Single and child free by choice

[BlitzDrake]

actually, that guy has guts, that many men lack. He's honest about how he feels now, and would neither force her nor do something behind her back.

 

Whatever other shortcomings he has, this I had to mention, because its not the usual way, however much I would want it to be that way. Honesty in relationships (both sides) is rare.

Yeah. How he feels NOW. He never said a WORD for the year they got married. He basically sat there and listened to her say she hates kids, how she didnt want any. It wouldve been better if he just cut it off there rather than get married and then think she needs to give him kids. So no. If he had any guts and respect, he would've broke the relationship off then and there.

[hazeh]

Yeah, I feel like waiting to use marriage as a tool to manipulate his wife to get what he wants does not make him a courageous person. That's a pretty nasty move. As well as his mindset, as per the quote you posted, is gross and I hope that his wife finds a different partner that respects her.

[Obscure_Trash]

I'm just really frustrated with the idea that even after discussing how she hates kid/doesn't want them the husband didn't speak up..or change his mind..til now. Like, you marry someone for them, you love THEM..not what they can PRODUCE for you. their marriage was not a business arrangement so any temptation to say "we had a deal" (the husband is using the concept that because they are married she should tend to his needs) strikes me as enormously crass. Not to mention why would you want someone who doesn't want a kid to have a kid?

 

Edit: This is basically what he said:

I never had doubts about our future until recently, when my wife made it clear that she does not want to have children. She has always made that clear, but when we met we were so young (he is 33 she is 32 now. They met around early 20's. Got married back in 2012) that I figured her views would change as we gained the financial means to support a family and her motherly instincts would come. While I would never force her to have children she doesn’t want, I also don’t know if I can be happy forfeiting my chance to be a father. I love my wife, and don’t want to leave her. But I’m still relatively young. Should I get out while I still have time to start over?

I completely understand. Actually, my first reply was a lot more strongly worded, but I didn't want to be presumptuous of their relationship. My original reply included a line about wishing them a happy divorce and hoping he would be more honest with anybody else he met and that they could both be in happier, more honest relationships.

 

It's pretty disgusting that he tried to trap her in marriage just to get what he wanted, though. =\

[Aprilis]

I completely understand. Actually, my first reply was a lot more strongly worded, but I didn't want to be presumptuous of their relationship. My original reply included a line about wishing them a happy divorce and hoping he would be more honest with anybody else he met and that they could both be in happier, more honest relationships.

 

It's pretty disgusting that he tried to trap her in marriage just to get what he wanted, though. =\

I've actually heard more than once of cases of this happening; men marry women, who have outwardly expressed the desire to not have kids, under the condescending and sexist assumption that they'll change their minds later because "OMG BIOLOGICAL CLOCK!"

[Syaoransbear]

What would that guy do if his wife COULDN'T have kids instead of just hated them? Would he divorce her for being infertile? Actually what would be pretty funny is if he divorced his current wife, married some other girl, found out he was infertile and then his new wife divorced him because he couldn't give her children.

 

Me and my husband talked about this and we both have the exact same view: while neither of us wants kids and we don't plan on having any, we're also indifferent enough about it that if the other person wanted kids it wouldn't be a big deal to have them and it certainly would never be something we'd divorce over. We do not feel strongly enough about having kids or not having kids that it would make us leave each other, we'd just really prefer to not have them.

[Brite]

What would that guy do if his wife COULDN'T have kids instead of just hated them? Would he divorce her for being infertile? Actually what would be pretty funny is if he divorced his current wife, married some other girl, found out he was infertile and then his new wife divorced him because he couldn't give her children.

 

Me and my husband talked about this and we both have the exact same view: while neither of us wants kids and we don't plan on having any, we're also indifferent enough about it that if the other person wanted kids it wouldn't be a big deal to have them and it certainly would never be something we'd divorce over. We do not feel strongly enough about having kids or not having kids that it would make us leave each other, we'd just really prefer to not have them.

Good point. And I've sadly met women who were divorced because they were unable to have children and their husbands blamed them for it and broke it off.

[violetblue123]

I'm only 15, but I already know that I don't want kids. Besides the fact that I dislike them, I wouldn't want to pass down the genetic disorder I have. It's hard enough living with it, but having a kid with the same thing on top of that would just be living hell. I'm always told that I'll "change my mind" and I'll want them eventually. This really annoys me, because people always seem to think they know what I want and/or what is best for me better than I do, and they don't

THANK YOU

*claps*

[Vhale]

actually, that guy has guts, that many men lack. He's honest about how he feels now, and would neither force her nor do something behind her back.

