Lineage view change

[Sycamore]

Yeah, I just don't get it. In terms of scrolling, lineages are effectively only one generation shorter after the change. For any big even gen like this one you're still gonna be doing lots of scrolling to see the whole thing.

 

The only 'problem' I can imaging the new view being intended to fix is the vertical length of big lineages. If the change somehow made whole lineages visible no matter how long they were, that would be one thing, but this hardly makes a difference in the length AND screws up the appearance of the lineages in the process.

[dragongrrl]

With all but even gens back to normal I kinda feel even gens lovers are being punished

It really does feel that way. I wish it didn't. The bulk of my scroll is geared toward even-gens, with almost 1500 CBs ready to build, and I don't like the look beyond 4 gens now.

 

I have a few stairsteps, most of them from Prize lines of some type, and may try to breed some patterns, but they just don't really interest me the same way as the even gens.

[Keileon]

I actually don't mind the way the format is, but it's most likely a glitch so.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So I'm finally on a desktop computer and uh, yah. This is hideous. Would anyone like to PM TJ, or should I do so myself? I mean, he's probably already seen this topic, but... trying to contact him more directly can't do any more harm than good.

 

But yah, this. It looks like two different styles mushed together. It is not pretty. Kind of ruins the meaning of a 'checkerboard' if the most important and numerous boxes aren't the same size as every single other one, now don't it? :/

 

[ElayneDragonLover]

I am really upset that they changed all other types back but even gens. It doesn't make sense if you only do it for the first gen of an even gen! Like someone else said, I feel punished. Especially since I just decided to go past 4th gens for the first time and bred some nice 5th and 6th gens and now they will not be appreciated at as much.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Another thing to consider (it's been mentioned before, but I'm gonna say it again) is that CBs in even gens are often the most important parts of them. They might not matter as much in, say, a Sunsong x Water lineage, but when you consider things like Thuweds, Spriter's Alts, CB Alts, Midas Dorkface--almost always the most defining parts of a fancy lineage lie in the CBs. I can't think of a single lineaged dragon that would be more important to spot in a lineage than Nakase's Rosebud or a Thuwed pair. And yet right now that very important part of the lineage is having all the images shrunk down so those special things are hard to spot... :/

[aqua17]

If it's at least consistently left-aligned for CBs only on even gens only, at no less than the original smaller size, I guess I can live with that, though it still looks way too crowded and busy. However, the midget 10px images are stupid.

 

Perhaps the best option, though, really would be an option. And it wouldn't even have to be an account setting. Scrolls now have that dropdown that allow them to be sorted on the fly without actually changing the order. What if lineages have something similar, to allow selection of "default" lineage view, images only, or names only? Then people could have a more compact version for smaller screens, and it's their choice whether the priority should be the names or the sprites. The full lineage would also still be available. And the sprites would never have to be scrunched so much that they become useless. Win-win, in my book! And probably even easier to code than all the checking currently happening to determine which way any given lineage should be displayed.

I agree completely, I had suggested this myself earlier. I just think this is the best way to please the majority who is a against the change and the few who actually like it.

 

Aquamyrine

[Tiki G]

So I'm finally on a desktop computer and uh, yah. This is hideous. Would anyone like to PM TJ, or should I do so myself? I mean, he's probably already seen this topic, but... trying to contact him more directly can't do any more harm than good.

Good luck. I tried asking him directly twice and got no response. But do let us know if he does reply. I would really like it if he gave an explanation. (and change it back to the way it was, but I'm not holding my breath)

[smileytechie]

I am really upset that they changed all other types back but even gens. It doesn't make sense if you only do it for the first gen of an even gen! Like someone else said, I feel punished. Especially since I just decided to go past 4th gens for the first time and bred some nice 5th and 6th gens and now they will not be appreciated at as much.

