Tombstones & Lineages: Multiple Lineage Views

cyradis4 · December 6, 2013

This thread is an attempt to find a compromise for the issue of lineage destruction and deadlines, so both can exist.

As such, feel free to post suggestions / alterations / ideas / half-baked-pie-in-the-sky idea (you get the idea).

There are several other threads out there which also have suggestions regarding this issue. As there are a lot of other threads about this same issue, there is clearly a part of the player base that is most unhappy. As such, posting "deal with it" in a thread that is trying to find a compromise doesn't help. I consider such posts to be free bumps, myself.

Finally, a fair warning to those who are unfamiliar with this controversy:

This thread will almost certainly get hot at some point or other. More than one similar thread has devolved into a major flame-war requiring moderator intervention.

I ask that all people remember this as they read the thread:

This is a very controversial part of the cave that many people feel passionately about.

Please have respect for the feelings of both sides, no matter what side of the fence you fall on.

Now! With the obligatory warning out of the way, lets do some brainstorming!

See 2nd post for example with pictures for those who dislike text walls

The idea:

* This suggestion is not dealing with names right now, and is treating the names as non-existent until the rest of the idea is worked out. I have an idea on how to work that, but its not fully developed and this is by far the most important part.

- The owner selects in account settings a general default for all dragons on their scroll. (I'd select Full Ancestry, myself, but ZzelaBusya would probably select Current Status).

- There are three options: "Full Ancestry", "Current Status", and "Birth Status". Explanation of the differences below

- Unless the owner changes the default for a specific dragon, all of their lineages will default to their scroll default.

- Each dragon, in their actions area, can change the default view for its own lineage. For example, I'd have the scroll's default at Full Ancestry, but I'd change this particular dragon to Current Status: http://dragcave.net/lineage/D5rJA

- Every dragon, regardless of what the default is, will have three buttons along the bottom of the lineage view. Any viewer can switch between the three views, but when the dragon is first brought up, the default lineage for that dragon is shown. (So while the Current Status of the above dragon would display, anyone could switch to Full Ancestry to see everything about said dragon. If its ancestors hadn't been deleted from the database.)

- Any ancestor where the Current Status and Full Ancestry is different is marked with a star on all lineage views. Ie, the dead dragon's name has a star by it if you view it in Full Ancestry mode, and it also has a star next to it if you view it in Current Status mode.

Full Ancestry

- The pedigree of the dragon, basically.

- the full, pre-death lineage and image shown with the breed images. So, all known ancestors are shown (even if they are dead)

- So, if person B got the silver with one tombstone, and later a 2nd appeared..... No tombstones would show

- Justification: This is a dragon's full family tree, and even though the dragon is dead it still lived at one point, and many of its ancestors might still be alive.

Current Status

- all tombstones show, just like now.

- its exactly what it says, the current status of the lineage with all dead dragons shown.

- So, if person B got the silver with one tombstone, and later a 2nd appeared... Both tombstones would show in this view.

- The lineage after the dead dragon is hidden

- Justification: There is no real life justification for hiding the still living ancestors after the dead dragon. But I like deadlines just like many others do, and want to be able to collected them while still having other lineages protected from having holes ripped into them by a dead ancestor.

Birth Status

- This is what the lineage's status was at the time the egg was bred

- Since dragons can only be traded when they are eggs or hatchies, that gives at best a two week period when they can be traded.

- I used the "as bred" time, because that's at the start of the trading window.

- So, if person B got the silver with one tombstone, and later a 2nd appeared..... Only the one tombstone that would have shown in "Current Status" at the moment the dragon was bred would show.

- Justification: There is no real life justification for hiding the still living ancestors after the dead dragon. But I like deadlines just like many others do, and want to be able to collected them while still having other lineages protected from having holes ripped into them by a dead ancestor.

There should be a 4th category, because there are several situations in which a lineage can be changed repeatedly which would leave a few views unable to be obtained using the above. However, I haven't been able to think of a way to get those situations covered. Can you guys think of the situations in particular? The more info I have, the easier it is to work out a solution.

What do you think?

C4.

PS: I'll add a poll after we've reached a consensus among the posters.

Edited December 8, 2013 by cyradis4

cyradis4 · December 6, 2013

Frequent objections to making any change and responses to them:

Coding Complexity

Objection: this idea is too complex! It can't be coded!

Responses:

- TJ is a coding wizard who knows how his game is programmed. Let us work out something that works for us, and let him decide if its too hard to code. In short, unless you are TJ himself, there is no way for you to know if this is too hard.

