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ANSWERED:One-Time-Only Holiday Unfreeze Option

Should users be able to unfreeze previously-limited Holidays?  

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If a suggestion is not fair or beneficial to a majority of the player base should we support it?

Edited by Tawanda001

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If a susggetion is not beneficial to a majority of the player base should we support it?

Nope. Well, you can still support it, it's okay to support a cause alone, it just won't be implemented. But looking at the current poll, it's kinda 50/50. And a small percentage of those against are worried about future suggestions that will be shot down for some reason

 

edit: sorry, missd your edit, why wouldn't it be fair?

Edited by LaHaine

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If a suggestion is not fair or beneficial to a majority of the player base should we support it?

Due to muliclutches this would actually benefit a lot of people, really.

 

(oops bad bad I said I wouldn't come back here eeep)

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If a suggestion is not fair or beneficial to a majority of the player base should we support it?

By that reasoning the limits should have stayed on....

 

How is this suggestion unfair to any of the player base ? I actually can't get that. It can't really be beneficial to a MAJORITY of the player base, as so many affected were playing in the days when there were very few players at all - and I bet that heaps and heaps of people who don't even come to the forums - which is most people with scrolls, I believe ? - aren't even thinking about this at all. Does that mean those who ARE thinking about it must be denied something which is basically pretty harmless ?

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Not fair because...

Because you give a small handful of people a chance to undo something for a particular reason, but other people that made decisions based on that same reason don't get a do-over. Because one do-over is simple while the other is not.

 

I think we really are at cross purposes because I don't see how lifting the limits was unfair to anyone. The entire player base had the opportunity to increase their Christmas dragons and no one was left out or unable to take advantage of that. How is that NOT beneficial to the majority of the player base?

Edited by Tawanda001

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Not fair because...

Because you give a small handful of people a chance to undo something for a particular reason, but other people that made decisions based on that same reason don't get a do-over. Because one do-over is simple while the other is not.

What other decisions were made on that same reasoning ? The OPs were replaced - that's tragic (I WANT one !) but the spriter wanted that to happen and had that absolute right - and the frills didn't have the window to collect that they were supposed to - but other than that....

 

And those two things were outside TJ's control - unless he wanted to go back on saying that spriters had control over their own work. This isn't the same thing.

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Not fair because...

Because you give a small handful of people a chance to undo something for a particular reason, but other people that made decisions based on that same reason don't get a do-over. Because one do-over is simple while the other is not.

Unfreezing vs Released a holiday? If so, I see what you mean. But again, you can't please everyone. If you have an opportunity to please half the population, why not do it?

Edited by LaHaine

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Unfreezing vs Released a holiday? If so, I see what you mean. But again, you can't please everyone. If you have an opportunity to please half the population, why not do it?

Oh - got you. That's a tough one.

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Not fair because...

Because you give a small handful of people a chance to undo something for a particular reason, but other people that made decisions based on that same reason don't get a do-over. Because one do-over is simple while the other is not.

Again implying that if everything can't be fixed for everything, it's better to do nothing than to help a few.

 

The only other decision made based around the limits was probably releasing, right? And some of us have said that, provided there's a way to prove ownership (the wayback machine, a mate on the scroll, etc) and it's in the wild, then maybe there can be ways to get it back, but that'd be its own suggestion. I released a CB Winter Magi, one of my favorite Christmas dragons to date, but I'm not here whining that this can't be considered until that issue is solved too, now am I?

 

People can argue until they're blue in the face about what fairness means and how strict rules should be and all that jazz, but at the end of the day this suggestion helps a few people greatly, helps a far larger number of other people in the process due to increased eggs in the AP and gifting opportunities, and does no harm to anybody other than those with the viewpoint that second chances are terrible nasty things. There is no good reason to strike it down. Many of the other things brought up as "but what about this" have been suggested on their own and are pretty good ideas, but would take more time / convincing / coding to implement. Their possible delays and complications are not a good reason to boo at this one.

 

And yet here people are, making a big fuss over something that helps people and hurts no one in a game about fictional dragons.

