Allow Neglected Discussion on the Forums

[Rhynn Collins]

I would like it if discussing NDs was allowed on the forum, but I also totally understand the mods' perspective on the matter. On my own forum there's topics I'd rather avoid simply because it'd take up so much modding time, which could be better spent elsewhere, and if I read Sock's explanation in the Tiny Little Questions (at least I think it was in there... I remember reading about why it's not allowed somewhere in the help section) then this is absolutely one of those better-to-avoid topics.

 

Which still doesn't change that I'd like to be able to discuss NDs openly, so if a way can be found which works for both the mods and the users, then that'd be great

[Malcorium]

I am not particularly interested in NDs personally, but I agree that discussions about them should at least be given a chance.

It's sad to see new people get pelted with "it's not allowed!!11" whenever they just mention the NDs.

 

 

FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

I admit I read this as "Freedoom" in my head

[zorua9]

we should be able to speak about NDs but not speak about how to create one (maybe)....

[angelicdragonpuppy]

we should be able to speak about NDs but not speak about how to create one (maybe)....

That's what we have right now...

[zorua9]

That's what we have right now...

really???

[purplehaze]

really???

Well, maybe in theory, but I have seen people pelted with protest for even saying the words. I think that is a user thing, though, and not a mod thing. Users have gotten so paranoid about what is allowed and what isn't that the mere mention brings a flood of the "can't talk about that" replies.

[vivo]

Well, maybe in theory, but I have seen people pelted with protest for even saying the words. I think that is a user thing, though, and not a mod thing. Users have gotten so paranoid about what is allowed and what isn't that the mere mention brings a flood of the "can't talk about that" replies.

1-O'-1 NEGLECTED DRAGONS. (Ban me if you dare.)

 

I just find it silly. Unnecessary censorship is never a good thing.

[Obscure_Trash]

I don't have a specific opinion on this, but I just have to say:

 

If it being too much work for the mods is a problem, maybe there could be a new group of mods made--those who specifically police that topic if it's really that huge a deal.

 

This seems to be the answer the everything about new/different forum stuff and, as always, my answer is no this is ridiculous. If the topic were allowed, section and global mods are more than enough. We don't need a specific new section where there is one specific mod group to deal with one topic.

If more mods are needed, then more mods are needed. But we don't need to go about creating new groups of mods for every little forum suggestion. D:

 

The reason for the original ban wasn't even "this is too hard to mod!11!11!!" it was "holy cow, multi's are being created exponentially and this isn't right and it's gotten out of hand". Even strong modding of the topic wasn't cutting down multi creation or the encouragement for others to create multis.

 

I can't say how a new topic would act, and I don't think we can really make any conclusions about how it would (I've seen 'I'm sure people create just as many multi's as back then anyway' which I think ignores the attitude in the thread of "create multi's to keep your scroll clear and get an ND; win/win!"). And yes, that goes both ways. But I'd personally rather leave the final decision of re-allowing this topic up to TJ (probably discussing with mods after users have discussed here) or at least mods who were active during the original topic.

[natli]

There's hardly ever anyone knowledgeable, usually no more than 2 others on the chats,

*takes offense, like, for real* >:c

 

About the subject... I don't think the thread encouraged multiscrolling, but the process of making the NDs. In other words, the NDs themselves I wasn't around back then but I would be surprised to see a community (a thread in this case) that encourages rule breaking. Why? Because rule breakers are a minority. If you'll brag about your 45363287 scrolls somebody is going to report you

 

 

[CowlRaven]

personally I'm all for this idea since I joined the forums after the ban took place and I haven't been able to get a Neglected Dragon even though I've done countless experiments

 

all the sites that I look at for the experiments are extremely out of date and I can't access the chat since it would be weird going in and just saying "hey someone tell me how to make a Neglected Dragon" especially since no one really knows me anymore

 

I know that the mods are worried that people will encourage multiscrolling this time around but believe me people are much more observant now than 5 years ago and even I'm afraid to say much in fear of getting a warning or banned for talking about something (I've already gotten in trouble recently for giving someone advice on how to catch dragons easier with poor internet connection)

 

if more mods needed to be made to control the topic then that's that and I don't really see a problem with a few more mods running around to stop multi-scrollers

 

long story short you've got my support on this

[edwardelricfreak]

I kind of like the Neglecteds being mysterious and requiring the player to figure out how to get one more or less on their own.

 

I'm not opposed to allowing talk of them and their creation on the forums, though.

 

But still, I like having a hard-to-get dragon that you're not quite 100% sure how to make.

