Tombstones & Lineages: Multiple Lineage Views

[LibbyLishly]

I hope not because the tombstones are really nice and I like to have them in my lineage view.

 

We are not pirates so the pirate symbol is not really appropriate. We should stick with a symbol that is culturally universal.

...That was my point. Skull and Crossbones - or even just a skull - has long been considered a symbol of death in many cultures. It's not even remotely JUST a pirate symbol; it's just that it's a very well known symbol that wasn't even on a lot of pirates' flags (many of them just flew a black flag). Those who used any kind of skull, crossbones, or skeleton did so because it was considered a symbol of death by other people. It's still in use to indicate warnings of death on bottles of toxic chemicals, and, gee, we're not pirates but we sure understand what it means.

 

Here, here, here, and here (if you don't accept Wikipedia as an overview, I recommend Google).

 

I don't want to lose tombstones either because I think intentional deadlines are pretty cool. However, I DO like the idea of being able to see a lineage as it would be if the dragons weren't dead, yet still have a symbol or a mark to indicate that they are. If that's what you oppose, say that, because I'm not sure you understand what we're talking about.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If no universal symbol can be agreed on, I still think a little red mark (*, probably) with a disclaimer at the bottom of the lineage view that * = deceased would be fine.

 

Any more thoughts on the slightly simpler idea of "whatever a lineage looks like when you receive it is always what you see?"

 

 

[LibbyLishly]

If no universal symbol can be agreed on, I still think a little red mark (*, probably) with a disclaimer at the bottom of the lineage view that * = deceased would be fine.

 

Any more thoughts on the slightly simpler idea of "whatever a lineage looks like when you receive it is always what you see?"

I'd personally avoid introducing other colors into the mix, simply because it could really clash with the color scheme (so superficial, I know!). If the mark were black it would still probably be noticeable enough to someone who was looking for them.

 

I'm uncomfortable with the original lineage always being what you see - I want options. I'd like to see the lineage as it currently stands (tombstones and all), plus an option to view lineage as originally received. For me, I'd prefer that the tombstone version be default - but honestly, I wouldn't mind being able to set the default for each individual dragon, rather than a scroll-wide or site-wide default.

[danicast]

...That was my point. Skull and Crossbones - or even just a skull - has long been considered a symbol of death in many cultures. It's not even remotely JUST a pirate symbol; it's just that it's a very well known symbol that wasn't even on a lot of pirates' flags (many of them just flew a black flag). Those who used any kind of skull, crossbones, or skeleton did so because it was considered a symbol of death by other people. It's still in use to indicate warnings of death on bottles of toxic chemicals, and, gee, we're not pirates but we sure understand what it means.

 

Here, here, here, and here (if you don't accept Wikipedia as an overview, I recommend Google).

 

I don't want to lose tombstones either because I think intentional deadlines are pretty cool. However, I DO like the idea of being able to see a lineage as it would be if the dragons weren't dead, yet still have a symbol or a mark to indicate that they are. If that's what you oppose, say that, because I'm not sure you understand what we're talking about.

I think we don't need another change in lineage view, that's all. I think it works fine as it is right now.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/d63r2

this tombstone is actually a zombie. The line looks great both when the zombie is in the "dead state" and when the zombie is awake.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/Ecn4d

this wasn't a dead line when I got, it was a 12th generation but the owner of the parent decided to kill the shimmer and then it became a dead line. I can see the line as a dead line or click the tombstone and see the whole shimmer line. In the beginning this was awkward to me because I wasn't used to be able to click on tombstones but now I like it.

 

That's why I don't see the need to change anything, the tombstones are fine.

[Mondat]

I would be comfortable with either a cross or a skull and crossbones (I lean toward the latter because PIRATES). Would that mess things up for folks who look for lineages with names of an exact length, though?

I took a closer look at the thread and found out that there have been similar suggestions already, oops - sorry Cyradis.

 

Cyradis:

I have seen family trees IRL that do indicate in some way that a particular individual is deceased, so some marker is appropriate.

