ANSWERED:Small Terminology Change

[angelicdragonpuppy]

And Unknown is so rare on DC that just having it in the same place as male/female would indicate to anyone with basic pattern recognition that it's the dragon's sex. I really don't think that "But kids will be confused!" is a good argument against it (and I don't think that "well the dictionary says X" is a good argument either but we don't need a linguistics derail here).

...Isn't this entire thread a linguistic derailment? And you can't really argue that word X means Y without using a dictionary, can you? Otherwise it's just a matter of preference and culture, in which case my ideas of the words have just as much weight as the other side's...

 

I still think it'd be confusing, or at the very least awkward, and either way having everything else (parents, owner, hatch date, etc) in the X: ___ format and then having a random word plunked in would look out of place. I mean, lineages follow a slightly different format, but with where they're placed it at least seems more... acceptable, if you will, that they don't follow the norm.

 

Sorry if I'm sounding cranky, but I'm really tired of people going around saying "oh no no no gender means X and sex means Y" when there doesn't seem to be any solid proof to them being right and others being wrong. Words are words... either they mean what we say they mean (in which case I see the two used interchangeably all the time) or they mean what the dictionary says they mean (in which case they STILL can mean the same thing). This discussion just feels really nitpicky and silly... :/

Edited September 19, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[KageSora]

I get the concerns, but I still think I'd like it changed--or at the very least, have the terminology dropped.

 

If we just go with the symbols, then we'd need a symbol to represent unknown, I think.

 

I agree with the idea that basic pattern recognition should allow people to figure out that unknown is the sex of the dragon since they're not exactly likely to be ones that a new player loads up on right away.

 

 

It won't kill me to leave it in, of course, but I'd still rather see it changed because sex =/= gender, and it's getting increasingly annoying to see people who just assume it does. I like that it's getting wider recognition that the two are not really interchangeable.

 

Though, like I said, I understand the concerns--so removing the label in general wouldn't bother me. I'd rather see the label removed than have it kept as gender, personally.

Edited September 19, 2013 by KageSora

[dragongrrl]

...Isn't this entire thread a linguistic derailment? And you can't really argue that word X means Y without using a dictionary, can you? Otherwise it's just a matter of preference and culture, in which case my ideas of the words have just as much weight as the other side's...

 

I still think it'd be confusing, or at the very least awkward, and either way having everything else (parents, owner, hatch date, etc) in the X: ___ format and then having a random word plunked in would look out of place. I mean, lineages follow a slightly different format, but with where they're placed it at least seems more... acceptable, if you will, that they don't follow the norm.

 

Sorry if I'm sounding cranky, but I'm really tired of people going around saying "oh no no no gender means X and sex means Y" when there doesn't seem to be any solid proof to them being right and others being wrong. Words are words... either they mean what we say they mean (in which case I see the two used interchangeably all the time) or they mean what the dictionary says they mean (in which case they STILL can mean the same thing). This discussion just feels really nitpicky and silly... :/

I agree. I know people, including friends and family, who define gender and sex many different ways, and there is A LOT of overlap in the usage of the two words. Worrying about every tiny nuance of somebody's personal interpretation of the words just gets old.

 

Quit worrying about it, after all, this IS "DragCave" and you can take that ANY way you want!

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Quit worrying about it, after all, this IS "DragCave" and you can take that ANY way you want! 

Lol! Not gonna lie, there've been times I've been nervous to direct people here simply because I'm worried they'll get a very wrong impression of what the game's about X'D (although I still pushed at least a few people here regardless )

 

I'd rather focus on fixing the real errors (The Two-Head Lindwurms STILL haven't had their description typos fixed...) than on "fixing" something that really isn't broken.