 

Whatever other shortcomings he has, this I had to mention, because its not the usual way, however much I would want it to be that way. Honesty in relationships (both sides) is rare.

"Honesty" may not make things better in this case. We used to do child care in our home and our most disturbing couple was one where the husband did exactly what was described here. He told his wife, no kids = divorce after she was very clear she hated them. And I can verify, she really, really did. She would do things like stand talking to other parents with one hand on her sons head and tell them how much she hated kids and how her husband blackmailed her into it. We're pretty sure we found cigarette burns on the kids arm and reported it to child services, but she was friends with a person that had a relative there, so I don't think anything came of it. The last I heard of him, at about 6, he was starting to act out by doing things like opening the fridge and peeing into the vegetable drawer.

Not a happy home situation. At all.

[whitebaron]

Yeah. How he feels NOW. He never said a WORD for the year they got married. He basically sat there and listened to her say she hates kids, how she didnt want any. It wouldve been better if he just cut it off there rather than get married and then think she needs to give him kids. So no. If he had any guts and respect, he would've broke the relationship off then and there.

You're coloring this very one-sidedly, and as you are friends with her, thats quite understandable.

 

Blaming and shaming won't do any good to both of them, though. Go and support your friend, not make war on the husband. Many divorces and relationship problems get a lot uglier because of good "friends" cementing in the thoughts of "how he/she has always been XXX".

 

People don't always know what hits them and they want their life changed. This includes suddenly wanting children, suddenly wanting them no more, suddenly being of other sexual desires or without any, hyperactivity or depression. (or worst: all of it together) And such a change might get realized soon, late or too late.

 

You're all demonizing a man who says what he wants NOW. I think that deserves respect, not your shame and blame.

 

 

@vhale: stealing a quote from amazonwarrior, here: the plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, people neglect their kids. It might be a bit more likely where they never wanted any. But it typically has nothing to do with whether they talked about it or not.

 

 

@ghostchilli: well, better than running around having girlfriends behind their backs, getting kids and leavung then, or worse, trying to force them to be involved, too.

Edited January 19, 2014 by whitebaron

[tenyasyugan]

The end result is still that a partner who does not want a kid and has expressed distaste for having a kid should likely not be made to have a kid? Because while it's fine and dandy for the guy to be like "you know what I changed my mind" what makes it wrong is that he does so with the expectation that she should/will as well, which is clearly not gonna happen in most cases. What does end up happening is either the partner who is unwilling to have children is pressured into doing so and continues to have regrets throughout the entire rearing process [which is unhealthy for everyone], or the forceful partner shames the other and separates from the relationship, showing how their priorities are [which are really biased in their own favor when a relationship should be about communication and acceptance without allowing abuse].

[Obscure_Trash]

You're all demonizing a man who says what he wants NOW. I think that deserves respect, not your shame and blame.

I never had doubts about our future until recently, when my wife made it clear that she does not want to have children. She has always made that clear, but when we met we were so young (he is 33 she is 32 now. They met around early 20's. Got married back in 2012) that I figured her views would change as we gained the financial means to support a family and her motherly instincts would come. While I would never force her to have children she doesn’t want, I also don’t know if I can be happy forfeiting my chance to be a father. I love my wife, and don’t want to leave her. But I’m still relatively young. Should I get out while I still have time to start over?

[whitebaron]

Look at this statement. Its the only thing we know about this guy except for a friend of his wifes outrage. Its honest, not malicious. Its a little naive (motherly instincts) but thats about it.

Demonizing him because of this is one thing i'll start discussing in another thread (sexism). Because honestly, double standard.

Edited January 19, 2014 by whitebaron

[tenyasyugan]

Sexism actually does heavily relate to ones ability to choose whether or not to have children in society so I can understandably see it being involved in this conversation as I myself have experienced pretty high pressure recently by relatives that child bearing is something that I "should" do in the future even if I don't necessarily "want" to. It goes hand in hand with the "maternal" ideal which enforces misogynistic views that expect any person who happens to have female reproductive organs to bear children.

 

So, yeah, the guy was being a jerk when he said those things in regards to his ex-wife, mainly due to the sexist societal view of women being birthers always even if it is regularly accepted for males to go through their lives without having any children.

 

Like, if anything a man might be chastised for not leaving any heirs but that doesn't normally happen until he reaches his forties.