But some people will get upset if dead ancestors aren't indicated some way in the full view, and others will get very upset if its indicated in a very obvious way, and a little star after the name, or the name / code in itallics, would do that. Or a small tombstone after the name? Or as you said, a small one in the corner of the image might work.

ADP:

Replace dead dragon's names with (deceased). I think the other idea is better, though.

 

For folks who are concerned for their lineages because of the length of names...I think there are ways to work it out. Like others said, a small symbol in the corner or above the dead dragon's image (centered).

There are many things we could suggest - maybe someone could create some examples...? I unfortunately fail at such things.

I personally do not care much about it, but I would prefer having any marks which shows that there are dead dragons in the "family tree" view over having none at all.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

http://dragcave.net/lineage/Ecn4d

this wasn't a dead line when I got, it was a 12th generation but the owner of the parent decided to kill the shimmer and then it became a dead line. I can see the line as a dead line or click the tombstone and see the whole shimmer line. In the beginning this was awkward to me because I wasn't used to be able to click on tombstones but now I like it.

 

That's why I don't see the need to change anything, the tombstones are fine.

They're really not. A single mid-generation tombstone poked in this (or any other high generation line I've collaborated / traded / worked with others on) is instantly going to destroy the look of it. Being able to look past the tombstone and confirm it used to be pretty isn't going to actually make it look pretty again. :/

 

And for those of us who do find such things ruin the looks of lineages, it gives people who later decide they don't like us a very nice way to ruin our days or cheat us out of stuff we've paid them for.

[JavaTigress]

They're really not. A single mid-generation tombstone poked in this (or any other high generation line I've collaborated / traded / worked with others on) is instantly going to destroy the look of it. Being able to look past the tombstone and confirm it used to be pretty isn't going to actually make it look pretty again. :/

 

And for those of us who do find such things ruin the looks of lineages, it gives people who later decide they don't like us a very nice way to ruin our days or cheat us out of stuff we've paid them for.

This. The thing is that some people DO mind those tombstones in their lineages... and having an option on whether or not to see the lineage as it was is a good thing. Like I said, no one is making anyone use the feature if they actually do LIKE the to bstones better. Folks like that would be perfectly able to see their lineages as they have always done... complete with tombstones. Assuming I understand the suggestion correctly, that is.

 

Just... it'd take some power away from trolls, that is all. And less power for trolls is a good thing.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silverswift

[cyradis4]

I think we don't need another change in lineage view, that's all. I think it works fine as it is right now.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/d63r2

this tombstone is actually a zombie. The line looks great both when the zombie is in the "dead state" and when the zombie is awake.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/Ecn4d

this wasn't a dead line when I got, it was a 12th generation but the owner of the parent decided to kill the shimmer and then it became a dead line. I can see the line as a dead line or click the tombstone and see the whole shimmer line. In the beginning this was awkward to me because I wasn't used to be able to click on tombstones but now I like it.

 

That's why I don't see the need to change anything, the tombstones are fine.

Tombstones are NOT fine.

 

Read the beginning of the thread better, and you will see examples of why they are not fine.

 

Some intentional lineages are pretty with tombstones. But a badly placed tombstone can wipe out years of work on a lineage, can destroy how the lineage looks, and makes absolutely no sense. Like I said in the first post, just because my grandmother is dead doesn't mean I forgot about my great grand parents!

 

So the idea behind this thread is to chart a middle ground:

Have the ability to see the pretty deadlines

AND

Protect people from accidental / malicious destruction of lineages

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Mondat]

They're really not. A single mid-generation tombstone poked in this (or any other high generation line I've collaborated / traded / worked with others on) is instantly going to destroy the look of it. Being able to look past the tombstone and confirm it used to be pretty isn't going to actually make it look pretty again. :/

 

And for those of us who do find such things ruin the looks of lineages, it gives people who later decide they don't like us a very nice way to ruin our days or cheat us out of stuff we've paid them for.

It's all just personal preferences but seeing as tombstonelovers are going to keep their tombstones - there would be just an addition if this suggestion got implemented - arguing over personal preferences isn't helpful and might cause unnecessary stress.

 

As multiple lineage views would be completely optional I do not see any valid cons.