[love_HP]

Is there any other reason for the ban of Neglected discussion besides "it encourages multi-scrolling"?

For the multi-scrolling part, just as the first page has pointed out, people who multi-scroll will do it for whatever reason. If Neglected discussion is allowed on the forum, people will be more likely to discuss it here (where "legal" ways of making NDs without multi-scrolling will be discussed) instead of going to somewhere else, where multi-scrolling might be discussed in secret and go unnoticed.

If there is any other reason (possibility of too much drama?) I'd like to point out that many other topics lead to drama easily, such as the Take an egg Leave an egg thread. It's impossible to have a forum without drama, and banning everything that might cause drama or whatever negative things is like not drinking water because one might choke.

If TJ just doesn't like people to discuss NDs in his place and want to keep it a mystery... oh well.

Edit for a typo.

Edited October 24, 2013 by love_HP

[SkyMet]

For a long time I thought it was banned because it was considered a cruel thing to do to your dragons, and if you wanted to make one you were an evil person

 

Then I heard it was "because it encouraged multi-scrolling," and I was like How so? I can think of a lot of compelling reasons to multi-scroll (like say, collecting lots of new releases and trading them away for a fortune). But that hasn't led to bans of talking about other things.

[Obscure_Trash]

Alright, for people who don't know the whole story:

 

Yes, neglected discussion was banned because it encouraged multis. It wasn't because it could possibly encourage multis. It's because the thread was a direct cause for an extreme increase in multis. Users were out right and blatantly encouraging others to make neglecteds so they could keep their 'main' scroll clean, so they could experiment more, so it was easier to bounce, etc. It wasn't a small thing. It was huge and out of control. Mods were fighting to keep it in control so much so that it ended up being closed with the explanation of "this is reverse engineering" through all the confusion, and TJ later had to clarify "it's not reverse engineering, but it is encouraging multis, which are against the ToS" (paraphrased of course).

 

As for time frame - well, I don't know any exact date. I will say it happened after I was modded (some months after my forum join date in mid-2008) but while I was inactive, which I believe was late-2009 - mid- to late-2010. Terriah was still an active mod (as she was the one to close the thread), and she went inactive a little after I came back. I believe I have my years correct. Anyone who was active during that time want to confirm?

 

I am fine if you still think this isn't a good reason for discussion to still be banned, but please be aware that the ban didn't happen because mods thought it might cause some multis - it was banned because it did cause a lot of multis. I just think this discussion should happen based on what did happen, not on misunderstandings of what happened since a lot of you weren't here when it was going on. x3

 

Hopefully this does come off as a neutral post? Because it really is, lol.

Edited October 25, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Nectaris]

Alright, for people who don't know the whole story:

 

Yes, neglected discussion was banned because it encouraged multis. It wasn't because it could possibly encourage multis. It's because the thread was a direct cause for an extreme increase in multis. Users were out right and blatantly encouraging others to make neglecteds so they could keep their 'main' scroll clean, so they could experiment more, so it was easier to bounce, etc. It wasn't a small thing. It was huge and out of control. Mods were fighting to keep it in control so much so that it ended up being closed with the explanation of "this is reverse engineering" through all the confusion, and TJ later had to clarify "it's not reverse engineering, but it is encouraging multis, which are against the ToS" (paraphrased of course).

 

As for time frame - well, I don't know any exact date. I will say it happened after I was modded (some months after my forum join date in mid-2008) but while I was inactive, which I believe was late-2009 - mid- to late-2010. Terriah was still an active mod (as she was the one to close the thread), and she went inactive a little after I came back. I believe I have my years correct. Anyone who was active during that time want to confirm?

 

I am fine if you still think this isn't a good reason for discussion to still be banned, but please be aware that the ban didn't happen because mods thought it might cause some multis - it was banned because it did cause a lot of multis. I just think this discussion should happen based on what did happen, not on misunderstandings of what happened since a lot of you weren't here when it was going on. x3

 

Hopefully this does come off as a neutral post? Because it really is, lol.

I'm not denying that it caused multi-scrolling, but surely it would be easier to monitor these people on this site, than on some forum the moderators don't read where they continue to encourage multiscrolling? If it was such a problem, there is a high chance that they simply moved the same discussion elsewhere and/or they are encouraging it in private. At least with a public thread you can catch the perpetrators.

[Imzadi]

It was quite late in 2010, IIRC. Like Nov or Dec. that the thread was closed. At least that is according to my dragon dates.

 

If there are still people encouraging multi's, (and there may be) it is most certainly not anywhere I am. I do think pushing things underground is not always the best choice, simply because it is hidden for the most part.

