ANSWERED:Give Concept Creators Credit In-Site

[Dragon Mage]

On a different issue, what if the original OP becomes inactive and the concept thread is deleted due to inactivity, and say, the spriter who had been helping with the thread restarts the concept on their own? Should the original OP still get credit for something like that or would the concept credit move to the reviver?

 

I'd be in favor of the latter. I know of several concepts where this has happened, including one I completed on my own. At this point, the concept is in the hands of the spriter and they have the new freedom to do what they like with it.

 

A good question, and I agree with you. Perhaps, if the ideas are close enough, there should be a 'tip of the hat' to the source of inspiration, if you will.

 

Another possible solution is, instead of a loooong list of credits, a 'Special Thanks' line could be added as well -- that way, people that contributed in a significant, but minor way could be mentioned as well. Or, as you said PS, if the artist renovated an abandoned concept. Just an idea, but it could be workable.

 

I may be biased though because I'm involved in 2 concepts (Perfume and Muse dragons) that haven't seen their OP's in some time, but I do my best to keep them running and I work on the redlines when I have time off from college. One of the OP's even designated me as thread 'moderator' so my contribution to the thread is not small, but even so, I would be completely unrecognized should (god willing) the concepts ever make the Cave. Appearing in a 'Special Thanks' would make it all worthwhile, though.

[TVTD]

Hmm, speaking of eggs... provided they're more than a simple hue shift on an already completed egg, perhaps they should get credit too? There are some really lovely eggs out there.

Meh, maybe. But if some people get it but not others, there's going to be some drama.

[Daypaw]

YES, please! I'd love to know who these concepts belong to, not just who put the pixels together D:

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I may be biased though because I'm involved in 2 concepts (Perfume and Muse dragons) that haven't seen their OP's in some time, but I do my best to keep them running and I work on the redlines when I have time off from college. One of the OP's even designated me as thread 'moderator' so my contribution to the thread is not small, but even so, I would be completely unrecognized should (god willing) the concepts ever make the Cave. Appearing in a 'Special Thanks' would make it all worthwhile, though.

If you do redlines, you get sprite credit.

At any rate, if a thread is revived by a new user, I'd support them getting the credit for it.

 

Meh, maybe. But if some people get it but not others, there's going to be some drama.

 

I just don't think people who simply shift the hues should get credit. I can do that in literally less then a minute on SAI without a shard of creative thought. That, to me, isn't something that warrants credit. The only ones that SHOULD get credit are people who do something, anything, special with the egg--dots, markings, patterns, stuff around the egg, anything at all of that sort. But just a plain hue shift isn't original work, it's just a recolor, and one that any art program can do without effort.

[Completely Different]

What do you mean by difficult to look over? o3o? Confused about your wording.

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I think the general consensus was that the fact that so many people tend to be involved with writing descriptions, often with relatively minor changes (such as simple fixes of spelling or grammar), determining who "deserves" credit would be a lot harder than for art.

 

I mean, it might be possible, but I think there's a lot of potential for drama.

 

Edit: Oh, btw, I found a thread about whether there should be credits for eggs.

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=95742&hl=

Edited March 25, 2013 by Completely Different

[Walker]

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I think the general consensus was that the fact that so many people tend to be involved with writing descriptions, often with relatively minor changes (such as simple fixes of spelling or grammar), determining who "deserves" credit would be a lot harder than for art.

 

I mean, it might be possible, but I think there's a lot of potential for drama.

Minor changes are minor changes? Just like edits to a sprite. They don't get credit if you shrink a foot or something. Not that hard, actually. The original person who wrote the description counts as the conceptor. The person who replaces a few words, which could be counted as pixels does not :U

[Pixxelation]

This has already been suggested. The topic is called Courtesy Credit.

 

That aside, I give full support to the idea. I also believe conceptors of holiday dragons deserve an alt.

[Syphoneira]

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I think the general consensus was that the fact that so many people tend to be involved with writing descriptions, often with relatively minor changes (such as simple fixes of spelling or grammar), determining who "deserves" credit would be a lot harder than for art.

 

I mean, it might be possible, but I think there's a lot of potential for drama.

 

Edit: Oh, btw, I found a thread about whether there should be credits for eggs.

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=95742&hl=

 

 

Well, a lot of people are often involved in the entire creative process, but without the concept and the actual spriter(s), there would be no dragon of that type.

 

Not mentioning the conceptor strikes me as being rather like failing to take the father of a baby into account - he didn't do the work involved in building or bearing that baby, but without his input, the whole process would never have begun.

 

That name ought to be on the birth certificate and, assuming a normal, healthy relationship, he ought to have rights as a dad.

[~!~]

I think the real issue here is that you need special skills and talents to sketch or to sprite, whereas to come up with a dragon concept, all you need is creativity. I understand that it isn't something everybody has, but it's not a learned skill.

 

My point is, anyone who can sprite can come up with a dragon concept. Not everybody who can come up with a concept can sprite. We could make a rule that all creators have to make their own sprites, and we'd still have enough new dragons being made to have them released regularly.