It is rather a positive idea - you can avoid being cheated in trades by viewing the true lineage and even if a person kills ancestors of the dragon you received you still can view the lineage as if nothing happened.

 

I actually would need an optional lineage view for my deadline project, as it's not inbred and my memory isn't that good. If I use further 4 messy Shimmers to continue my lineage things might get more complicated.

If I could see everything with one click it would be more convenient.

[Rosedamai]

Wasn't there a suggestion somewhere proposing a different tombstone sprite than the "normal" one we have?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Wasn't there a suggestion somewhere proposing a different tombstone sprite than the "normal" one we have?

I know they were remaking fancy ones to mark Zombies, but I think that was it.

 

[cyradis4]

Wasn't there a suggestion somewhere proposing a different tombstone sprite than the "normal" one we have?

Probably, there've been a lot of suggestions regarding deadlines. This suggestion, however, doesn't comment one way or another about the tombstone sprite itself.

 

The comment about the skull and crossbones vis a vis a cross vis a vis a red dot was in response to this:

 

In the suggestion, the dead ancestors would show with their sprite image and full lineage or a tombstone and truncated lineage depending on the view selected (the user selects the default view for that dragon, that everyone sees. But anyone can click on one of the other buttons to see a different view). However, a red dot would give a visual indicator, regardless of lineage view, that that the ancestor was deceased.

 

So, indead of a red dot, you could use something else. Bold text, italic text, underlined text, different text, a cross, or a small skull and crossbones. The point is to give a visual indication (that is unobtrusive) that one of the dragon's ancestors is deceased.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[edwardelricfreak]

Hah, I had a dream last night about this feature being implemented and I was clicking on the different options.

 

Please no crosses denoting a dragon is dead. I don't think a colored dot is good either, even with the note at the bottom of the page or whatever. I'm in favor of just a skull (not with crossbones. It's just not necessary, though I wouldn't care if they were implemented). Skulls even by themselves are pretty universal symbols of death. There's a reason why, in pretty much every videogame with symbols for status effects, death is marked by a skull. I think a simple little skull would be perfect for saying "hey, this dragon is currently dead!". If it's not clear enough, there can still be a little note.

[Shamiir]

Back in one of the other tombstone discussions, I raised a suggestion re a button to disable the kill action. But some wanted to keep the option open to kill their dragon at a later date...

So now I will suggest a variation on that idea in the hope that we can find something simpler than all the lineage view options.

 

On the actions page, we have:

Kill Kill the dragon. (You can use this action 5 more times before you must wait for a few weeks)

Together with this line (below?), we would have a one time only action box selecting the kill view for that dragon. The options would be either a. Image or b. Tombstone.

 

If set to Image, then the dragons breed image would be displayed in place of the tombstone, thus protecting that part of all lineages sold. That dragons page would carry a symbol to denote that its image is protected.

 

This would not solve past issues but there were very good BSA suggestions to solve those.

_________________________________

 

Edit in reply to Silverswift below (in an attempt not to junk up the topic, which is for 'Multiple Lineage Views'):

A very valid point, Silverswift. Guess I'm always looking first at the point of view of the genuine tombstone lineage creator. In my mind, I'm rather pro the research BSA already suggested to repair any malicious damage, past and future.

So, I'm still not in support of multiple views.

 

Edited July 14, 2014 by Shamiir

[Obscure_Trash]

Probably, there've been a lot of suggestions regarding deadlines. This suggestion, however, doesn't comment one way or another about the tombstone sprite itself.

 

The comment about the skull and crossbones vis a vis a cross vis a vis a red dot was in response to this:

 

In the suggestion, the dead ancestors would show with their sprite image and full lineage or a tombstone and truncated lineage depending on the view selected (the user selects the default view for that dragon, that everyone sees. But anyone can click on one of the other buttons to see a different view). However, a red dot would give a visual indicator, regardless of lineage view, that that the ancestor was deceased.