Edited September 19, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[diaveborn]

Would there be anyone who saw "sex" who thought "the act of reproduction" who wouldn't get immediately un-confused when it says "male" or "female" or "unknown" right after? I'm not trying to say that the confusion would only be worth considering as a problem if it's not cleared up quickly - I'm genuinely curious about it

[Fuzzbucket]

Would there be anyone who saw "sex" who thought "the act of reproduction" who wouldn't get immediately un-confused when it says "male" or "female" or "unknown" right after? I'm not trying to say that the confusion would only be worth considering as a problem if it's not cleared up quickly - I'm genuinely curious about it

I do not want to see it changed (and I really DO think you'd find a lot of younger players - and even adult - from England who don't want to click a government box saying they want to be able to see porn - and that is what the boxes will say... - locked out of here if the word sex is used) and like ADP I do think it's nitpicking and that sex means too many things in different languages and so on. And that the difference is NOT writ in stone except in the biology lab.

 

But I think they would indeed be unconfused when they saw male/female, yes. But unknown, with no indication of what is unknown, doesn't work. Yes, it would be in the place for GENDER on the dragon's page - but if a cheese is the first dragon you hit....

[diaveborn]

*nod* For me it is hard to think "the act of reproduction: unknown" would be a valid option for interpretation if "biological sex: unknown" was an option, but that's probably because I've grown up with a certain way of looking at the words that people from other cultural/language groups wouldn't have.

 

unrelated point - I still do feel that when looking at different interpretations of words by people who speak the same language, higher priority should be given to an interpretation by any marginalized group (which, I know that even within those groups, word interpretations may be varied), though my inital support of this thread's suggestion has been mitigated somewhat with the whole UK porn thing! I tend to think parents censoring their children could make their own choices just fine about a site that has the word "sex" in it, but when it becomes a government issue there are factors that go beyond that - I'd hate to see adults feel like they couldn't use the site just because of a wording choice.

Edited September 20, 2013 by diaveborn

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes indeed.

 

Have a look at this.

 

THIS is what everyone will have to fill out when they get a new connection - and in the end all the big providers will be REQUIRED to block all that stuff by default unless you go in there and uncheck all the boxes; Which will be in record, so THEY will know exactly who has admitted they want to be able to see the word breast.

 

(and as an aside this[http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2013/09/uh-oh-uk-...ocks-vpns/]this.

 

You cannot allow this particular government to get away with this kind of thing. Indeed, not ANY government. But while it will very likely not get through THIS time, they will keep at it. See under China.... I was working in Public Health the year software was brought out that blocked all words like breast, sex, vagina, penis.... Schools were outraged and so were we.

Edited September 20, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[KageSora]

Just wondering, though... Does that mean it would block the entire DC or just the page where the word sex came up?

 

How, exactly, does it handle that? Does it just scan the page you want to load for various keywords? Or what?

[ulki]

Just wondering, though... Does that mean it would block the entire DC or just the page where the word sex came up?

 

How, exactly, does it handle that? Does it just scan the page you want to load for various keywords? Or what?

Most filters are based on the content on the page, so it's words and sometimes pictures.

It would probably filter whole domains rather than singel pages, as it seems to be a rather broad atemt at filtering and making the internet "famlily friendly".

 

So it could happen the entire site would not be accessible

[Fuzzbucket]

Just wondering, though... Does that mean it would block the entire DC or just the page where the word sex came up?

 

How, exactly, does it handle that? Does it just scan the page you want to load for various keywords? Or what?

God only knows - the British government is HOPELESS with IT. That's why it is likely to be a total and utter disaster. Whatever is the worst option, that is what will happen. With all possible associated unintended consequences.

 

I could cite all the things that have gone horribly wrong when they have got involved with IT - but UK readers will know, and feel sick when they think about it

[Starbit]

I am a UK user and agree it shouldn't be sex for the simple reason it will get caught up in all sorts of filters. At the end of the day accessibility of the site is more important than which word is more correct.

 

I would be very upset to be unable to access DC because people felt using the correct word was more important than people using the site.

 

I also disagree for the reasons of people who are non-native speakers could get very confused. I think either the Gender tag should be dropped or kept, but not sex.