[Completely Different]

 

Well, a lot of people are often involved in the entire creative process, but without the concept and the actual spriter(s), there would be no dragon of that type.

 

Not mentioning the conceptor strikes me as being rather like failing to take the father of a baby into account - he didn't do the work involved in building or bearing that baby, but without his input, the whole process would never have begun.

 

That name ought to be on the birth certificate and, assuming a normal, healthy relationship, he ought to have rights as a dad.

I'm....agreeing with you? I'm all for conceptor credit. Its description credit I'm a little iffy on, but I see Walker's points I'm rethinking my position. It could work.

 

(And, after all, I've both made concepts and written descriptions for others. I know how much work and care can go into them. I also may be a little bit biased. )

[Walker]

I think the real issue here is that you need special skills and talents to sketch or to sprite, whereas to come up with a dragon concept, all you need is creativity.  I understand that it isn't something everybody has, but it's not a learned skill.

 

My point is, anyone who can sprite can come up with a dragon concept.  Not everybody who can come up with a concept can sprite.  We could make a rule that all creators have to make their own sprites, and we'd still have enough new dragons being made to have them released regularly.

Anyone can make a concept. Anyone can try to sprite.

 

But same as spriting, drawing, etc. there are levels of quality to a concept. There's the ones that are "This is a ghost dragon. The end"

 

Then there is the one with deep thought and consideration. Not everyone has the time and patience to do that.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think the real issue here is that you need special skills and talents to sketch or to sprite, whereas to come up with a dragon concept, all you need is creativity. I understand that it isn't something everybody has, but it's not a learned skill.

 

My point is, anyone who can sprite can come up with a dragon concept. Not everybody who can come up with a concept can sprite. We could make a rule that all creators have to make their own sprites, and we'd still have enough new dragons being made to have them released regularly.

You can learn to develop creativity, just as you can learn to develop art. Not in the same ways, maybe, but you can certainly do workshops, read lots, etc etc to push it farther.

 

I've seen some really wonderful spriters who had concepts that were rather... boring. And then I've seen some people with great concept ideas that couldn't draw at all.

[~!~]

I've seen some really wonderful spriters who had concepts that were rather... boring.

I'd say a fair number of dragons currently in the cave fall into this category. I won't name any names, and I don't know which were spearheaded by the spriters themselves, but there are certainly plenty of dragons with quality art and lackluster concepts. Of course, it might also be that my standards for what makes a cool dragon and DC's standards are pretty different.

[Stromboli]

Ugh, yes please. I'd like to see the same for people who write the descriptions, too. <3

I dunno about how other folks feel, but I don't think the folks who write the descriptions necessarily need credit. There were a couple dragons that I popped in on literally the final phase, put a laundry list of descriptors into a paragraph of description, and that was all I did. Took all of five minutes. I don't think I ought to get any credit or claim on the concept just because I put a list into complete sentences.

 

But, y'know. I wouldn't mind getting credit on my concepts. The system would be a bit dodgier than with art credits, probably, but likely not unmanageably so.

[Zovesta]

Haha, yeah, I guess I'm used to other sites where descriptions are a much bigger creative process, so going "yes description credits plz" was automatic.

[Syphoneira]

 

Well, a lot of people are often involved in the entire creative process, but without the concept and the actual spriter(s), there would be no dragon of that type.

 

Not mentioning the conceptor strikes me as being rather like failing to take the father of a baby into account - he didn't do the work involved in building or bearing that baby, but without his input, the whole process would never have begun.

 

That name ought to be on the birth certificate and, assuming a normal, healthy relationship, he ought to have rights as a dad.

 

 

Re-posting this to emphasise a point.

 

... assuming a normal, healthy relationship, he ought to have rights as a dad...

 

 

The caring, careful father who nurtures the child deserves rights.

 

 

The one-night stand who fails to phone the next day does not deserve access or any rights to the child.

 

 

The person who simply states that 'this is a ghost dragon' and leaves is not a true conceptor because there was no concept of how that dragon developed or why, of what it is and how it lives - that would be a statement-maker.

 

Credit and an Alt would not be suitable for the statement-maker, as it would for someone who built an imaginary dragon with a feasible history and a life, for someone else to take it to a (virtually) more solid stage.

 

At a time when companies try to copyright pre-existing words, phrases and symbols, some might find the difference hard to distinguish, but where nothing has been created, no credit can be given in the manner that it can where it has.

 

How hard is it to tell the difference between a simple statement with little or no fleshing out of perhaps even a general nature, and the solid, artistic conception of an entire breed of creatures with believable lifestyles and characteristics within the context of a virtual world like DC?

 

When THAT is what the spriter forms into virtual flesh and life, THAT deserves, in my opinion, both credit and an Alt.

 

[Fiona]

As someone who has done all phases that are being talked about here, I tend to think conceptors should get credit, but I don't know that I agree that description writers ought to.

