"Display lineage as originally received"

[Fuzzbucket]

I agree 100% with this.

 

And Nectaris: The reason the deadliners are against this is it means that they can no longer destroy the lineage of their dragon's already existing offspring.

 

In short, something like this means they can no longer affect other people's scrolls.

 

Right now, they can CHANGE other people's scrolls. A lineage is a part of the dragon, and any change to the lineage changes the dragon. If the dragon is on another person's scroll, then they are changing that person's scroll.

 

Which is against the rules.

 

Sorry deadliners, I've got a few deadlines I like too, but I see this subject crop up again and again and again, and its always the same old thing:

The deadliners want to be able to change OTHER people's scrolls.

And the other side does NOT want other people to be able to change their scrolls.

 

Its exactly like the people whining about an AP'ed egg not being returned: The deadliners want to be able to control their dragon's offspring AFTER it's already left their hands. Which is against the rules.

 

I do not expect to change a single person's mind with this post. Similar things have been posted Every. Single. Time. this subject has come up. And the people saying NO CHANGE and the people saying CHANGE haven't changed one bit, they are still all using the exact same arguments as the first time this subject came up.

 

The battle lines are drawn. The war has been waged for years. Negotiation Is Not Possible, for there does not exist a way to satisfy both sides.

 

Only TJ can break the stalemate. So far, he has shown no inclination to do so.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Excuse me but I am a deadliner, and I don't want to change anyone else's scroll. For mine (which is no longer the totally dead deadline I aimed at for so long) I collected some shockingly inbred dragons which I bred up to have two shockingly inbred parents and made the deadline on my scroll, from them. It will never impact anyone else.

 

I don't know any other deadliner who kills dragons that are part of someone else's lineage. Everyone I know how deadlines does it from their OWN dragons, whose offspring are on their scrolls.

 

Just saying.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Excuse me but I am a deadliner, and I don't want to change anyone else's scroll. For mine (which is no longer the totally dead deadline I aimed at for so long) I collected some shockingly inbred dragons which I bred up to have two shockingly inbred parents and made the deadline on my scroll, from them. It will never impact anyone else.

 

I don't know any other deadliner who kills dragons that are part of someone else's lineage. Everyone I know how deadlines does it from their OWN dragons, whose offspring are on their scrolls.

 

Just saying.

And this change won't affect any of those honest people. If you make deadlines and THEN dole out the offspring, as opposed to spreading their children and then making the deadline (which can impact other people), then people will always have the deadline as the original lineage and can never look past it. ^^

 

As a side note, when I refer to deadlines, I'm referring to the killing of dragons in general, not just people who specifically make deadline lineages. I have nothing against deadlines as you're thinking of them. I have things against people who trade their dragon's offspring for high prices and then promptly kill one of the parents out of spite... which doesn't happen often, thankfully, but is awful when it does. Also to prevent people who just accidentally / randomly kill their dragons for fun or zombie attempts from impacting other's scrolls.

Edited December 4, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

You'll never reach all the players who aren't on forum though...

[angelicdragonpuppy]

You'll never reach all the players who aren't on forum though...

Not certain what you mean?

[Fuzzbucket]

Not certain what you mean?

Probably the majority of players are not on the forum, and have no idea of any of this and just play the way they play.

 

They will carry on doing whatever they do, and don't know that it is affecting anyone.

[Syphoneira]

I'm failing to see how this would impact other's gameplay, especially if it was modified where only you see it as it once was. You can still kill, zombify, and make deadlines all you want. All it would change is your impact on others, and if that really is your goal then I would question whether or not that is an aspect that should be preserved.

 

As for coding, well, that is completely TJ's decision. It seems pointless and silly to veto something simply because you want TJ to work on your favorite project(for that is what it boils down to).

 

I think the best comparison is this:

 

If you buy a purebred animal and receive papers, a housefire at the breeder's house that destroys their papers will not magically make your papers burn up too. You still have a record of that dog's lineage, even if the breeder no longer does.

 

 

Thanks, you said it better than I could have.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Probably the majority of players are not on the forum, and have no idea of any of this and just play the way they play.

 

They will carry on doing whatever they do, and don't know that it is affecting anyone.