[TikindiDragon]

God only knows - the British government is HOPELESS with IT. That's why it is likely to be a total and utter disaster. Whatever is the worst option, that is what will happen. With all possible associated unintended consequences.

 

I could cite all the things that have gone horribly wrong when they have got involved with IT - but UK readers will know, and feel sick when they think about it

I imagine there's a good chance we may all lose acess to the forum, too. Which would be a shame. But, yeah, UK Govt. is totally hopeless with IT. There's not a snowball's chance in hell it will actually do what they want it to do, and probably with masses of unintended consequences to boot.

 

That said we'd turn the filters off by default anyway, even if it was an opt-in kinda thing. Because let's face it, researching trans issues with them on simply wouldn't be possible.

[schmupti]

Sorry if I'm sounding cranky, but I'm really tired of people going around saying "oh no no no gender means X and sex means Y" when there doesn't seem to be any solid proof to them being right and others being wrong.

It's a distinction that's been around since the 1950s, and comes in useful in drawing a distinction between biology and culture, among other things. It's not so much a right/wrong thing as, again, a crows vs. ravens thing--if you're not an ornithologist, then for you functionally there is no difference between one black bird and another, and people nitpicking at your raven drawings is a PITA. On the other hand, that doesn't mean the ornithologist is making it all up just to spite you--he's got a reason for labelling them separately.

 

You don't see the need or sense in changing it; I get that. But I don't understand your argument against it. Others are pointing out functional issues (e.g. nanny filter problems), your point is less clear, and comes across as, "Don't change it because why do we have to be all PC?"

[Wahya]

Well this sucks. Other than government issues I don't see why people are so against it.

 

It's like this - biologically I am a female. I carry two copies of the X chromosome, so my sex is female. But my gender is NOT female/feminine. I'm androgynous most of the time, leaning toward masculinity. That's why no matter what context the words are being used in (DC, a form for a scholarship, a survey, etc.) misuse of the two words irritates me.

[dragongrrl]

From Wikipedia - and this is very much inline with my understanding of the term -

Gender is the range of physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity.[1][2][3] Depending on the context, the term may refer to biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.[1][2][3][4]

 

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[5][6] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[4] In many other contexts, however, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has undergone a usage shift to include sex or even to replace the latter word.[1][2] Although this gradual change in the meaning of gender can be traced to the 1980s, a small acceleration of the process in the scientific literature was observed when, in 1993, the Food and Drug Administration started to use gender instead of sex.[7] Gender is now commonly used even to refer to the physiology of non-human animals, without any implication of social gender roles.[2]

 

In the English literature, the trichotomy between biological sex, psychological gender, and social sex role first appeared in a feminist paper on transsexualism in 1978.[2][8] Some cultures have specific gender-related social roles that can be considered distinct from male and female, such as the hijra of India and Pakistan.

 

The social sciences have a branch devoted to gender studies. Other sciences, such as psychology, sexology and neuroscience, are also interested in the subject. While the social sciences sometimes approach gender as a social construct, and gender studies particularly do, research in the natural sciences investigates whether biological differences in males and females influence the development of gender in humans; both inform debate about how far biological differences influence the formation of gender identity.

 

The bolding is mine, and I believe it applies easily to our dragons.

 

It seems the meaning of the term has fluctuated quite a bit in my lifetime, and growing up in the SF Bay Area, there is always some attempt at awareness of what the correct designation would apply. However, as a lesbian friend once explained, it's just like her big toe, she has a big toe, and she is a lesbian, but those are both simply parts of who she is, and do not define her total being.

 

My little brother is now my sister, but both male and female genders are still a part of her identity. Transgender implies a crossing of the gender line.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

You don't see the need or sense in changing it; I get that. But I don't understand your argument against it. Others are pointing out functional issues (e.g. nanny filter problems), your point is less clear, and comes across as, "Don't change it because why do we have to be all PC?"