- I can think of several ways a database could use already existing information to do what is wanted here. I don't know if TJ's particular database can do it, but I know it can be done.

Coding Time

Objection: TJ has better things to do! Like (insert various other suggestions in the suggestions forum)

Responces:

- TJ knows what TJ has to do. He reads the suggestions forums. Let TJ decide if TJ has the time to implement this.

- TJ also knows what ideas he want to implement. Lets help him think up some more, and let him decide what he likes. After all, he will anyway

(add more objections / responces from both sides)

Example:

As stated in the first post, every single dragon will have three buttons across the bottom of their lineage view, that anyone can click to change. So an example!

(this dragon is mine, I own every single dragon in it, and all are still alive and will remain as such)

Click the small images for a bigger image. Please don't mind my bad photo-shop job, my artistic talents are mediocre at best.

Lets say for the sake of the argument that in Account Settings, I'd selected "As Bred". As such, every dragon on my scroll would, unless I changed it for that one dragon, have the default be "as bred"

My "Family Tree" view, with the red dot indicating that that dragon is "dead". For some reason, I want him to have the "Family Tree" view as the default.

So I go into Foggy Nights's Actions menu, and choose the default view for his lineage.

So I do so, selecting "Family Tree"

So, whenever anyone visits his /lineage link, this is what they see:

But Foggy Night's sire, Lucky Fog, wasn't so lucky one night, and died while flying in a heavy fog. So, he is marked with a red dot (in this example).

Now, Joe Visitor comes along, sees the red dot, and wonders what the cropped lineage looks like. So, Joe Visitor clicks on "Current Status", and this image pops up:

A few hours later, Jane Visitor wanders over, and clicks Foggy Night's /lineage link. They see the "Family Tree" view, since that's what Foggy Night's default view is. But she too can view the "Current Status".

erm. I could add an example of the "birth Status", and I might tomorrow, but my photo-editing talents are poor and I'm very tired.

Erm. I should also add the "Oh dear, some of this dragon's ancestors have passed away" across the top, but I'm too tired right now.

ETA: Anyone can edit my pics or Foggy Nights lineage image to show your own ideas.

Foggy Nights himself is an excellent example of a lineage that some users can't make on their own (needs CB Shadow Walkers), and which with even the image of a tombstone looses its impact.

http://dragcave.net/lineage/WoQJm

Edited December 8, 2013 by cyradis4

angelicdragonpuppy · December 6, 2013

I like it!

As you say, there are certain situations it wouldn't cover, but some coverage is better than nothing, right? Plus, I think the three main ideas covered would appeal to the main three types of people who collect lineages (people who want their lineages to stay as they were obtained, people who want to make deadlines, and people who want to see a full lineage tree), so it shouldn't be too bad.

Syphoneira · December 7, 2013

This sounds cool!

I'd like to suggest, though, an alternative coding scenario where, when a solid row of dead dragons forms a deadline, that such dragons could be switched to a viewing choice between whether or not to show the tombstones.

(I'm assuming, of course, that all such 'saved views' in the current appearance of lineages would be clearly marked, to make it evident that they were not shown as they actually are.)

cyradis4 · December 7, 2013

This sounds cool!

I'd like to suggest, though, an alternative coding scenario where, when a solid row of dead dragons forms a deadline, that such dragons could be switched to a viewing choice between whether or not to show the tombstones.

(I'm assuming, of course, that all such 'saved views' in the current appearance of lineages would be clearly marked, to make it evident that they were not shown as they actually are.)

Hrm, while that would be pretty, I'd hesitate about that, for a couple of reasons, but am open to discussion on it.

People being people, and unless the line / mark is right where the tombstones used to be, it will get missed. I mean, seriously, about half the posts in "Help" are asking about information that is right there, on the main site, in plain view. Every one of us has had those sorts of head-desk moments, when we completely missed something that was right there, but wasn't in our face.

This means, some people will raise / trade for dragons they don't like, because they failed to realize it was a deadline with tombstones hidden.

And people being people, there will be those who either accidentally or intentionally miss-represent the dragon in a trade post.

So, whatever mark is used, it would have to be:

1. Clearly visible where the tombstones were

2. Intuitive across cultures

And if we'd have to have that anyway, why not keep the tombstones which already perfectly satisfy the requirements, and have been around forever so just about everyone knows what they mean?

The other reason I hesitate about this is its too much like catering toward one lineage style. There are deadlines out there that would look nice with the tombstones gone, but which aren't a solid row.