Which is why something like this would be nice, no? We can't reach everyone and nicely ask them to only deadline things without offspring owned by other people, but with this we can ensure our lineages are safe without having to bother them.

[cyradis4]

Probably the majority of players are not on the forum, and have no idea of any of this and just play the way they play.

 

They will carry on doing whatever they do, and don't know that it is affecting anyone.

That's all the lineage side of the debate wants: A way to protect their scrolls from accidental or malicious killings.

 

So tell me Fuzz, I've never gotten you on this one.

 

You support a person's right to vamp an egg on their own scroll, after all it is their egg / dragon now. But you DON'T support giving people the ability to protect how one of their own dragon's lineage displays? Which only affects how THEIR dragon, and its own offspring, is displayed, and not how the parents are displayed?

 

Do you see the hypocrisy in that? Because I sure do.

 

Fuzz, note: I'm not picking on you, you're just the person who brought vamps up and I see people do this all the time, say that the dragon is the owner's to do with what they want and yet say that the parent's owner has the right to change another person's dragon (ie, destroy how the dragon's original lineage displayed). I genuinely want an answer, because I think this is the crux of the issue: Giving people the ability to protect how their own dragon is displayed, to keep it how it was when they got it.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Negru]

Wow, darn..... and wow!

 

I have not logged on to the forums in forever, but a friend of mine redirected me here for some lulz. Thank you all for entertaining me for a little bit, I needed that! Tough I didn't need all the "head->desk" I've done after it. That being said,

 

I feel I can chime in because some of you brought in as an argument players that do not come to the forums, therefore you spoke about me as well. So here I am, one of those that doesn't much care about the forums, but still plays DC anyway. So what does a player like me say about this issue? Why in the world would ANYONE care about how ANOTHER player gets to see a lineage of his/her OWN dragons??? You get the unrestricted freedom to kill whatever dragon belongs to you, and in return, another player gets the normal freedom they deserve: an option to see the dead dragon appear in the lineage instead of a tombstone. To me this is a win-win situation. So what is the problem? There truly isn't one.

 

 

[diaveborn]

 

I should say that if I remember correctly the idea I presented in the Ascension thread was based heavily on things other people have said before me - unfortunately I don't remember any of the other posts or I'd link to them here.

[ZzelaBusya]

One of the reasons why this suggestion is alarming to me is that, once again, it implies that "good-lineaged" dragons are in some way better than any others and therefore deserve special treatment of some sort (because clearly noboddy here is defending some inbred Guardian that later got a dead ancestor in the line!), while technically they are all the same.

 

Let's imagine some bad, bad person cruelly ruined your checker or something... Well, now what? I feel sorry for you, but nothing is stated out there that people have to care about how lineages of their dragons' offsprings look like, and therefore it's perfectly normal! From the point of view of the game, the dragon doesn't lose any of its characteristics just because its lineage view got changed, so I really see no point in changing things just because some people give value to lineages that look good - apart from that let me mention that "good" is a very relative term in this case, and also some (I daresay most) users who play DC may not even care about lines at all.

 

We already have a lineage *viewer*, but I don't think that the viewer should be altered in some sort just because someone might get a traumatic experience having used the viewer to discover a killed/renamed dragon in the line the offspring of which they own.

 

I think the forum userbase is picky/snobbish/call it any way you like about lineages enough already without any special suggestions covering that involved. I would hate to see such an "improvement" being implemented, because clearly it has to do with subjective things and also *trade value*. You can't get a shiny trade for your stairstep Tinsel now because one of the ancestors was killed - I can't even estimate the severity of that disaster, must be so horrible. *snorts*

 

Seriously, enough of that "b-but lineages!", I think what we have regarding it is enough. People who decide to continue building lineages started by someone else should just face and accept the fact that it's absolutely fine if said someone else can change something at any moment and it may affect the line.

[cyradis4]

ZzelaBusya:

(general you and general me)

This has nothing to do with "pretty lineages are better" and EVERYTHING to do with giving YOU the ability to change a dragon on MY scroll.

 

Or, better yet, taking away YOUR ability to alter a dragon on MY scroll. Alter the parent on your scroll, and its lineage, to your heart's content! But don't touch my dragon and the lineage I got it with, even if it is an inbred Guardian.