I think being PC has made the world much stupider and more prone to being offended than it needs to be, so yes, that would be part of it. I've also listed a few other reasons, however--you're citing the raven vs. crow thing and the culture vs. biology thing, but if I can go into a pretty major dictionary and see gender listed as being synonymous for sex (which, I can) then I still fail to see how it's incorrect as-is and needs to be changed. The very same dictionary I mentioned earlier defines a raven as being what it is--a raven--not a synonym for any black bird, so I can understand saying that that's wrong, because it is (especially because I AM one of those people who knows the differences between birds, hah)--but I STILL have yet to see solid proof that using gender to mean sex is some horribly misguided word choice. You say it's a distinction that's been around since 1950, but the dictionary is saying another thing, so...

 

...Which I supposes goes back to the PC thing, but heh, whatever. I still feel it's making a big issue out of nothing, and while I suppose you could say the same thing of me for opposing it, I'd still rather be on the side that keeps the other side from pushing people around to fit their overly fastidious definitions of words.

Edited September 20, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

I think being PC has made the world much stupider and more prone to being offended than it needs to be, so yes, that would be part of it. I've also listed a few other reasons, however--you're citing the raven vs. crow thing and the culture vs. biology thing, but if I can go into a pretty major dictionary and see gender listed as being synonymous for sex (which, I can) then I still fail to see how it's incorrect as-is and needs to be changed. The very same dictionary I mentioned earlier defines a raven as being what it is--a raven--not a synonym for any black bird, so I can understand saying that that's wrong, because it is (especially because I AM one of those people who knows the differences between birds, hah)--but I STILL have yet to see solid proof that using gender to mean sex is some horribly misguided word choice. You say it's a distinction that's been around since 1950, but the dictionary is saying another thing, so...

 

...Which I supposes goes back to the PC thing, but heh, whatever. I still feel it's making a big issue out of nothing, and while I suppose you could say the same thing of me for opposing it, I'd still rather be on the side that keeps the other side from pushing people around to fit their overly fastidious definitions of words.

This and also what dragongrrl said. Gender DOES feature in dictionaries in both senses, and language does change all the time - and - critically - this is NOT a monocultural/linguistic site.

 

I am still annoyed about reports that refer to "attendees" at conferences, as the -ee suffix is (correctly) used in the passive sense of someone who has had something done to them (as in lessor/lessee) but I have given up - because everyone understands it and pretty soon it will - by dint of being the norm - become the "correct" usage. And don't get me started on disinterested, which means impartial - but has swung in both directions of meaning over the years, and you have to pay attention in case the speaker means it to mean uninterested.

 

The important thing is that everyone on site, from everywhere in the world, understands what gender means as applied to their dragons. Isn't that the most important thing ?

[Pikabubba]

I chose no to changing the term. Why? Simply because I'm old and don't like unnecessary changes. (I know its necessary to some of you , but I see that this discussion has blown up for something that was supposed to be so simple @.@)

 

As someone else mentioned, I rather see things get fixed that need fixing. Not change something that could cause further issues.

[Obscure_Trash]

I don't really want the identifier done away with completely, but other than that, I'm okay if it's sex or gender, so I chose neutral.

 

I was going to bring up what dragongrrl brought up about how gender v. sex applies to other animals. But it wouldn't hurt me either way if it was sex or gender. I have approved quite a few trans dragons anyway.

[diaveborn]

Regarding "I still feel it's making a big issue out of nothing" - I always hope statements like this are just based on ignorance, but I've seen too many people accompany it with things less understandable to me for this not to make me sad.

 

Regarding "pushing people around" - For me, when I change a wording choice in my personal speech I do it out of respect and an attempt at understanding and empathy, and the recognition that if anybody is a little pushy about the matter it's probably because they've faced challenges that have made them incredibly frustrated, at the very least.

 

And I'm done being off topic, sorry.

[Drakefyre]

I think that dragons are animals. Gender is the correct term when reffering to animals, so I vote to leave it alone.

[TJ09]

I think within the context of DC, trying to make the case that the distinction between the two terms is enough to warrant a switch is a bit pedantic. I certainly don't think a change is needed, despite the arguments made in this thread.