 

So, indead of a red dot, you could use something else. Bold text, italic text, underlined text, different text, a cross, or a small skull and crossbones. The point is to give a visual indication (that is unobtrusive) that one of the dragon's ancestors is deceased.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I was not really for this suggestion until I saw this graphic. I would be fine with having a "family tree" and "current status" (although I'm trying to think of a 'cooler' term than current status and failing) view. I don't think having three is necessary, nor do I think the mark on the tombstone is really important. I think it's okay to set in your defaults which view you want to see. Perhaps an option on the breed page to toggle on/off for individual dragons but I think a mass thing is okay.

 

I think due to the way dead dragons used to work, this can't work retroactively, but if dead dragon info is being kept anyway, then why not?

[JavaTigress]

Back in one of the other tombstone discussions, I raised a suggestion re a button to disable the kill action. But some wanted to keep the option open to kill their dragon at a later date...

So now I will suggest a variation on that idea in the hope that we can find something simpler than all the lineage view options.

 

On the actions page, we have:

Kill Kill the dragon. (You can use this action 5 more times before you must wait for a few weeks)

Together with this line (below?), we would have a one time only action box selecting the kill view for that dragon. The options would be either a. Image or b. Tombstone.

 

If set to Image, then the dragons breed image would be displayed in place of the tombstone, thus protecting that part of all lineages sold. That dragons page would carry a symbol to denote that its image is protected.

 

This would not solve past issues but there were very good BSA suggestions to solve those.

The trouble with this suggestion is that, if I understand it right, it leaves it entirely up to the person killing the dragon.

 

This is wrong, IMO, for one important reason, not everyone is going to CARE how their actions affect others... indeed some people will still specifically want to mess with others and ruin their day... and some may not even realize how important their dragon is to another player's lineage. While some people certainly might save the dragons image like this, for other's sake, not everyone will. If they are killing the dragon specifically to troll people, they certainly aren't going to select the 'Image' Option I am thinking. Some people are just vicious and spiteful; the fact that we have viewbombers proves that point. So... ultimately it still leaves the option for trouble wide open, IMO, and wouldn't really solve the issue. Again, that is as far as I understand your suggestion. IF I am wrong about what you are suggesting then please do correct me and I might reconsider; unfortunately, I like the OPs idea better, although this is certainly simpler. I'd like to see the power to ruin other people's lineages for them taken away from trolls ENTIRELY.

 

Just my two cents, for whatever they may be worth.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Silverswift

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Supporting this still. I just ran into yet another sad story of people using lineage changes to screw people over; someone traded a 2g Holly for a 2g Prize, then the prize owner killed the Prize's mate on them :/

[cyradis4]

It wasn't just that one person, either. >.< There were a large number of very popular lines which were also altered.

 

I really hope we can get something like this implemented.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Please this is important

 

I actually wanted to kill a dragon myself lately but didn't because I didn't want to shoot others in the foot, so this is useful from that angle as well.

Edited June 6, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Marrionetta]

It's pretty hard to formulate an objection to a suggestion wherein every presented choice is optional.

 

I suppose that I personally prefer dead-lines as they are now.

[Fuzzbucket]

It's pretty hard to formulate an objection to a suggestion wherein every presented choice is optional.

 

I suppose that I personally prefer dead-lines as they are now.

I know what you mean. But what I would LIKE would be for everyone to be happy - including those like me, who took years to build up a true terminally inbred deadline with the intent of losing the lineage (which no-one would ever want and which I shall never breed !) able to have them show as a PROPER deadline.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/73DVe Waaaah ! I was JUST too late, too

 

MAYBE it could be set up so that it showed with no tombstone lineages for ME, but for anyone receiving a baby, THAT would show it all ?

[cyradis4]

I know what you mean. But what I would LIKE would be for everyone to be happy - including those like me, who took years to build up a true terminally inbred deadline with the intent of losing the lineage (which no-one would ever want and which I shall never breed !) able to have them show as a PROPER deadline.

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/73DVe Waaaah ! I was JUST too late, too

 

MAYBE it could be set up so that it showed with no tombstone lineages for ME, but for anyone receiving a baby, THAT would show it all ?