It does make sense if overall lineage size is the main criterion. Making the first gen one line per dragon and making those images smaller significantly reduces the size of the lineage. Making the other gens one line would make the lineage wider, but not shorter, since the boxes have to be large enough to fit the first gens. Also, for stairsteps/spirals/etc, the change didn't have a significant impact on size. So it makes sense to only change the first gens in even gens.

 

Of course, to most people the negative change in appearance outweighs any reduction in size. But the change isn't a punishment to even gen makers. While the majority of people think lineages look less attractive now, not everyone thinks so. From the point of view of people who don't think this ruins the look of lineages, the change makes sense.

 

Hopefully, TJ will go with the point of view of the majority of this thread, and revert the changes if no adequate compromise can be found. Personally, I'm not too bothered by the change, and even prefer it over the old format for some lineages. But I'd rather it not be forced on anyone, especially given how many people absolutely hate it. Ideally, I would like there to be options like bbik suggested, and name wrapping for non-cbs to get rid of some width with minimal controversy.

[rayden54]

UGLY. That's about the only thing that springs to mind.

[Guillotine]

It does make sense if overall lineage size is the main criterion. Making the first gen one line per dragon and making those images smaller significantly reduces the size of the lineage. Making the other gens one line would make the lineage wider, but not shorter, since the boxes have to be large enough to fit the first gens. Also, for stairsteps/spirals/etc, the change didn't have a significant impact on size. So it makes sense to only change the first gens in even gens.

But... it doesn't have an impact in size on the really big EGs (which were the problematic ones). So it's a change that effectively punishes anyone who has a dragon in the first gen (like an alt or Thuwed) that they want to show off. :/

 

A more efficient change would be to fix the table size and make the names wrap if they get too long on ALL gens, but since TJ is actively ignoring what we think on the matter that isn't going to happen.

[smileytechie]

But... it doesn't have an impact in size on the really big EGs (which were the problematic ones). So it's a change that effectively punishes anyone who has a dragon in the first gen (like an alt or Thuwed) that they want to show off. :/

 

A more efficient change would be to fix the table size and make the names wrap if they get too long on ALL gens, but since TJ is actively ignoring what we think on the matter that isn't going to happen.

I think this is just another personal difference, then. I saw the change in size as significant and the overall appearance as okay, while others see the size change as insignificant and the new appearance as ugly.

 

After rereading some comments, I think I misunderstood people saying they "feel punished" as saying "this is a punishment", when they meant "this punishes us". If that's right, I'm sorry about misunderstanding at first. I was mainly responding to that subtlety of wording. I agree the change punishes some people, but not that it is a punishment. To me, calling the change a punishment implies that the negative effects were the reason for the change. A punishment is intended to punish people, but something that punishes people is not always a punishment. My argument was that TJ's intentions were good, and the fact that it punishes some people is a side effect.

 

It sounds like there's a pretty clear consensus on what changes people want and don't want, so I'm pretty optimistic about the chances of a better change. I don't think TJ is ignoring us. It's normal for him to respond to people through action without written reply. For instance, he changed the Turpentines' biome in response to the artist's post about it, without telling her first. And for this lineage change, he's been tweaking things even though he's not talking about it. If things stay the same for a long while and he doesn't say anything to explain that, then I'll worry.

[dragongrrl]

I think this is just another personal difference, then. I saw the change in size as significant and the overall appearance as okay, while others see the size change as insignificant and the new appearance as ugly.

 

After rereading some comments, I think I misunderstood people saying they "feel punished" as saying "this is a punishment", when they meant "this punishes us". If that's right, I'm sorry about misunderstanding at first. I was mainly responding to that subtlety of wording. I agree the change punishes some people, but not that it is a punishment. To me, calling the change a punishment implies that the negative effects were the reason for the change. A punishment is intended to punish people, but something that punishes people is not always a punishment. My argument was that TJ's intentions were good, and the fact that it punishes some people is a side effect.