 

<____>

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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I support this. It doesn't benefit me, but I don't see why other people shouldn't have the ability to change their minds on an uninformed decision which they made under different circumstances. The majority of people who look at the thread seem to agree, too - 60 votes out of 180 on the poll are negative.

 

I really haven't been able to see any good arguments for why this shouldn't go ahead. Most of them seem to relate to either how other suggestions haven't been implemented yet or to the fact that it benefits many people who approve of it. Yes, it does. Otherwise it wouldn't have been suggested. tongue.gif

 

If there are any arguments besides those I've mentioned, could someone possibly recap them for me? I'd be interested in debate, and I could probably be swayed to not support this if I saw a good reason. smile.gif

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Yes, vs released. I don't know, it just seems like favoring one group over the other, simply because one thing is easy to do and the other is not, doesn't seem like a good way to 'win friends and influence people'. Or in other words, why take a chance to PO one set of players in order to please another? It doesn't make good business sense to me.

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Yes, vs released. I don't know, it just seems like favoring one group over the other, simply because one thing is easy to do and the other is not, doesn't seem like a good way to 'win friends and influence people'. Or in other words, why take a chance to PO one set of players in order to please another? It doesn't make good business sense to me.

I see a group of people here who think unfreezing would be awesome.

 

I don't see a single person complaining that they're going to be really upset if this is done before the issue of released ones is looked at.

 

Ignoring a real group of players to cater to ones that might not exist? Seems like a bad business idea to me.

 

 

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Yes, vs released. I don't know, it just seems like favoring one group over the other, simply because one thing is easy to do and the other is not, doesn't seem like a good way to 'win friends and influence people'. Or in other words, why take a chance to PO one set of players in order to please another? It doesn't make good business sense to me.

Well... the case of released Holidays... how one can prove that they had 2 CBs in the beginning? Unless they bred their dragon to get hatchling later from the 2nd CB and released it afterwards, leaving the mate into scroll, there is no way to prove if the scroll owner had 2 CB Holidays in the first place. It would still leave those, who had 2 CBs in the first place but can't prove it, at disadvantage.

 

With unfreezing, you basically have the proof there. You have the CB or the lineaged Holiday that is frozen. And it's in the scroll.

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If there are any arguments besides those I've mentioned, could someone possibly recap them for me? I'd be interested in debate, and I could probably be swayed to not support this if I saw a good reason.
Because, well, rules are rules for a reason? (As rares are rares for a reason, as I've been told ad nauseam.) And, in order to change a rule, you should have some very good reason for a change, and that particular change? Edited by olympe

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There are people that did release their holidays in favor of better lineages or simply because they prefer a line from a spriter alt instead of a cb. And I can see how that can generate drama. One could argue that at least the frozen ones can be given a chance, so there's a positive side to this and a chance to please part of the population

 

 

@olympe: rules constantly change, for the better usually. I don't see how this would be a rule change for the worse, do you? What was the very good reason the limit got lifted? So people could hoard holidays and make pretty lineages and armies? If unfreezing is an option people can hoard even more holidays, maybe even more lower gens too

Edited by LaHaine

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Because, well, rules are rules for a reason? (As rares are rares for a reason, as I've been told ad nauseam.) And, in order to change a rule, you should have some very good reason for a change, and that particular change?

Yes, rules exist for a reason. What is the reason for freezing being permanent in DC? I would say it's to prevent exploitation by dodging around limits, not to stick it to people and force them to deal with past decisions made according to now-obsolete other rules. A one-time exception for a limited group of dragons is breaking the technical terms of freezing, sure, but it's hardly breaking the spirit of it. Freezing permanence exists to prevent the entire nature of the game (raising a certain number of dragons within a certain time limit) abused; since this exception would hardly do that, I see no reason an exception can't be made with the owner's permission.

 

"You can't run in the halls!"

 

"But I was doing it to escape a burning building!"

 

"I don't care, no running in the halls! If I make an exception for you I'll have to make one for everyone!"

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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It's not as if you'd risk your life or at least serious injury if you can't unfreeze a hatchling.

