Tombstones & Lineages: Multiple Lineage Views

[angelicdragonpuppy]

This still needs to be a thing. IOUs aren't allowed (in trade posts, anyway) exactly because people can be cheated, yet the current system still allows this to happen--people can be traded beautiful lines only to have tombstones poked in them and old ancestors buried due to malice (or even plain forgetfulness). Trades for lineaged Holidays and Prizes, which of course many players, especially new ones, must rely on, can never be 100% guaranteed to stay as they are. In a game where lineages are important to so many people--indeed, even the main reason many older players keep playing--this is a really sorry state of things, to say nothing of the fact that dragons dying = records being wiped makes little logical sense!

 

This suggestion seems like a perfect compromise for people who like deadlines and those who don't, and I would dearly love to see it added.

[Terces]

Adding my voice in favor of this idea. I don't feel that it is that complicated, personally. DC players catch on to new things quickly.

[lindsy95]

I think the suggestion is excellent. I don't care for lineages at all, but if anything, this is more realistic, if I were to record my pet's ancestry, the parent or ancestor dieing wouldn't magically make the lineage disappear.

[Fuzzbucket]

How about (says she who took years to build a deadend only to have it ruined when the new way came in just weeks before the last pair was bred...)

 

The full lineage only shows/can only be seen if a dragon is gifted or traded - as in moves to another scroll. So my lovely thing:

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/73DVe

 

would look as I intended for ever and to anyone looking, as I never ever planned to pass anything from him to anyone else. But if I bred a sibling - and passed it on - THAT would show everything.

Edited July 1, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Frodo]

How about (says she who took years to build a deadend only to have it ruined when the new way came in just weeks before the last pair was bred...)

 

The full lineage only shows/can only be seen if a dragon is gifted or traded - as in moves to another scroll. So my lovely thing:

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/73DVe

 

would look as I intended for ever and to anyone looking, as I never ever planned to pass anything from him to anyone else. But if I bred a sibling - and passed it on - THAT would show everything.

Makes me sad to see all those gravestones

[olympe]

Personally, this system sounds pretty complicated. I'm not quite as worried about TJ's coding ability as about his willingness to code something that half the player base will have endless questions about.

 

Also, I'm not quite comfortable with having to click several buttons in order to see a lineage - or not.

 

I'd prefer it if deadlines would only work as long as the offspring is still an egg. It'd make sense if the young dragon within the egg wouldn't remember its parents under such circumstances. However, adults that have various offspring themselves already shouldn't suddenly "forget" who their parents were.

 

Sure, this would make deadlines much harder to create and thus limit them to quite some extent. But I see it as a much better compromise than what the OP suggests - if only because it's simple.

[edwardelricfreak]

Makes me sad to see all those gravestones

It's only two dragons...

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think it would work if the lineage just stayed as it was when you received it.

 

You make deadlines, and trade / gift them? People who are getting it saw, knew, and accepted that they were getting a deadline. It's what they get and what they keep.

 

You trade someone for a normal dragon? Even if they kill the parents or later change the names*, the record you got stays exactly as it was when you received it.

 

IMO this would be an ideal solution because what you get is what you keep and what you give others is exactly what they see.

 

*While name changes are less drastic in lineages than killing, they can still cause negative effects (like if someone suddenly gives parents very stupid names to spite you, a dragon loses its name, or if the name length suddenly stretches out the lineage greatly. I've been very proud of the compact look of this lineage for a long time, but recently one of the CB Gold's names was changed to something very long and really messed up the look I was hoping for. It's since changed back to something shorter and restored that nice even look, but yah--for a while it was something I'd never have traded for or used). However, since we wouldn't want people getting confused about there being two dragons with the same name, perhaps there could be some type of marker in the name, like a little black * or ', indicating the name had changed. A red one could be used for dead ancestors as well, perhaps? Something unobtrusive but telling...

Edited July 1, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[LibbyLishly]

I'm definitely in favor of having the option of viewing a lineage as originally received. I'd like to still be able to see and create intentional deadlines with minimum fuss, and would like to see if changes happen in my existing dragon's lineage, but at the same time I don't think the record should be expunged just like that.

[ZzelaBusya]

cyradis4, you have used my username in the first post without giving any reference as to why you even state it. You have placed it there out of context, and while I assume you must have done so because of some other posts of mine in another place, I had not yet said anything about my attitude towards the topic in this thread so far, so it's rather confusing... I wish I had noticed that earlier.