Ummm..... This is setup so that each person can set how everyone else views the lineages of dragons *on their own scroll*, with the option of seeing the full thing. Oh, you could probably make it so that a dragon on your scroll is viewed the way you want it by everyone else, but if someone gets a baby from it they can see the full lineage. I prefer the toggle, but honestly, the key point is:

 

Let the Scroll Owner determine how everyone will view the full lineage of dragons on the Scroll Owner's scroll.

 

There's also the Nilia BSA, Research I think it was? I like that one too.

 

But yea, the deadliners will have to give a little ground in order for everyone to be closer to happy. Right now, the deadlines have their cake and can eat it, too. As was pointed out earlier.... You can trade boatloads of metals for a very valuable dragon... Only to have its value completely destroyed before it even grows up (yes, that has happened). I view it as legitimized scamming, myself.

 

Something does need to be done to even things out a bit. Right now, the rules of DC are that each person can play how they want, and you aren't allowed to dictate to them how they will play. And yet.... Deadliners are doing JUST THAT every time they kill a dragon who has current offspring on other scrolls.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Zeditha]

First of all, I'd like to just say I haven't read the full thread. I read the first post and had an idea. Once the idea is down I'll read and respond to the posts in the last page.

Well, let's begin!

 

The OP mentioned a fourth option that would be needed. This could be difficult to code, but a 'lineage editor' action could be added. In the lineage editor, you are shown the dragon's lineage, in 'full lineage' mode. However, instead of linking to view pages, the sprites in the tree could link to or open a small set of options.

 

For a live dragon, there are 2 options: 'show tombstone if killed' and 'keep alive'. This would allow users to protect dragons in lineages in advance, or to leave them at the default 'show ts if killed' if they want the linege to be accurate.

 

A dead dragon has a different set of options:

- show tombstone. This cuts off the lineage at that dragon, as it currently does for all dead dragons.

- show lineage. This shows the lineage as it does in the full lineage mode.

- permanent tombstone. This shows a tombstone and cuts off the lineage like in 'show tombstone' mode, but the limeage behind it doesn't reappear in full-lineage mode.

- permanent lineage. Similar to the permanent tombstone, this shows the lineage in all modes.

[cyradis4]

First of all, I'd like to just say I haven't read the full thread. I read the first post and had an idea. Once the idea is down I'll read and respond to the posts in the last page.

Well, let's begin!

 

The OP mentioned a fourth option that would be needed. This could be difficult to code, but a 'lineage editor' action could be added. In the lineage editor, you are shown the dragon's lineage, in 'full lineage' mode. However, instead of linking to view pages, the sprites in the tree could link to or open a small set of options.

 

For a live dragon, there are 2 options: 'show tombstone if killed' and 'keep alive'. This would allow users to protect dragons in lineages in advance, or to leave them at the default 'show ts if killed' if they want the linege to be accurate.

 

A dead dragon has a different set of options:

- show tombstone. This cuts off the lineage at that dragon, as it currently does for all dead dragons.

- show lineage. This shows the lineage as it does in the full lineage mode.

- permanent tombstone. This shows a tombstone and cuts off the lineage like in 'show tombstone' mode, but the limeage behind it doesn't reappear in full-lineage mode.

- permanent lineage. Similar to the permanent tombstone, this shows the lineage in all modes.

An interesting idea! So long as owners of the OFFSPRING of a dragon have the option of viewing the full lineage regardless of the settings in the parent's lineage, I can add it to the OP.

 

But anything that allows 1 user to permanently alter how the offspring's lineages are viewed puts us right back into the same boat we are now.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I was not really for this suggestion until I saw this graphic. I would be fine with having a "family tree" and "current status" (although I'm trying to think of a 'cooler' term than current status and failing) view. I don't think having three is necessary, nor do I think the mark on the tombstone is really important. I think it's okay to set in your defaults which view you want to see. Perhaps an option on the breed page to toggle on/off for individual dragons but I think a mass thing is okay.

 

I think due to the way dead dragons used to work, this can't work retroactively, but if dead dragon info is being kept anyway, then why not?

I wouldn't mind it this got implemented so long as there is no way for it to change preexisting dead lines.

For example, I did some research, and this line here would be absolutely ruined if the dead dragon's line was viewable;

http://dragcave.net/lineage/eDBEi