 

It sounds like there's a pretty clear consensus on what changes people want and don't want, so I'm pretty optimistic about the chances of a better change. I don't think TJ is ignoring us. It's normal for him to respond to people through action without written reply. For instance, he changed the Turpentines' biome in response to the artist's post about it, without telling her first. And for this lineage change, he's been tweaking things even though he's not talking about it. If things stay the same for a long while and he doesn't say anything to explain that, then I'll worry.

This change is significant in its effect upon the appearance of the our lineages. It removes the balance and the artistry being displayed in the CB line, destroying the signifigance of our designs. If it were insignificant, it wouldn't matter.

 

That said, I've stood with many of the changes that have happened in the Cave. I could see where TJ was going with most of the recent AP changes, and supported the changes as they were fluctuating all over the place, while many were going through varying degrees of panic. He was tweaking it, and I think most came to see that the Biomes and the AP work together much better now.

 

I hope he is listening and will do the right thing, but right now, those of us who prefer the even gens are feeling abandoned and hurt by the size reductions. The fact that other lineages were restored, http://dragcave.net/lineage/aD2Ac, while the even gens are ignored, http://dragcave.net/lineage/Q4tcU, adds to that feeling. My Angelic Holly Fantasy now looks like an Angelic Holly Nightmare, with the Snow Angels and Hollies little more than dots, and while this lineage is composed of AP finds, it would do the same to the many plans that I have for future lineages.

[Natayah]

While I certainly dislike the changes.... they haven't been in effect for that long. And I know there is an interest in balancing the look of lineages on the small screens of mobiles and different tablets vs computers. And the change isn't that old.

 

I'm at least glad TJ cares enough to poke around with it. As he hasn't responded, I wouldn't necessarily say this is a change that is perma and that he may be mucking around with the Lineage Layout until he finds something that works better for as may people as possible. And mucking around with the lineage layout just isn't going to take the same priority of releasing dragons and game stability and such.

 

However, I think we should still give him a chance to respond. It is over a major holiday weekend and it may be a few weeks to a month before we get a response if the tweaks are being done as part of an ongoing project or if its here to stay.

 

While I certainly don't like the first Gen fix as I work really hard on keeping my dragon gens pretty, I still want to give mod and admin team some time to respond before jumping the gun on any conclusions or outcries.

 

So no Sticking Chickens to Turpentines for me yet (tar and feather.....)

[Wiz]

However, I think we should still give him a chance to respond.

While I can see the sense in this and know from past experience that TJ does indeed listen I also feel that he needs to know that for many of us this isn't the usual automatic "it's horrible change it back" reaction that always happens when a change is made to the game. For many of us this is a genuine dislike that isn't going to go away. My fear is that if we go quite he is going to think we have all gotten used to it. For him to be able to listen he needs to know how we feel.

[Atalante]

I really, really, really strongly dislike this. I won't say I hate it, because if I did I would simply stop playing (hate is a very strong word).

While I really hope TJ will change it back since there are clearly a lot of people unhappy with this change, it's not something that will make me want to leave the game if it stays. I'll just be a sadface for a while and get over it with time.

It will, however, make me think twice the next time I want to do something like this http://dragcave.net/lineage/PSypZ

I'm so sad with how it looks now, it completely ruins the look of checkers ):

 

ETA: Oh and this http://dragcave.net/lineage/RDfhP Which was made with the help of a few awesome people here on the forums that gifted me lovely 2nd gens to help me build up a mate for Ragnarok Von Rosenberg, which was an AP find. And now I feel devastated looking at it...

Edited July 8, 2013 by becrux

[Amazon_warrior]

While I certainly dislike the changes.... they haven't been in effect for that long. And I know there is an interest in balancing the look of lineages on the small screens of mobiles and different tablets vs computers.

Then make it a feature of the mobile site and not the desktop site! Heck, if I were playing on my Galaxy Tab I might be grateful for it (probably not, but anyway). But inflicting this on every player regardless of what they're using is ridiculous. And will only seem *more* ridiculous when I start using my big desktop with my 24" monitor. :/

[BlueEyesWhiteDragon]

I don't like the new format. I really wished that viewing them in how they are now would be optional, but apparently it's not. I don't even like the adjustment to the spiral/stairstep lineages which makes the lower gen dragons look smaller compared with the highest gen dragons.