 

Anyway, speaking of my attitude, my ideas about the matter can be summarised by the following posts from another thread in a related suggestion:

It's clear that some people may rename/name/unname/kill/zombify/whatever some dragons in the line, but to me, personally, it has always been common sense that whenever you trade for a dragon, there is always a possibility of that happening and therefore it's a risk to accept when you do it.

 

If you'd like to be certain nothing will happen to any dragons in the line, I would recommend building lineages with dragons that all belong to you.

 

To be short, the risks of the lineage changing its view with time, because of any actions applied to dragons in it, has always seemed normal to me, and the suggestion in question seems like unnecessary hassle to me.

I just think that the analogy ("painting") angelicdragonpuppy has provided is incorrect. Because, to be fair, when you get a lineaged dragon from someone else, you do not receive the whole "painting", you get a part of the result, so to speak. I believe it's perfectly acceptable if the owners of the other parts edit them as they please afterwards. The whole lineage isn't *yours* after all, unless you have made all of it yourself.

 

I own a stairstep Shimmer a 2nd gen ancestor of which was killed at one point. I'm not claiming I like that fact, but nevertheless I simply accepted it as a part of the game, because it wasn't my 2nd gen Shimmer and whenever I get something via trading, something similar may happen - nobody has promised me that they won't do anything to their dragon.

 

I'll state once again, if you trade for something you should accept the risk of the lineage and its view being altered later, I think.

One of the reasons why this suggestion is alarming to me is that, once again, it implies that "good-lineaged" dragons are in some way better than any others and therefore deserve special treatment of some sort (because clearly noboddy here is defending some inbred Guardian that later got a dead ancestor in the line!), while technically they are all the same.

 

Let's imagine some bad, bad person cruelly ruined your checker or something... Well, now what? I feel sorry for you, but nothing is stated out there that people have to care about how lineages of their dragons' offsprings look like, and therefore it's perfectly normal! From the point of view of the game, the dragon doesn't lose any of its characteristics just because its lineage view got changed, so I really see no point in changing things just because some people give value to lineages that look good - apart from that let me mention that "good" is a very relative term in this case, and also some (I daresay most) users who play DC may not even care about lines at all.

 

We already have a lineage *viewer*, but I don't think that the viewer should be altered in some sort just because someone might get a traumatic experience having used the viewer to discover a killed/renamed dragon in the line the offspring of which they own.

ZzelaBusya:

Answer me this: Is it just? Letting you alter my dragons?

YES, absolutely. Because the lineage in question has my input and therefore I may take part in altering it as I want, as well as any other users who own the ancestor of that dragon of yours.

It IS in the rules: Once a dragon leaves your scroll, you have no control over it.

Why sure, once a dragon I bred leaves my scroll I certainly have no control over it. The new owner can breed it as they like, they can freeze it, kill it, name it, neglect it, anything. But I still have control over my part of the lineage, I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to accept that. By changing something on my dragons I do not affect *your dragon*, your dragon as it is is perfectly alright.

 

As I said, a lineage isn't something you own, unless you are the only person who worked on it.

The point of the lineage viewer is to show the ancestors of a certain dragon, the current state of how things are, the breed, name and other characteristics of the parents/grandparents/etc. What's the point in the whole option if, as a result of this suggestion being implemented, it would display *false information* having to do with the ancestry? It kinda contradicts the whole purpose of the viewer, I think!

 

I have been, and still am, strongly against suggestions of that sort. They have a potential to create a big mess and make things a lot more complicated than they should be, plus a feature like that would not only protect but even encourage misinformation in one way or another, and I don't see it as a healthy addition to the site, optional or not.

Edited July 1, 2014 by ZzelaBusya

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I really fail to see how an accurate representation of a dragon's pedigree (or at least the one you got when you received it) could possibly be more misinformation than pretending those dragons never existed / that your records could be wiped due to what someone else did with their dragons. Do people call you a liar and a cheat for showing them a picture of your dead great great grandparents? :/

 

The current assumption, yes, is that no trade is safe--but it's a sorry assumption and a weak point of the game that should be corrected. Especially when we can't even post we accept IOUs in trade posts for fear of people being cheated!

[ZzelaBusya]

I really fail to see how an accurate representation of a dragon's pedigree (or at least the one you got when you received it) could possibly be more misinformation than pretending those dragons never existed / that your records could be wiped due to what someone else did with their dragons. Do people call you a liar and a cheat for showing them a picture of your dead great great grandparents? :/

If you are unhappy about the way the site currently displays dead dragons, it may make more sense to create a suggestion to eliminate tombstones in lineages altogether, aka disable dead lines, rather than create a mess of various lineage view types.