Edited October 25, 2013 by ainisarie

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I believe you, Sock. Still, given even the latest of your time estimates (late 2010), it's been a minimum of three years since the ban was instated, and I think it's high time people be given another chance. The forums are so much more regulated now than they used to be--with people reporting comments on completed dragon requests as spam, with mods having the time to edit IOU offers out of posts, with all the thousand other nitpicky things that go on--that the idea that a highly visible thread could suddenly be overrun by people telling others to cheat is... very hard for me to imagine. And if it DOES happen at such impossible levels that the mod squad can't handle it, then sure, shut it down again. But keeping it banned just on fears that the events of three years ago might happen again, when so much in the forums has changed, seems silly.

[KageSora]

I really gotta once again agree with the idea of "pushing it underground isn't going to stop it".

 

I've personally seen at least one group on another site for DC users that actually had mods basically saying "If you're actually going to go reporting people who have more than one scroll, you better give us all a good heads up" with the "so we can try to keep ourselves out of trouble by trying to pretend we had no idea it was against the rules" heavily implied, with at least one or two members arguing with the idea that you should report anybody for breaking the rules at all because they felt it was just fine because hey--what the mods/TJ don't see isn't actually wrong to do even if it's breaking rules.

 

So, y'know, it happens plenty that people have more than one scroll.

 

Bringing the discussion back here would just make it easier to keep tabs on the people who are encouraging it and/or actually doing it.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Also take into account that in 2010 we were only allowed 4 egg slots plus one that was breed only. Only having 4 slots was a HUGE part of folk multi-scrolling because of the time requirement involved in making an ND.

 

Today tho, we have as many as 7 slots to play with... plus Incubate, plus an additional 14 hatchling slots.. so most folk aren't egg locked for more than 2 days at a time.

 

I believe that alone would mitigate most of the problems from the past.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Not to mention the huge stash of low-time CB eggs sitting around in the AP... sure, you'd have to figure out the proper time of death on them, but I imagine doing that takes considerably less time than waiting the full seven days a cave egg would require!

[DarkEternity]

What about permanently forum banning and IP banning from the main game anyone who so much suggests that multiaccounting should take place?

Edited October 25, 2013 by DarkEternity

[mpolo]

I had heard the "reverse engineering" reason, but the multiscrolling reason seems much more plausible and defensible. While there may well be various small communities of multiscrollers still doing this, if it is exposed on the main forum, we're going to have a lot more multiscrolling. And while TJ can detect it, it does involve work for him to do so, so that a huge increase in multiscrolling would mean no more development of the website, possibly delayed or canceled monthly releases and the like.

 

Which means that we really need a solution to multiscrolling before such a topic gets opened again.

 

On the other hand, I am highly in favor of being able to share this information so that people can experiment with greater chance of success.

[Switch]

yeah i really think the ban should be lifted for basically every reason everybody else has already said

[KageSora]

While there may well be various small communities of multiscrollers still doing this, if it is exposed on the main forum, we're going to have a lot more multiscrolling.

I don't think we can be sure that it will lead to mass multi-scrolling again.

 

I mean, it feels like the community is more vigilant against rule-breaking and mods are more than willing to and capable of handing out warns where they're deserved.

 

And, of course, if it does end in massive upswings in multi-scrolling again, then it can always be banned again.

 

 

What about permanently forum banning and IP banning from the main game anyone who so much suggests that multiaccounting should take place?

I think something that severe should be saved for after more than one warning--it's actually entirely possible some people don't realize, until they're told, that it's against the rules.

 

The DC T&C isn't very hard to read, but still some people just automatically skip over it.

 

While ignorance of the rules doesn't negate any breakage of said rules, I do think it's a bit harsh to totally and permanently ban a person who might otherwise have willingly turned themselves over and given up all but one scroll upon being told that it was against the rules to have more than one.

[Lastalda]

I'm definitely in support of this!

 

Until quite recently, I thought the reason for the Ban was that it was considered Reverse Engineering. But fear of Multiscrolling is a really weak reason for banning discussion on a topic! You could ban trading threads with the same reason - after all, multiscrolling enables you to catch and thereby offer more rares at once, right?

 

So. Lift the ban, make a new topic, put "MULTISCROLLING IS AGAINST THE RULES! DON'T DO IT; DON'T ENCOURAGE IT!!!" or something like it explicitly into the first post, and done!

And if anyone should be so stupid/ignorant to encourage Multiscrolling in that thread despite this, it's easy to report them! (And they'd probably get heavy rebukes from other members on top of it. I'm pretty sure most users here are quite annoyed if they notice others cheating.)