Remote Biomes

[olympe]

So, a requirement based on raising x dragons that can drop in that biome, regardless of whether they were actually picked up in that biome is simple. The code easily knows what breeds drop in that biome.

 

A requirement based on how long a scroll has been in existence is simple. Join dates are part of the data anyway.

 

Those two criteria cover every other scenario and proposed requirement. They're simple, easy to understand.

 

If you make some sort of quest fulfillment the requirement to access the biomes, look at how much more data the code will have to gather and maintain. First off, it will have to determine what constitutes a valid point earned. Every action by every player would have to be weighed against possible points. Second, it will have to keep track of those points, per remote biome. Then it will have to check against the number of quest points needed to see if access is granted. For every player. At every action. Even if it can be coded in a way that it stops checking for a player once all the remote biomes for that player are accessed, you still have a lot of data being tracked.

I think you see it needlessly complicated. Keeping track of how many dragons of breeds A, B, ... and Z (that drop in biome 1) a player has is the same whether it's done for a quest with points assigned or for the simple unlocking mechanism. The same would be true for the number of breeds a player has collected. The only issue here might be the number of visits a player pays to every biome - but that would work similar to the stats our dragons get. (Only that it counts clicks you do, not clicks your dragons get.) Plus, it would stop counting at 250 for each biome and player. Compared to the number of clicks, unique views and views we players as a whole gather every single day, this is a drop in the bucket, if not in the ocean.

 

And what do you do with the idea that there is another layer behind the first layer of remote biomes?

Exactly what it implies. Let's take coast, for example. A remote biome for coast might be ocean or deep sea, correct? Because, if you start at the coast and go swimming or diving, you'll reach an area of water where there's no land in sight. This would be the first hidden biome for coast.

 

Now, as you explore the vast ocean, you come across a number of small islands with new and strange breeds. Maybe it's pygmyland (due to island dwarfism), maybe there are totally different dragons from any other place (like reef-dwelling breeds or whatever TJ can come up with). In any case, this would be remote_coast_2 - or remote_ocean. In order to find this, you'd need to fulfill a quest (or whatever) in the ocean, as you had to fulfill a quest (or whatever) in order to unlock the ocean in the first place.

Edited May 7, 2013 by olympe

[Fiona]

I think in fact that you are missing my point. DC is, at it's heart, a simple game. It not only allows for a great deal of emergent game play, it actively encourages it. What you are suggesting imposes a structure on the game that I don't believe the game engine benefits from. Instead of allowing the greatest flexibility in how each player chooses to play you set defined goals. That is the very antithesis of emergent gameplay.

 

 

And no, I don't think I'm seeing it needlessly as something complicated. What you have proposed is much more complicated than what I suggested. I do have an idea of coding structure, even if I'm not a coder myself. You're saying, "Oh, it's easy to track this while we're already tracking that." but every single added number you must track, multiplied by the number of users/hits/anything adds complication and drain on the server. Right now DC isn't tracking clicks on a biome per player. Now imagine how many clicks on each biome register to the server each second. Suddenly you're asking the server to track that, to record which IP each of those clicks belongs to, and to remember how many cumulative each IP has stored up. For every player. In addition to having to calculate what to do with each of those clicks in the normal matter.

 

So, let me ask you this: if TJ had the choice between simple, easy to understand "This many dragons that can drop in this biome" or "x months old scroll", and the quest system you are suggesting, which do you think he's more apt to choose?

Edited May 7, 2013 by Fiona BlueFire

[Fuzzbucket]

I do think this is getting HORRIBLY complicated and something I might not even be bothered to follow up.... I play this game for its simplicity...

[RainDear]

I agree with Fuzz. This seems much more complicated than I am comfortable with. I have pretty much all the dragons presently available that I want for my scroll and only actively collect new releases or breed on demand. This sounds like I will have to change my game play in order to access new biomes, which is something I don't want to do, and it seems so complicated that I won't even know how to do so if I want to.

[Blear]

Just about the section that makes it impossible to go back to old biomes, I'd rather this weren't introduced until the cave has its own trading page, I'm past bronze already and I don't like the idea of dragons being introduced that I will NEVER be able to go and catch, especially without reliable trading.