 

I'd appreciate it if you didn't create parallels with real-life situations now, your last statement appeals to emotions and that's hardly efficient.

[edwardelricfreak]

I do support the idea. I like people being able to enjoy how lineages look. I do think that it's fine that, if a dragon is set to be shown as "Current" by the owner, that the default setting for that dragon when someone else sees it is the "Current" view, as the owner wishes.

 

And by default, I think it makes sense to have all views set as "Current", so it's essentially just like how it is now.

 

I rather like seeing whole lineages in some cases and not in others. I don't like the idea of someone killing something and me being unable to see what was originally there in certain cases, especially if I know that I saw more dragons at one point in time.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If you are unhappy about the way the site currently displays dead dragons, it may make more sense to create a suggestion to eliminate tombstones in lineages altogether, aka disable dead lines, rather than create a mess of various lineage view types.

 

I'd appreciate it if you didn't create parallels with real-life situations now, your last statement appeals to emotions and that's hardly efficient.

Because that's making an unfair situation unfair to someone else, not fixing it. While the way deadlines are handled is really weird and should've never been that way in the first place, it is what it is and shouldn't be wiped at the expense of those who've used it. Most of us could handle "lineages will always look as they look when you get them" without being too confused, the help section and forum can cover the rest, and both lineages can at last exist together nicely.

 

It's not an appeal to emotion, it's fact. Why would it matter if a dragon in a line is alive or dead, anymore than your own ancestors do to your lineage? Pedigree has nothing to do with living status. And if there were a few people who wanted to know for whatever reason, the little indicator in the name (plus an indication of what said symbols meant somewhere on the page) prevents any deception.

[Fuzzbucket]

It's only two dragons...

Yeah ! Just two. No worse than zombifying !

 

My ORIGINAL idea was (I was going to remove their names when I was done, but there seemed no point in the end) I wanted to see if - after they'd been dead a long while, they would still show as horrifyingly inbred... I was just curious...

[cyradis4]

There actually have been suggestions to completely remove tombstones, but that is unfair to those who use deadlines. I'd prefer to find a way that penalizes everyone as little as possible. Since the two sides are opposite, there is no way to satisfy both. Simply put, many vocal deadliners want the ability to destroy the lineages of dragons NOT on their scroll. And many vocal lineagers want to preserve their lineages as they were when they got them. So, since there really isn't a way to make both sides happy at the same time, some sort of compromise is needed. Compromising when the two views are as opposite as they are is... challenging.

 

There's also a suggestion that lineages stay as they were when they arrived on a person's scroll. I forget what its called, but I've posted in and support it, too.

 

There's also a BSA suggestion for Nilias which I think is really cute, too.

 

I seem to recall a few other threads, too, but they aren't coming to mind right now.

 

And yes, this is more complex than the others. I have, however, noticed that the game has been adding complexities, so... And this may or may not be the best method, its just an alternative.

 

ZzelaBusya, this is an older topic, and when I originally posted it, we had tangled in several other threads (the ones mentioned above) dealing with lineage views, so at the time your views were pretty self-evident based on other threads. You've always been in strong support of deadlines. I can remove your name if you wish.

 

C4.

[Mondat]

I have to say I like it - if I understood the suggestion correctly . Now that tombstones are also clickable so everyone can see the true lineages behind the tombstones I'd say

- it'd make it easier to let me see the "real" lineage with some default setting/one click instead of clicking on every tombstone

- tombstonelovers can keep their tombstones, so they have no real argument to be against it in my opinion

 

[i also have one deadline project: http://dragcave.net/lineage/UW6FD]

 

Maybe we could have a small ✞ (cross) in front of the name of the dead dragon in the "Family Tree" view instead of a red dot?

Edited July 3, 2014 by Mondat

[cyradis4]

I have to say I like it - if I understood the suggestion correctly . Now that tombstones are also clickable so everyone can see the true lineages behind the tombstones I'd say

- it'd make it easier to let me see the "real" lineage with some default setting/one click instead of clicking on every tombstone

- tombstonelovers can keep their tombstones, so they have no real argument to be against it in my opinion

 

[i also have one deadline project: http://dragcave.net/lineage/UW6FD]

 

Maybe we could have a small ✞ (cross) in front of the name of the dead dragon in the "Family Tree" view instead of a red dot?

The Cross is a religious symbol, and we wouldn't want to offend anyone's sensibilities.