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Yes, vs released. I don't know, it just seems like favoring one group over the other, simply because one thing is easy to do and the other is not, doesn't seem like a good way to 'win friends and influence people'. Or in other words, why take a chance to PO one set of players in order to please another? It doesn't make good business sense to me.

Okay, if people are against this suggestion because it "favors" frozen hatchlings over released holidays, why don't you start a suggestion thread to be able to get back released holidays that were released under the old rules?

 

Seriously, *all* these objections seem to be "this and this can't/won't/wouldn't happen, so this suggestion shouldn't either", which.... Is not really an actual argument. Is there any *real* reason why people shouldn't have the ability to unfreeze hatchlings that were frozen under false pretenses, that *don't* have to do with "but I want this to!" or "it isn't fair 'cause we should get this too!"?

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Like, "Rules are rules for a reason," maybe?

Like, "It was your choice"?

Like, "You can still get more of these breeds if you want," perhaps?

Like, "It's not quite as fair as you seem to think," no?

Or, "It's not a necessity. Dragons won't die from it, players won't have any unfair disadvantages from this getting not implemented - so why?"

Like, "Just give me a good, valid reason," please?

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Like, "Rules are rules for a reason," maybe?

Like, "It was your choice"?

Like, "You can still get more of these breeds if you want," perhaps?

Like, "It's not quite as fair as you seem to think," no?

Or, "It's not a necessity. Dragons won't die from it, players won't have any unfair disadvantages from this getting not implemented - so why?"

Like, "Just give me a good, valid reason," please?

Most of these could be said to lifting the holiday limit as well...

 

1) Rules change all the time

2 & 3) We are talking about dragons we froze because of the rules at the time- Maybe we didn't wantto freeze them but we had to to complete scroll goals

4) Why? Why not fair? If this gets implemented there's a chance other things (similar things) you guys are asking for get implemented too

5) Lifting the limit wasn't a necessity either and we were just fine with a limit of 2, but it still got implemented didn't it? It doesn't bring disadvantages and it brings advantages, it's positive

6) Because totally legit reasons are being given to defend those who are against it...

Edited by LaHaine

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1) Some do. Others don't.

2&3) You still did it, being warned that the action was irreversible. Now, what's wrong with you having the frozen hatchling to prove it?

4) Think of all the other things where your line of argument might apply. But please don't discuss them here, they're meant to have their own threads... (As I've seen in writing repeatedly.)

5) It wasn't a necessity, the game would have gone on without. Yet the situation became bad and worse every year: Walls of holiday eggs nobody could claim, numerous people refusing to breed their dragons or complaining that the offspring of their dragons has vanished without ever getting a single view. Most of the players being left out of a big part of what makes holiday events fun: Catching special dragons. DC always has been about catching and raising dragons, and - for the most part - breeding dragons. With many holiday eggs dying with no views whatsoever, this situation created a problem with the core of what DC is.

6) Thinking ahead of potential problems isn't legit. Not at all. Pointing out flaws in people's logic isn't legit, either. Neither is asking why a reasonable rule should be changed. /sarcasm

Edited by olympe

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1) What makes this one THE one that can't change then?

 

2 & 3) Thing is, there was a little message that also told me I could only get TWO of a holiday breed. Now I can get more! Why can't that irreversible message also disappear or turn into something else? What is making it special?

 

4) Wut? You guys wanted to discuss it here, so we discussed it here a few pages back. I assumed you guys were saying it isn't fair because other things aren't going to be implemented, so I was explaining that those other things *you guys mentioned* have a chance of getting implemented. Apologize if my english just sucks, but I was trying to communicate/explain using the most common complaints/examples used just like a page before

 

5) Allowing unfreezing of holidays, it will allow us to breed them too and create more eggs for others to catch, which is the purpose of DC like you said. No, it isn't urgent. No, it's not a big impact. Yes, it would be an extra. Yes, it would make some people happy. No, it wouldn't hurt anyone. What bad is there in adding a little extra?