No, if a view to remove even the tombstones was implemented, it would have to affect all tombstones to be even handed.

I don't think of these as "saved views", myself, because it gives others the feel that you are taking a snapshot in time. When really, we're just looking at the same data in different ways.

Yes, all dead dragons on every single lineage view will be marked. I'm currently thinking, a star at the end of the name? But then, that can also be missed at a glance.

So maybe also have, across the top of all lineage views, something like...

"Oh dear, some of this dragon's ancestors have passed away"

It can still be missed, but... At least we tried?

Cheers!

C4.

Shadowdrake · December 7, 2013

~snip~
"Oh dear, some of this dragon's ancestors have passed away"

Bolded and/or with a tombstone graphic before it as well? People might overlook text, but a picture is less likely to get passed over and a tombstone's meaning should be obvious.

And the thing with the showing dragons:

"Show tombstones as former dragons?" (phrasing needs work)

o Yes

o No

That way people can still choose whether to cutoff the deadline but with the addition of having tombstone images or dragon images.

Syphoneira · December 7, 2013

Bolded and/or with a tombstone graphic before it as well? People might overlook text, but a picture is less likely to get passed over and a tombstone's meaning should be obvious.

And the thing with the showing dragons:

"Show tombstones as former dragons?" (phrasing needs work)

o Yes

o No

That way people can still choose whether to cutoff the deadline but with the addition of having tombstone images or dragon images.

Brilliant!

Having the names bolded and a small tombstone icon beside each dead dragon, perhaps in the upper right corner where probably most people would notice it(?), would make this 'lineage preservation' obvious, and something like that would, in any event, be needed for all dead dragons.

A row of such tiny tombstone icons could replace the row of tombstones in deadlines selected to not show the usual row of tombstones, should this option become possible, perhaps (edit: as an active option) where a row/predominance of 'deads' (edit: at the end of a visible lineage) indicates a deadline via coding. (?)

Somebody somewhere suggested, if I recall correctly, having 'lineage-preserved' names which had been, since acquisition, altered or lost, written in italics, to indicate this change as well.

The indications showing 'retained lineage' status obviously (edit: would) have to be both easily evident and unobtrusive enough that the preserved lineage still maintains its beauty, while making it clear that it is, indeed, a preserved lineage and not reflecting the current state of affairs.

Edit: just to mention that added text might stretch the lineage boxes out of whack, potentially distorting an otherwise perfect lineage in all respects, so that bolded type on the original name might be preferable.

(Sorry about all of the added edits, coffee doesn't seem to be doing it for me lately, lol.)

Edited December 7, 2013 by Syphoneira

cyradis4 · December 7, 2013

The indications showing 'retained lineage' status obviously (edit: would) have to be both easily evident and unobtrusive enough that the preserved lineage still maintains its beauty, while making it clear that it is, indeed, a preserved lineage and not reflecting the current state of affairs.

I'll try to photo-shop tomorrow something along these lines, but I do have a comment in general:

The full view is *not* a preserved lineage: It is the dragon's entire family tree.

I have seen family trees IRL that do indicate in some way that a particular individual is deceased, so some marker is appropriate.

Lets not re-start that argument again in this thread, about the lineage view not being the family tree >.<. I don't agree with said statement, but I also don't care what others think it is so long as I can have a full view for myself and others to view my dragon with. Which is why I'm trying to keep the terminology to "full" and "modified", so late comers don't mix them up and re-start the whole "the lineage isn't a family tree!" argument.

In truth, for those who claim that "the lineage isn't the family tree", they can view what I'm actually doing as adding a family tree view.

Cheers!

C4.

Syphoneira · December 7, 2013

Lol, not disputing that the lineage is of the family tree, and sorry if it seemed so.

The appearance of the full family tree is generally the concern, although others, who may have specifically traded for, or otherwise obtained, something already altered, such as a dragon with Zombie parentage, actually are among those who simply want to retain the lineage view they originally acquired, and I'd prefer a term more inclusive of everyone potentially adversely affected by lineage appearance alterations following acquisition.

Edit: just went to check the only genealogical chart I have around (my copy of one branch went missing quite some time ago, and only my parents had a copy of another, which went elsewhere) and on this one, all that's noted involves direct lines of descent and whether without issue.

No specific symbol for 'deceased' that I noticed, (thereby saving rather a lot of ink, I expect, lol).

But I was hoping that there might be some useful symbol I'd simply not remembered...