 

Meanwhile a woman may be pegged into a corner at the young age of five with toys that enforce the idea of having to be a mother and a parental figure, which many kids may actually not enjoy or want to do or even consider as they grow up. Heck, a woman who goes her whole life without having a kid can be insulted as an "old crone".

 

If we were in a situation where these were things that didn't happen, then we could happily discuss lack of sexuality freely without having to bring up sexism, but since it's involved it will come up at times.

[Syaoransbear]

Look at this statement. Its the only thing we know about this guy except for a friend of his wifes outrage. Its honest, not malicious. Its a little naive (motherly instincts) but thats about it.

Demonizing him because of this is one thing i'll start discussing in another thread (sexism). Because honestly, double standard.

What double standard? We'd demonize a woman who got married to a guy who hated children then later divorced him because he didn't come around to liking children later. I've already posted about how that happened to a friend of mine who is female who did this exact same thing to her (now ex)husband and nobody said "oh poor woman". She was an idiot. People who marry someone hoping they will change are complete idiots, especially when the change they want is a dealbreaker if it doesn't happen.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[Kestra15]

Once again when the discussion came up I was told 'oh but it's different when it's *your* child.'

 

But what if it isn't? Why don't people get this - I don't *want* to get it wrong. I don't want to be handed a bundle of vomit and poo and find out I feel nothing for it.

 

I'm more confident I will love and care for any sprog of mine now i've had experience of being an uncle, but it still scares me to think 'what if I get it wrong like the rest of my family do?'

[Syaoransbear]

Once again when the discussion came up I was told 'oh but it's different when it's *your* child.'

I was told this exact same thing about two weeks ago. It doesn't even make sense. What is 'different'? Does the baby actually sleep all through the night when it's yours? Does the baby change its own diaper, take care of itself when you leave the house or go on vacation, get a job to support itself so you don't waste all of your money on it, feed and bathe itself? Does the baby not scream or cry constantly, throw food, throw tantrums, punch/kick/bite, etc, when it's yours?

 

I get that all those things are supposed to be more tolerable when it's yours and that's why it's supposedly different, but that's just not good enough. I don't want a little bundle of barely-tolerable. Especially when it's inevitably going to compromise the quality of my marriage.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[Vhale]

Look at this statement. Its the only thing we know about this guy except for a friend of his wifes outrage. Its honest, not malicious. Its a little naive (motherly instincts) but thats about it.

Demonizing him because of this is one thing i'll start discussing in another thread (sexism). Because honestly, double standard.

If it was honest, imo, he'd simply go through the divorce instead of pressuring her into having kids for him. But he is. That's a pretty big deal if she has any feelings for him whatsoever, not to mention whatever their financial situation is. She's older so her prospects are down to and she probably thought she was in a good place to worry about travel and retirement funding. Not so much if you suddenly get your income halved. And it looks like he still thinks that once she gets a baby in her hands her motherly instincts will flip on like a switch.

 

By your definition, we should all be heroes for being honest about how we feel about what he's doing and you are demonizing us. After all, I don't think he's being malicious like you implied. I do think he's painfully naive and a moron. I could care less that it's a guy doing it, it's just as bad the other way.

 

@at the rest of your statement, feel free to trot out some facts, otherwise, that's just a set of general opinions based on nothing. And not really relative to my point.

[BlitzDrake]

Blaming and shaming won't do any good to both of them, though. Go and support your friend, not make war on the husband.

 

And such a change might get realized soon, late or too late.

 

You're all demonizing a man who says what he wants NOW. I think that deserves respect, not your shame and blame.

 

1) Not making war on anyone. Stating disgust for this line of thinking. Yeah and when she came over and cried for two hours about how she felt so betrayed, how she couldn't believe that he would change/do this, how if he had said this before they got married she would've broke it off then and there because she wold rather him be happy with what he wants. He didn't bring that up until after they got married. I thought the husband was a good guy and I had no problems with him, I thought they both were perfect together. I thought the guy was awesome. So when this happened yeah, I can't say I respect what and how he did it.

 

2) Thus is true. You can change your mind but if people loved each other then they could've worked something out. If she feared being pregnant then they could adopt. If she didn't want kids in any aspect and her husband merely then decided to take back his vows and all how he said he'd love her no matter what, if he took that back because of his change of mind over ONE thing he didn't have that much love for her in the first place. To me at least, you can get over many challenges in a marriage and one thing shouldn't kill it.