 

Don't try to make it something its not, because the above statement is what its all about. It doesn't matter that the lineage viewer was added "later". Well... So were deadlines! And biomes! And Vampires! The game changes.

 

I do consider altering the lineage as a major change to the dragon. Just like me zombifying your prize metal dragon for you, without logging into your scroll and without your permission. I can't zombify your dragons, so why are you telling me I have to let you kill my dragons?

 

Taking the dog breed lineage paper example.... Just because you burned your copies has no affect on MY copies, seeing as how my copies are separate pieces of paper.

 

 

In short, if you want to give me the ability to destroy your most prized dragon, fine! But personally, the fate of my dragons should be in my hands alone, and altering the lineage IS changing the dragon.

 

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited December 5, 2013 by cyradis4

[angelicdragonpuppy]

One of the reasons why this suggestion is alarming to me is that, once again, it implies that "good-lineaged" dragons are in some way better than any others and therefore deserve special treatment of some sort (because clearly noboddy here is defending some inbred Guardian that later got a dead ancestor in the line!), while technically they are all the same.

 

[...]

 

You can't get a shiny trade for your stairstep Tinsel now because one of the ancestors was killed - I can't even estimate the severity of that disaster, must be so horrible. *snorts*

While people might use it in biased ways, the suggestion itself would affect all lineages equally. Sure, most people might use it to preserve traditionally valued lineages, but who's to say that others wouldn't be upset about the loss of an ancestor in an inbred or messy dragon? I've seen some people on the forums get very excited over dragons I consider worthless, admiring all their diverse ancestors and such. This suggestion would protect them as much as us lineage "snobs."

 

I also find it rather unfair for you to call those of us who value lineages snobby when you apparently think so little of our view that you snort at our losses. If I work hard to get a rare dragon so I can trade it for a low gen Shimmer, knowing its offspring can in future help me get other things I want to collect, and then that worth is utterly ruined--I think that's a valid concern. Not something for you to *snort* at. :/

 

On a final note, yes, the game itself treats all lineages the same. However, a significant part of the user base does not. There are dozens upon dozens of threads dedicated to lineage building and swapping. To dismiss all those who love lineages with "oh, but the game doesn't care about them" seems a very narrow point of view. No, the game might not care, but a great many users do... and generally speaking a game that ignores the concerns and interests of its users is not going to be a very successful game.

Edited December 5, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[ZzelaBusya]

I also find it rather unfair for you to call those of us who value lineages snobby when you apparently think so little of our view that you snort at our losses. If I work hard to get a rare dragon so I can trade it for a low gen Shimmer, knowing its offspring can in future help me get other things I want to collect, and then that worth is utterly ruined--I think that's a valid concern. Not something for you to *snort* at. :/

 

On a final note, yes, the game itself treats all lineages the same. However, a significant part of the user base does not. There are dozens upon dozens of threads dedicated to lineage building and swapping. To dismiss all those who love lineages with "oh, but the game doesn't care about them" seems a very narrow point of view. No, the game might not care, but a great many users do... and generally speaking a game that ignores the concerns and interests of its users is not going to be a very successful game.

It's not unfair of me to state that because I've been in the very same situation and have experienced the same loss. I can't trade those dragons for anything nice any longer, but they are just as dear to me and it doesn't seem like a huge problem to me, in general.

 

Seriously, if your perfect checker was a dragon so dear to you, why would it become less cherished because of someone out there killing/unnaming/renaming a dragon in it. It seems like nonsense to me, and even though one may not get a shiny trade for it out there, with rare exceptions, I do not see any other problems. There's always a risk to consider, don't know how many times I should repeat that but why not.

 

Those dozens of threads you mentioned are often created (and supported) by the same people again and again. I understand that it's important to you, but I don't see why something epic has to be done because of some line out there that doesn't strike your fancy any longer. This issue doesn't seem serious enough to me to require such radical changes.

Edited December 5, 2013 by ZzelaBusya

[whitebaron]

Addig onto what zzelya said, I can very easily change your lineages just by renaming mydragons to longer or shorter names. Or just plainsilly ones.