More modern types on the internet would, of course, be more likely to do so, as you've evidently witnessed.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Syphoneira

cyradis4 · December 7, 2013

Lol, not disputing that the lineage is of the family tree, and sorry if it seemed so.

The appearance of the full family tree is generally the concern, although others, who may have specifically traded for, or otherwise obtained, something already altered, such a dragon with Zombie parentage, actually are among those who simply want to retain the lineage view they originally acquired, and I'd prefer a term more inclusive of everyone potentially affected by lineage appearance alterations.

That's why there are three views:

Full

At Birth

As is now.

We could do it so that you can choose between all potential versions of a lineage, so.... maybe something that would trigger a new version at each ancestor's death?

So lets see.....

Ancestor A died on 2012-01-01

Ancestor C died on 2012-05-01

Ancestor E died on 2012-12-12

So you would have 4 views listed, perhaps in a drop-down:

Family Tree (all ancestors shown) (always shows in the top two)

Current Cropped (always shows in the top two)

Cropped 2012-01-01 (name needs to be changed)

- This shows the lineage with ancestor A a tombstone

Cropped 2012-05-01

- This shows the lineage with Ancestors A and C as tombstones

Cropped 2012-12-12

- This shows the lineage with Ancestors A, B, and C as tombstones

There would be no possibility of having a lineage with B and C tombstones but A a breed picture, because A died first.

There is a problem however, with large deadlines (like the Rosebud x Silver Tinsel deadline), which is why I had it limited. If all possibilities are shown, some dragons would have potentially hundreds of options in the dropdown, clear up to 2,048 options for a 12th even gen deadline.

While I personally am not adverse to having a rare 2,000+ dropdown list, some of the people who have to scroll through a list that long might not be as sanguine about it.

Cheers!

C4.

Edited December 7, 2013 by cyradis4

cyradis4 · December 7, 2013

More modern types on the internet would, of course, be more likely to do so, as you've evidently witnessed.

The ones I've seen are more progeny maps showing decedents from a key ancestor, and contain far more info than a picture and a name. And in truth, in a game where almost all dragons are still alive and are likely to remain so forever, its pointless to indicate which ones are still alive. Whereas with a geneology, almost all of the ancestors are dead with no possibility of still being alive, and those that are living will eventually die too, so there's no point in indicating which are dead and which are alive since even those who are alive when the geneology was made will die eventually.

But some people will get upset if dead ancestors aren't indicated some way in the full view, and others will get very upset if its indicated in a very obvious way, and a little star after the name, or the name / code in itallics, would do that. Or a small tombstone after the name? Or as you said, a small one in the corner of the image might work.

And I'm still not sure I'm following how you mean with this statement:

and I'd prefer a term more inclusive of everyone potentially adversely affected by lineage appearance alterations following acquisition.

I think my immediate above post covered that but if it didn't.... I'm not following you.

Cheers!

C4.

Edited December 7, 2013 by cyradis4

Syphoneira · December 7, 2013

Thanks, I think you covered it beautifully!

I was just explaining my choice of words, in trying to include whatever any dragon's original lineage-when-obtained might have been.

I hope this would apply in 'Actions' to individual dragons, rather than to a full scroll only, as I've also seen suggested?

Because there should be some indication, (perhaps the red star you referred to?), to show if anything preventing changes was in effect on the pages of each dragon to which this applies, even if no changes had actually taken place.

Then we'd only need to decide whether to trigger 'At Birth' or 'Full' when some catastrophe occurred to the lineage of a specific dragon, although (if it worked,) for deadlines having with/without the usual large Tombstones view choices, the owner might choose a different view more often.

I'll admit that I have some long-ruined Dorkies with the Dorkiness cut off by a death that bothered me very much at the time, but I probably wouldn't look to breed/gift those longer-lineaged ones any more anyway, as so many people aren't much interested in those, so this, for me, would be more a sort of protection against future events IF it could be applied to adults, and if to growing dragons only, to irreplaceable ones as they came in.

But, all things being equal, I'd rather not have my dragons automatically adapt by simply retaining their 'as acquired' lineage without my being able to choose, or have it simply be a 'set and forget' automatic thing for my whole scroll, rather than a case-by-case choice.

Lol, I'm probably too tired to be commenting, but I'm definitely too tired to do anything else.

Edit: re-scrambled a sentence...

Edited December 7, 2013 by Syphoneira

cyradis4 · December 7, 2013

Syphoneira, I'm still not following you.