 

6) Future suggestions isn't potential problems. Suggestions aren't problems, TJ can come in at any time and close it on us with a big fat "lol no.". I jsut think it's silly to refuse this suggestion because "rules never change" (they change all the time in DC), because this doesn't benefit everyone (benefits some people and doesn't break the game for anybody), because other suggestions may arise and get shot down (features are rejected and accepted all the time, I don't see a problem in future suggestions arising from this implementation - this suggestion thread came from the fact the limit was lifted, which was a previous suggestion)

Edited by LaHaine

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I don't know what else to say that LaHaine hasn't said. And said wonderfully, I might add.

 

Every single "reason" why this suggestion shouldn't be implemented also has valid arguments refuting that reason. If this suggestion is "lol no"ed by TJ, so be it. But until then, it is a suggestion that benefits many users and hurts absolutely no users.

 

(And as other people have said, benefiting "many" users is better then benefiting none. There's absolutely no reason to shoot down a suggestion because it won't benefit *everyone*. Teleport doesn't benefit people who don't trade, but that doesn't mean anything, does it?)

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I think in situations like this it can be helpful to put emotions aside and look at it from a game-mechanic perspective. Asking questions like: Is the change necessary? Does the change have things to recommend it? Will it break the game?

 

I don't think the change is necessary. There's no guarantee that aspects of dragcave will always stay the same so we can't assume our best choices at the time would always stay the best choices. If the change doesn't happen, then people who froze holiday dragons will continue on as they expected when they froze their dragons, with the added benefit of being able to collect more holiday dragons. I don't think this is a horrible situation.

 

I do, however, think the change has things to recommend it. I look at the change in and of itself (so at this stage not getting bogged down in ideas of the exact ways it could be implemented) and I see definite benefits. People made their choices under a set of circumstances that have now changed. I think it can decrease resentment that people may have that they would have made different choices if only they'd known (and I think it's not at all valid to say "well people could have guessed from what TJ has said in the past" because not everyone is on the forums and even people who are may not have kept track of everything). I think the change could help people feel more confident in their ability to make choices in the game - because even though we know that dragcave won't always stay the same, I bet most people make their choices under the subconscious assumption that things will be relatively consistent - and even feel more excited about the game.

 

I feel like unless there's compelling (that is, game-breaking) reasons to not implement a change that would be called for based on other changes, the default should be to make the change even if it's not strictly "necessary".

 

So, is it game-breaking?

 

Personally, I don't know the answer to that for sure, in great part because I've never used freezing. But it seems to me that the only real game-breaking aspect would be if people could trade their un-frozen dragons - and people have suggested the simple solution of not making them tradeable. I feel like most other concerns ("exact ways it could be implemented" such as should it be a one-time offer / how long should the offer last, how would it be communicated to players, etc) are just tweaks to the idea - there would probably be ways to implement the change in a game-breaking fashion but I think in general people have been coming up with/will be able to come up with ideas for these aspects that are perfectly fine.

 

Another game-mechanics-related issue (but not a game-breaking issue) that I've taken from this thread is whether or not this would be an "endorsement" by the game of the idea that caveborn dragons are more valuable than lineaged dragons. I don't think this is what the game would be saying at all. Let's assume that most people who would take advantage of the change would do it to un-freeze caveborns for the purpose of instead freezing lineaged dragons. But that's not truly what the change is about - instead, the change would be about giving people the ability to make choices based on new info. And some people would use that to unfreeze things based on stolen-on dates, or the desire to have certain codes be breedable, or other reasons, and the game would be endorsing all of these new choices.

 

I think it's unnecessary to be overly concerned at this stage with other ideas that aren't this one. I also think it's unnecessary to be hung up on the idea "but freezing is permanent" and being unwilling to consider that *obviously* this game is changeable - we've all seen that it is. (Unless people are concerned about the permanent aspect of freezing in a roleplay/in-cave-universe perspective, in which case I believe there will be people creative enough to find roleplay situations that work to explain the change.)

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Most of these could be said to lifting the holiday limit as well...

 

The Holiday limit was an irregularity within the game itself, as it artificially restricted the number of dragons of that breed. The difference is, though - lifting the Holiday limit changes the gameplay only for the future, while unfreezing is a retroactive change. Rule changes should only affect future actions, not past ones.

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