 

Rename my cbsilver that bred you a nice 5eg pb to something with 32 letters,how about abdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz123456.or just call it wb cb silver male 1.

 

Ruins your lineage,huh?

 

 

Besides@c4: you advocate changing the way MY dragon looks in YOUR lineage. Hows that any more fair?

[cyradis4]

ZzelaBusya:

The number of threads about just this topic in suggestions alone argues differently. As I said earlier, I've heard all the arguments upteen. When a topic this controversial gets brought up this often, then that means there IS a problem. Many people do feel VERY strongly about this, on both sides of the fence. Yes I get that you are in favor of keeping your ability to alter my dragons in fundamental ways. Doesn't sound so nice said that way, does it? But its what's happening.

 

Answer me this: Is it just? Letting you alter my dragons?

 

Why should something that is very unfair and is so easily fixed be shrugged off as the way it is?

 

C4.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Seriously, if your perfect checker was a dragon so dear to you, why would it become less cherished because of someone out there killing/unnaming/renaming a dragon in it. It seems like nonsense to me, and even though one may not get a shiny trade for it out there, with rare exceptions, I do not see any other problems. There's always a risk to consider, don't know how many times I should repeat that but why not.

How is the ruining of trade worth not a problem? We can't even post "I accept IOUs" in a trade post anymore because it might lead to us getting cheated, yet right now we can be cheated by having things we've essentially "bought" changed on us after the fact.

 

In a game in which there are literally thousands of copies of the same sprite, there are very few things to make a dragon special. Names do it a bit, but lineages are the big thing. So, yes, when a lineage I prize is changed--when what made that dragon unique among thousands of its kind is lost, or altered, or damaged--I love it less. It is no longer impressive, no longer a testimony to a hard-won bargain or years of work and dedication. It is, once again, just one of a million, and something that can often be replaced at the drop of a hat. That's hardly something to cherish, now is it?

 

It might not matter to everyone, but for some of us, the loss of that special quality can be very upsetting. And it's so easily preventable, in a way that harms no one, that indeed allows people even more control over their scrolls and lets people feel more secure in making trades and collaborating on projects than ever before! How can that possibly be bad?

 

And, really, what it all boils down to isn't even if lineages are "important." The main question is: should people be able to alter things on other people's scrolls? Even if lineages aren't important to everyone, they are very important to some people, so it seems very wrong that they can be changed on people without their permission.

Edited December 5, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[ZzelaBusya]

Answer me this: Is it just? Letting you alter my dragons?

YES, absolutely. Because the lineage in question has my input and therefore I may take part in altering it as I want, as well as any other users who own the ancestor of that dragon of yours.

 

 

So, yes, when a lineage I prize is changed--when what made that dragon unique among thousands of its kind is lost, or altered, or damaged--I love it less.

Poor little dragon then, I'd say, if an owner loves it less because of something like that. But I understand where it comes from, I just don't agree with it, that's all.

[cyradis4]

Addig onto what zzelya said, I can very easily change your lineages just by renaming mydragons to longer or shorter names. Or just plainsilly ones.

 

Rename my cbsilver that bred you a nice 5eg pb to something with 32 letters,how about abdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz123456.or just call it wb cb silver male 1.

 

Ruins your lineage,huh?

 

 

Besides@c4: you advocate changing the way MY dragon looks in YOUR lineage. Hows that any more fair?

Because YOUR dragon only shows in the original version if viewed from MY dragon's lineage page.

 

In short, someone going to your dragon's lineage would see your dragon just as you wanted it seen, but someone looking at my dragon would see it how I wanted it to be seen. And any offspring bred from YOUR dragon AFTER the alteration? Would show just the version you wanted seen, since that's how the other user got the dragons.

 

Yes, your dragon would appear in my dragon's lineage, but if you clicked on said killed dragon, it'd go to your dragon (or its tombstone since its dead), and if you clicked your dragon's lineage you'd see it how you wanted it.

 

Yes the names are irritating, and I've got one of your lineages with a long dragon name that is irritating, but it hasn't changed the dragon, just the name of an ancestor. Besides, TJ has already stated on the forums that he's going to be changing the way lineages are viewed.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[whitebaron]

Tj stated that he is searching for a better way to DISPLAY lineages, not to change what is ON them. (important difference)

 

Besides@adp: trade value is the worst argument ever.