 

3) Yes I am.

 

Edit: Vhale explained it well

Edited January 19, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[Infinis]

Look at this statement. Its the only thing we know about this guy except for a friend of his wifes outrage. Its honest, not malicious. Its a little naive (motherly instincts) but thats about it.

Demonizing him because of this is one thing i'll start discussing in another thread (sexism). Because honestly, double standard.

Honest, maybe.

 

This doesn't change the fact that he's an idiot - not only for following the misguided and backwards view that all women have motherly instincts that magically happen someday, but for not speaking up about wanting children instead of joking along with her about hating kids.

 

The fact of the matter is it should never have come down to the threat of divorce over not having children. This is something that appears to have come up at LEAST once before they were married, thus there was at least one opportune moment to discuss it.

 

People need to THINK before they get married, men and women alike, and get issues like this out of the way. Trying to change someone to fit your standards - which happens far too much - doesn't work. You shouldn't have to change completely for someone and neither should someone have to change completely for you. It seems significantly easier to actually find someone you're compatible with to start in the long run.

 

I'm not sure how this is sexism or a double standard. Anyone in any relationship who pulls this kind of nonsense is just as stupid.

 

Once again when the discussion came up I was told 'oh but it's different when it's *your* child.'

 

This often comes up with my mom when we talk about this, but she seems to totally miss every time I ever said or say that I hate children.

 

No one seems to understand that I value independence and self-sufficiency very highly, and because of that, a thing that is completely dependent on me for a number of years is an unremittingly horrifying thought.

 

Yes, I have babysat before, and it wasn't for a baby, but older children in elementary school. I didn't enjoy it. If I don't enjoy elementary school children that AREN'T mine and therefore don't require round-the-clock care from me, how on earth do people expect me to take of something that does require that kind of care from me? I can't even remember to take my daily multivitamin most of the time!

 

And on top of that I don't deal with screaming and tantruming. I can't even have music turned up loud. I don't want to clean up poo or pee or change diapers. I don't want to lose sleep.

 

I'd take a cat any day, thanks.

[Syaoransbear]

THIS GUY IS NOT HONEST. It is not honesty to lie in the beginning and then tell the truth later because your lies have begun to inconvenience you. Honesty is never lying in the first place.

 

He told the truth now but all those years they were together he pretended like he didn't want a child either when he knew he wanted one. In what horrible relationship is this honesty if he never told her about his dealbreaker in the beginning and only told her after they got married. He's ruined her life.

 

People need to be upfront about things like this not only before they get married but before they even pursue a romantic relationship with each other.

[whitebaron]

@vhale, infinis: I did not see that "kids or divorce" line in his statement.

I still dont. Its getting interpreted that way, maybe, but from,what was written here, I just dont get how you can say this. It even said "i dont want to force her"...

 

 

That aside, @syaoran: you dont know that guy. You assume its malice or intent, when it could perfectly be just stupidity. (i call that prejudice)

 

Lastly, about changes when its your own: yes, your attitude changes a lot. You are also getting used to much in,a very short time. Still does not change a thing if its unwanted though.

Edited January 19, 2014 by whitebaron

[BlitzDrake]

It is true in the sense he's not forcing her to have kids..directly. So yes he did say he didn't want to force her but he put her on the spot by now saying if she didn't want to have kids he was going to file for divorce. I will admit it's kinda hard to define (I guess). He indirectly is forcing her to chose between their marriage or have kids that she doesn't want. :I

 

Edited January 19, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[Syaoransbear]

That aside, @syaoran: you dont know that guy. You assume its malice or intent, when it could perfectly be just stupidity. (i call that prejudice)

No I don't. I think he was grossly naive for marrying someone knowing he could only be happy with them if they changed who they were. Stop assuming that I'm assuming something I'm not. Lying out of stupidity is still dishonesty. Dishonesty is dishonesty, it doesn't matter what his intentions are. Although it's pretty damn insulting to disregard her opinions and hope she'll just be overcome by hormones enough to trump her personal feelings about children.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[whitebaron]

He indirectly is forcing her to chose between their marriage or have kids that she doesn't want. :I

Go back 1 year in the past. if he had done the same thing back then, it would be the same choice: kids or marriage. Ending a long term relationship is always tough. A divorce, however, is just some paperwork. A footnote. Neither hard nor expensve to do, if both parties reach some kind of consent.

[7Deadly$ins]

If he knew that it was going to be that way, he should've done that from the start.