[missy_]

While I certainly dislike the changes.... they haven't been in effect for that long. And I know there is an interest in balancing the look of lineages on the small screens of mobiles and different tablets vs computers.

I am on a mobile device -- a tablet -- and it is DREADFUL. So if that is why this was done, trust me, it did NOT do anyone using a mobile device any favors!

 

The first generation of an even gen lineage is miniscule in comparison with the desktop version.

 

Look at this rainbow lineage. What is the point when anyone on a mobile device can hardly see what the dragons are in the first gen?

 

 

[Iside]

I really really hope this kind of view will be optional, if it must stay.

 

I just looked at an EG lineage I'm working on

http://dragcave.net/lineage/Gg6lX

 

I paid much attention to follow a precise pattern for the CB gen, and now you hardly see something is whiter that something else

[Fuzzbucket]

I can't imagine voluntarily playing on a mobile device of any kind - whatever you get will be too small...

 

On a PC that rainbow looks LOVELY

 

I have zoomed out as far as I can - and while I can't see names, the rainbow is clearly visible.

 

ETA wow - off topic, but look at her CHILD !

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/uqqLu

[Amazon_warrior]

I can't imagine voluntarily playing on a mobile device of any kind - whatever you get will be too small...

 

On a PC that rainbow looks LOVELY

 

I have zoomed out as far as I can - and while I can't see names, the rainbow is clearly visible.

 

ETA wow - off topic, but look at her CHILD !

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/uqqLu

Until the recent changes, I was exceedingly proud of that lineage. Now.... ugh. :/

 

Oh, and how do you find this, then? Because I think it's even worse.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Amazon_warrior

[Fuzzbucket]

I wonder if it makes a difference that I have a wide screen monitor....

 

It looks lovely from where I'm sitting ! Truly !

[Sycamore]

While I can see the sense in this and know from past experience that TJ does indeed listen I also feel that he needs to know that for many of us this isn't the usual automatic "it's horrible change it back" reaction...

Exactly this. I still don't understand why people were taking such a negative view of the AP changes. They increased the number and variety of eggs that appeared in the AP, gave options to those only hunting for rarer eggs, etc., etc., etc. The only downside of the change was a slightly less predictable/consistent AP, but apparently that was A Serious Issue.

 

The lineage view change has the opposite problem. It only poorly 'fixes' the vertical length of big lineages, and the negative side-effects are huge:

• Every even gen where the point of the lineage was symmetry is now forced into an asymmetrical template.
• Some lineages are being singled out.
• The minuscule sprites trivialize the contributions of every Dragon Cave artist.
• Projects that have taken loyal players months, or even years, to build have been significantly altered, and they have no options to address that change no matter how much they hate it.

On top of everything else, the peppy monthly release announcement fast on the heels of several days without any response to concerns about the lineage view change is kind of salt in the wound...

 

[missy_]

Then make it a feature of the mobile site and not the desktop site!  Heck, if I were playing on my Galaxy Tab I might be grateful for it (probably not, but anyway).  

 

(I know you said "might" ... just thought I would clarify.)

 

No -- we are NOT grateful ...

 

It is especially tiny on our mobile devices, even SMALLER than what you see on your desktops. :/ (Which is bad enough, I know. :-p )

 

The mobile interface is absolutely horrid.   

 

I can't imagine voluntarily playing on a mobile device of any kind - whatever you get will be too small...

 

The iPad mobile interface was beautiful and streamlined before this awful change.

 

A Retina display iPad with a resolution of 2048 x 1536 pixels has better resolution than either an 11" or 13" MacBook Air and better resolution than the 13" or 15" MacBook Pro. See here.

 

I had no complaints.

 

It was not too small. But it is now.

 

If I cannot see it on a Retina display iPad, it is too small!