[cyradis4]

YES, absolutely. Because the lineage in question has my input and therefore I may take part in altering it as I want, as well as any other users who own the ancestor of that dragon of yours.

 

 

 

Poor little dragon then, I'd say, if an owner loves it less because of something like that. But I understand where it comes from, I just don't agree with it, that's all.

Let us take your position to it's logical conclusion, based on doing a similar thing IRL.

 

You are saying that:

You have the right to break into my house, go through my personal belongings, until you find my horse's Jockey Club registration papers that I bought with my horse. And then you can burn them. Which would drastically alter the value of my Thoroughbred race horse. Horses can't race without their registration papers, nor breed as Thoroughbreds, nor be sold as Thoroughbreds.

 

All because you bred the sire and decided to burn his registry papers.

 

IRL, that's called burglary. Also willful destruction of property. And could well earn you jail time, especially since Thoroughbreds IRL can, for a particularly prized specimen, sell for upwards of $60 MILLION USD and your little act of vandalizm means he's worth next to nothing now. (most are far less expensive, ranging from free clear on up).

 

Just saying!

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

PS: White Baron, that's why that comment was with the names, I don't consider the names as important as its likely to change soon anyhow, and has in the past changed.

Edited December 5, 2013 by cyradis4

[edwardelricfreak]

What: Basically an account setting that you can toggle on or off. When it's on, all lineages on your scroll display as they were when you first received them. They will also appear that way for anyone viewing your dragons. In other words, if you get a dragon and later on one of its ancestors is killed / loses its name / has its name changed, you won't see this change. Offspring of the dragon will show whatever lineage is selected; changes to the parent's settings might or might not reflect in their offspring, depending on what the owners of those offspring set the option to.

There's a way to do this already, two ways in fact, with no coding on TJ's part and minimal work for the person. It's even for individual dragons.

 

It's called...

 

A screenshot.

 

The exact moment you get a dragon, you can take a screenshot of its lineage. You don't have to worry about dragons being killed or renamed or anything else. They're preserved, forever if you wish, the exact same way as when you took them. They don't affect gameplay.

 

For those with smaller screens that can't get the whole lineage in one screenshot, you can always take multiple screenshots and splice them together (or ask someone else to do it for you if you need that).

 

The 2nd way isn't as good, but you can always create a spreadsheet/table. There won't be any pictures, but it doesn't require taking multiple screenshots or anything.

 

Best thing about both methods is that you can share them later, even after things are changed!

 

 

 

I rather have to agree with Zzela's points, as well. This suggestion is not needed.

Edited December 5, 2013 by edwardelricfreak

[cyradis4]

edwardelricfreak:

 

Your screen shotted dragon is still useless for its originally intended purpose, as it won't pass its history on to its offspring. And the dragon's lineage has STILL been altered significantly.

 

C4.

[edwardelricfreak]

Why would you pass on a currently incorrect lineage to a hatchling?

 

And even if you have this "option", the lineage can still be altered significantly, you just won't see it. What's the difference?

[ZzelaBusya]

Let us take your position to it's logical conclusion, based on doing a similar thing IRL.

 

You are saying that:

You have the right to break into my house, go through my personal belongings, until you find my horse's Jockey Club registration papers that I bought with my horse. And then you can burn them. Which would drastically alter the value of my Thoroughbred race horse. Horses can't race without their registration papers, nor breed as Thoroughbreds, nor be sold as Thoroughbreds.

Your analogy is wrong and unacceptable. No, I am not claiming I have the right to "break into your house" and ruin something there. But I have the right to change something in *my* house at any moment, and if something I've done to it affects your house in some way, then...well, sorry. *shrugs*

 

Unless you make a lineage all by yourself, you do NOT receive the whole line! The lineage as a whole is NOT your property, unless you own all the dragons in it. You only obtain the final product, that's all. If the lineage is a result of contribution of several players, I do not see anything wrong in them being able to change the way the lineage looks, be it agreed among them or not, and yes, I think it's perfectly fair if it affects the way the offsprings' lineages look like.