going to want to be able to unfreeze theirs as well.

 

I don't think this is a matter quite as simple as unfreezing CB holiday dragons, which I gather is what people here want. People with lineaged holidays are going to want theirs unfrozen, too. Like it or not, people who froze discontinued dragons are also going to want to have theirs unfrozen on exactly the same grounds (of their decision being made before TJ 'changed the rules' on them). Then anyone else who ever froze something and changed their mind is also going to want a do over.

 

The only way I think that unfreezing could be entirely fair would be if everyone had the opportunity to unfreeze anything they'd ever frozen. Otherwise, people are still going to complain that it's unfair some got that opportunity and others didn't. And I'm very against an outcome like that.

 

I'm sure all of us have made decisions on the site that we regret, whether it be a certain trade or freezing something that later turns out to be valuable. But I don't think new information and/or changes made down the track should mean that we get to undo the commitments we've made in the past. I think as soon as we do start back tracking and allowing things to be undone, the flood gate will be open and people will want everything in the game to be reversible. And I'm sure they'll think that they've got just as much justification for it as people do for this situation.

 

You don't have to agree with me, but this is what I believe would happen if this suggestion was approved. Which is why I'm against it.

That was what I meant when I said I want my frills unfrozen too.If I had known then. - just the hatchies are so CUTE...

The exact same argument as holidays.

 

And with frills, we didn't even have any idea the end was nigh. At least with Christmas we were TOLD it was only two per person. We made a decision based on a policy, kind of.

 

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I'd like this.

 

However, I think it should be for ALL dragons caught before each respective holiday that the limit was first lifted on (so all Christmas dragons caught before this year, and if V-day is unlimited then all ones caught before the upcoming V-day). No differentiating between lineaged and CB.

 

I'd also argue for extending it to the Pumpkin ones, too, as when they came out it was believed they would not be obtainable in the future as has been pointed out--so technically they sort of fall under the same category as "I froze these under the understanding that there would never be a chance to get additional ones" as the previous Xmas/V-Day dragons.

 

 

I feel like they should either mature instantly upon unfreezing, or they should be scroll-locked so you can't trade them. I also think that it should be a one-time choice. Either you can select which you want to unfreeze or you unfreeze the lot, but after you make that decision you cannot change it.

 

 

When I froze, yes, I made the decision accepting it was irreversible--under the explicit understanding that there would never be a chance to gain additional dragons due to the limit. Now that that limit has changed, I feel like the binding actions I took before should be allowed some flexibility. I mean, the fact that I had a feeling that limit removal/uppage was being seriously considered is the entire reason I didn't freeze any of last year's V-Day dragons. If I'd had that feeling years ago, I would have not frozen.

 

I would also not be opposed to a one-time "unfreeze anything" expansion of it--however, decisions would have to be made at the time of confirming what to keep/unfreeze and could never be changed.

 

And, also, I would argue in favor of including discontinued breeds in a holiday unfreeze, because they were frozen at the time with the understanding that there was no restriction on obtaining future dragons of those breeds. With the changing of the rules to reflect their discontinuation, I feel like if holidays were permitted this exemption to the permanence of freezing it'd only be fair to extend it to the discontinued breeds.

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I don't actually see what is the problem with the suggestion really.

And I don't actually see why people are bringing retired non-holiday dragons, which had no limit what so ever in entire DC history, into argument, when it's about Holiday dragons which used to have the limit.

Well, the thing is the very opposite, actually. Holiday dragons used to have a limit, but it is no more. Retired breeds didn't have a limit, but got limited (due to retirement) to what people had before the retirement went into effect. In either case, the limits have changed.

 

Now wouldn't it be more useful to meet the demand by having these previous years' hatchlings, only this once, unfreeze and become adults? Yes, having more Christmas dragons to breed next year wouldn't be that bad, right?
We already will have more Christmas dragons to breed next year. Because fewer eggs died in the AP or on scrolls of people who never returned to raise their dragons.

 

And there would be, therefore, more to gift. But apparently having some unfreezes to get more dragons to breed next year for more gifts is seen bad, hm? Wasn't Christmas about giving and sharing after all?
It is. But some people are making it about wanting more adults on their scroll by unfreezing their hatchlings. Which is called greed. Not gifting. (Yeah, sure, you'll be able to breed more eggs, and because of multi-clutches, you'll send more eggs to the AP. But the main benefit will go to the people affected by an unfreezing.)