 

For me, the part that is the most work, in terms of hours spent coming up with a quality finished product, is the sprite itself. One will take me at the very least weeks to finish.

 

Coming up with a good concept isn't as hard, but does take some thought. Riding herd on a thread is not all that easy either. Plus, giving concept credit would make clear who the foremost authority on that breed of dragon is.

 

Writing descriptions? Takes me an hour, tops. The hardest part in writing descriptions for someone else's concept is understanding enough of the concept to come up with decent descriptions.

 

As for egg credits, yes, different thread. But even knowing how many hours I put into the GoN egg and the Shadow Walker egg I still say no.

 

 

---Oh, and I'm also rather opposed to spriter's alts for normal releases. I mean, why would we? That seems to me to be carrying the idea of spriter's alts to a ridiculous level. Alts for conceptors who come up with holiday dragons however, is different. By all means they should get alts as well as the sprite artists. A word of caution on that though. Since holiday sprites are done in secret, I can see a whole host of people thinking "I want a holiday alt. I'll just PM <insert artist's name here> and tell her/him/it about my idea. The if it gets used I'll get this cool alt." Maybe you do have a truly fantastic idea, but TJ gets a lot of submissions for each holiday. He can only pick one.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Fiona BlueFire

[whitebaron]

DC gives copyright where they are forced by law.

I always assumed this to be the only reason why there even are copyright notes for individual sprites.

 

Descriptions, concepts - they can't be copyrighted, not even trademarked.

 

 

Besides that legal issue, I believe that finding out who should be credited for ideas would be a tough, error-prone process that could lead to drama. Anyone who posted a critique/commemt actually WAS part of the creative process, giving all of them credit is way to much. Giving only the OP of a thread credit is the same probkem, just reversed - not everyone defines their concepts alone.

 

So while I appreciate the sentiment, I'm against giving credit on the dragons page.

 

=>

 

What I would want however is the creation threads to be linked from the dragons page, so you can see the whole process, the whole backstory, and everyone involved.

[Syphoneira]

Hi, whitebaron, I really don't think that copyright is at issue - we're discussing credit and an Alt of that person's creation given for the conceptor where an actual fully-fleshed, feasible concept has been created and developed.

 

An idea combined with research and thought/imagination is where many theoretical scientific and artistic discoveries appear, to be verified/created in later physical work - such discoveries deserve recognition.

[blueberryjr1]

Yes this is such a good idea angelicdragonpuppy!!!! As you angelicdragonpuppy know I'm suggesting a dragon for the first time and if it ever get release I would like to say "I came up with that idea!!!"

 

With the abandoned art (not sure if this has been stated before) but shouldn't there be something like this for a dragon who's art was originally abandoned:

 

Sprite Credits: Creator of Sprites

Concept Credits: OP

Original Art Credits: Creator of Original Art

Or something similar to that.

[LadyLyzar]

~ Topics Merged as this has been suggested before. ~

[moonstone981]

Just a huge bump because I really do support this, as the owner of now 3 dragon requests, 2 done and 1 WIP, I feel that we, and I am speaking for concept creators supporting this thread, should get credit for our thread, too.

[sheppardkid]

@ blueberryjr1- I agree with that little set-up. It makes sense to give the people who are the main participants in each step some credit.

 

I'm reminded of the crew for a movie. Every person is credited, even down to the assistants. Obviously, this site can't do something to that grand of a scale but the main creators/artists should get some well-deserved credit. I just don't think it in all fairness that the only people who get credit at this point are the spriters. Don't get me wrong. I think they DO deserve a descent amount of credit since they do quite a bit of the work. However, without those who sketch there couldn't be sprites and without the concept creator(s) there could be no sketches. *shrugs* That's just my two cents worth.

[Sasstrek]

Yes! I always thought about this whenever I see concepts, especially great concepts where the conceptor can't sprite. And I also worry about this when artists hold discussions about the completed dragons because quite often the original concept maker would have little to no say on this. The concept maker really should have more input and credibility I think. They're sort of like writers to movies and television. The spriters bring them to life but the idea started with the writers. They're the ones that know the idea inside out really.

 

I support this!

[626lavaheart]

I still support this (still)

 

Also I feel that any Idea that conceptors do nothing should be invalid @_@

(I've pretty much given up on artists... this part of the site is the reason as to why I now can draw well and can sprite a bit...)

 

The Only concept I see where the there's like Nothing at all in terms of info on the dragons these days are concepts whose creators are spriters. (I've seen them roll one out in a few weeks with no other input besides a few small critics)

 

but I'm just a lil mad that, at the very least, crediting the conceptor hasn't been implemented yet. seriously it shouldn't be hard to add more names to the credit lists coding wise (adding text is always the easiest thing to do) so if it's an issue on whether they did enough work.. it really shouldn't matter that they didn't do much. It's just how you give out credit. People who come up with the idea (even if it was an obvious idea that isn't very inventive) always get credit. (inventors, writers, directors... )