 

However, perhaps a skull and crossbones? That's a pretty universal sign of death that doesn't have any religious connotations.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[JavaTigress]

I would be in favor of C4s idea, actually.

 

It would be disturbing to trade for or catch a nice dragon only to have one of its ancestor's killed on me... admittedly that is the owner's right and not under my control. That said, I can see the point of view of those like Fuzzbucket who used this method to make a rather pretty lineage; so I oppose making the full view the ONLY view.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would, most likely not release a dragon that this had happened with. A gold, for example, would still be a gold... and if someone killed their CB gold, for whatever reason, that'd be THEIR loss more than mine, particularly if they paid through the nose for said gold. I am not THAT picky. The idea that I no longer have what I thought I had, though, would bother me.

 

If anything, wouldn't it make what someone like Fuzz has done all the more impressive because she has created something rather pretty out of horrifyingly inbred dragons? As it stands now, someone looking at Fuzz's dragon would NEVER realize, necessarily, ( Without a whole lot of extra hunting and looking) how much Fuzz's strategic 'pruning' improved the look of things. Honestly I might look at the other veiws simply because I was curious about what the lineage looked like before. AND as C4 pointed out... just because my grandparents have passed away does NOT mean that they never existed ( I wouldn't be here if that were the case) and that no one remembers them. The same goes for our dragons, I would think. RPwise, a dragon that is grown and has offspring of its own would SURELY remember its ancestors that once lived, even if they no longer are alive. Or even if you assume that they are mere animals and don't remember(which I don't)... I would think dragon keepers WOULD remember... just like pedigree horses, dogs and so on can be traced back to long dead ancestors. Certainly, I can see the arguement that a dragon who was still in its egg when those ancestors were killed might not remember them... Either way, marking the dead dragons in a whole lineage view with a skull and crossbones, a tombstone, or such would be a helpful touch AND... make the lineages for dragons veiwable in all ways to all users. That way a person can easily check to see if what they are being offered is deadlined... in case they object to that. Some people might actually WANT to trade for a neatly done deadline, if they could see what had been done, who knows. There ARE ways of discouraging misrepresentation and fraud... although the truth is it is always 'buyer beware'. The onus would be on the one accepting the trade to be sure they know what they are actually getting. Just as it is now.... just as it has ALWAYS been.

 

I think the ability to view a lineage either way is a nice compromise on this and it might prevent people from going on a dragon-killing spree because they were having a tizzy over some change or other they didn't like... or, at least, it would neutralize the impact of it on others. Someone should NOT be able to effect other people's dragons that much just because they are unhappy, for no OTHER reason than shear petty spite, and this is a good way to prevent it AND to still allow the artful use of deadlines... Fuzz's being a good example.

 

Who knows... it MIGHT create a market for it.

 

Plus One from Me. Just my two cents.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silverswift

[Rosedamai]

X is also a universal death symbol, I should think.

[LibbyLishly]

X is also a universal death symbol, I should think.

Eh. X can stand for "Sign here", for illiteracy in the signature, for kisses, and some people just have an X in their dragons names. An actual symbol, rather than a letter of the alphabet, would probably be better.

 

I would be comfortable with either a cross or a skull and crossbones (I lean toward the latter because PIRATES). Would that mess things up for folks who look for lineages with names of an exact length, though?

[danicast]

I prefer the tombstones, thank you. The pirate symbol is not appropriated to be a symbol of the deceased, the tombstones are much nicer.

[LibbyLishly]

I prefer the tombstones, thank you. The pirate symbol is not appropriated to be a symbol of the deceased, the tombstones are much nicer.

We're not talking about getting rid of the tombstones completely, danicast. The point is discussing an alternative view option and how to show that certain dragons are deceased within that.

 

ETA: And pirates used the skull and crossbones symbol because it was a symbol of death. So... I don't see how it's not appropriate.

Edited July 3, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[danicast]

We're not talking about getting rid of the tombstones completely, danicast. The point is discussing an alternative view option and how to show that certain dragons are deceased within that.

 

ETA: And pirates used the skull and crossbones symbol because it was a symbol of death. So... I don't see how it's not appropriate.

I hope not because the tombstones are really nice and I like to have them in my lineage view.

 

We are not pirates so the pirate symbol is not really appropriate. We should stick with a symbol that is culturally universal.

[JavaTigress]

The point is that you can still see the tombstones if you wish, or add in the lineages of the dragons behind them.

Entirely optional. You wouldn't be forced to look at the other way if you didn't want.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Silverswift