 

And to be fair, (if you'll pardon the term, lol,) I think that there should be a general, one-time 'amnesty', allowing everyone to unFreeze whatever they want over a specified period.
What about those people who released previous holiday dragons in order to replace them with better-lineaged ones? Couldn't they get an amnesty as well? After all, the limits have changed... Same kind of argument, really.

 

I personally think that it's a little bit too much to ask of TJ. I'd have supported it much more if people asked for it at the same(ish) time (give or take a year) as when people asked for the Holiday limits to be raised.
Truth to be told, the issue came up occasionally in the 50+ pages long thread about raising the holiday limits.

 

I've seen freezing being compared to the rare x rare refusals - but that really isn't the same. You made the decision to freeze a dragon, the site warned you that it was going to be permanent and you chose to agree.
You hit the nail on the head for me.

Even if not everything can be changed as we'd like it, a few allowances every now and then when something big like this happens would be nice. Plus, this automatically ensures all that many more Holiday dragons going to the AP. Seems pretty win / win to me!

After all, before teleport was implemented, we had to do trades using the abandoned/code method. Many eggs and hatchlings got lost in trade. Yet, when teleport got implemented, there was nobody asking for their lost trades back, was there?

 

If yes, do you think that 1 CB dragon for each people is enough?
I think that whatever limits apply is what players should work with. If they made the decision to only keep 1 CB adult of each type and freeze their 2nd, it was their own choice, so they[/u[ must have thought that 1 CB adult is enough, yes. And since it was their choice, it's them who will have to suffer the consequence.

 

This suggestion is about *holidays whose limits changed*, not about discontinued dragons or anything of that like, so there's really no reason to bring them into this discussion. We aren't talking about them and we aren't suggesting anything about them.
But you should. Because the same logic you use on frozen (CB?) holiday dragons can be applied to retired breeds or eggs lost in trade (before teleport) or holiday dragons that were released so they could be replaced with "better" ones. You (general you as in "who support this suggestion) trying to make this only about holidays shows me one thing, and one thing only: You want this "amnesty" because you have something to gain from it. More CB holidays to breed and whose offspring you can trade away. Which is still greed, no matter how many of you talk about a benefit for everyone.

 

Now that that limit has changed, I feel like the binding actions I took before should be allowed some flexibility.
Just why? Like everybody else, you can get more dragons of that kind. What influence does that have on your frozen hatchling(s)?

 

Also, if you allow unfreezes for pretty much everything, wouldn't that basically mean that freezing isn't freezing any more?

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I don't think that's something you can disregard in this discussion. Whether you're for or against it, if TJ allows people to unfreeze holiday dragons that they're previously frozen under different circumstances, then the people who froze dragons that were then discontinued are also going to want to be able to unfreeze theirs as well.

 

I don't think this is a matter quite as simple as unfreezing CB holiday dragons, which I gather is what people here want. People with lineaged holidays are going to want theirs unfrozen, too. Like it or not, people who froze discontinued dragons are also going to want to have theirs unfrozen on exactly the same grounds (of their decision being made before TJ 'changed the rules' on them). Then anyone else who ever froze something and changed their mind is also going to want a do over.

 

The only way I think that unfreezing could be entirely fair would be if everyone had the opportunity to unfreeze anything they'd ever frozen. Otherwise, people are still going to complain that it's unfair some got that opportunity and others didn't. And I'm very against an outcome like that.

 

I'm sure all of us have made decisions on the site that we regret, whether it be a certain trade or freezing something that later turns out to be valuable. But I don't think new information and/or changes made down the track should mean that we get to undo the commitments we've made in the past. I think as soon as we do start back tracking and allowing things to be undone, the flood gate will be open and people will want everything in the game to be reversible. And I'm sure they'll think that they've got just as much justification for it as people do for this situation.

 

You don't have to agree with me, but this is what I believe would happen if this suggestion was approved. Which is why I'm against it.

This. I agree with you. Also what about all those people who released their CBs in sacrifice for pretty lineages? I'm sure they regret it just as well but their action is permanent just as freezing is. How would they be compensated? They wouldn't since their dragons are forever lost in the wilderness.

 

I feel bad for everyone who made that decision to freeze/release CB holidays with the limit now lifted. But I don't agree with an option for people to unfreeze their holidays if those who chose to release them are not compensated as well.

 

So I voted no. Permanent means permanent no matter how or if the rules of the game change...sorry. sad.gif

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