[kerrikins]

Olympe, I really like your idea but I am not entirely sure that it suits DC. :/ I also think that an overall simple 'this many breeds' suits the *tone* of DC more, which is kind of along the lines of 'gotta catch them all', etc. Collecting and then unlocking makes more sense. Like... once you have ____ from _____ then you could be considered an expert and can go further afield would make more sense to me.

[Fiona]

raindeer and fuzz. That is in a nutshell why I am opposed to olympe's quest system.

 

What I have suggested counts what you already have. So if you need 15 (or 10) dragons from the alpine to access the remote biome, and you already have 15 that you own, you're in.

 

What I have suggested doesn't care which breeds you have, as long as the total adds up.

 

The time option is something I endorsed simply because it allows those with extremely specific collecting styles to still have access to all the remote biomes. Is your scroll older than 6 months? (for example) Even if the only dragon breed you collect is stones, you still have access to all the remote biomes. It's a "whichever goal you meet you're in" requirement, not both.

 

The only system I could think of that is less complicated than "collect x dragons from #biome" is that you instantly have access when you reach "Y" trophy level. I don't like that as well because 50 is more than 15. Or 10. So some would be waiting longer. And 50 would be the minimum if based on trophy levels.

 

The arguments for and against the different ideas sound complicated, I agree. Everyone has their own ideas they like. And trying to explain their ideas makes everything sound complicated here.

[olympe]

What I have suggested doesn't care which breeds you have, as long as the total adds up.

The problem is to find a balance between different styles to play DC.

 

First of all, we have the hoarders. People who raise as many dragons as they can, often of all (or almost all) breeds available. I know I fall into that category, and there are only 2 (common) breeds that haven't made it onto my scroll yet. We could pretty much beat any requirement that isn't too hard to meet the moment it was set, and we don't really care all that much what kind of requirement is set to unlock new biomes. We wouldn't even be bothered all that much to have to start anew, as far as these requirements count, because collecting dragons is something we do anyway.

 

Second, we have people with set scroll goals. Many only collect X amount of every breed, usually one or several sets of adults and one set of frozen hatchlings (S1, male, female). These people will care a great deal what kind of requirements they'd have to meet, as they don't want to clutter their scrolls needlessly. For these players, requirements along the lines of "raise/freeze at least one specimen of X breeds from the biome" is the ideal requirement, as that's what they do anyway. Many of them might even be happy with "raise X dragons from that biome", as long as the number doesn't exceed the number of breeds there multiplied by the number of dragons they collect of each breed.

 

Third, we have breeders. For the purposes of this suggestion, they can be lumped in with hoarders, as the status of an egg (bred or CB) does not matter for unlocking biomes.

 

Fourth, we have people who only collect very few breeds, but amass true armies of them. For these players, requirements taking the overall number of dragons on their scrolls into account are ideal, as they often have large armies of dragons, only the number of breeds on their scrolls is sorely limited.

 

Fifth, there are those players who registered years ago, maybe caught and raised a dragon or two or four and then vanished. For them, it would be ideal if merely the duration of their membership here is taken into account, as that's all they really did here. Get registered. Personally, I think that these people should not get rewarded for basically doing nothing - but I might be in the minority here.

 

So, we have to take three vastly different play styles into account. Their status can be measured either in the number of dragons on their scroll or the number of breeds, as far as I can tell. Time of membership isn't exactly the best way to go about it, unless actual activity can be accounted for in one way or another.

 

 

Another question that might be relevant is how remote biomes should be implemented. Should they be accessible as new biomes (maybe through a link on the basic biome they're associated with), or should a new biome be only appear in the form of a second row of eggs? For example, you have met the requirements to access remote_jungle. Now, would you have to move to a new biome that's called remote_jungle (insert witty/fitting name here) or would you prefer to simply see a second row of eggs that only contains breeds that would (in theory) belong to remote_jungle?

[Pokemonfan13]

I think the fourth category won't have a problem as long as "x number of dragons from this biome" is an unlocking mechanism, since even if they only like ONE dragon from the coast they can still unlock remote coast if they collect enough of them.

 

 

As to time, if it's at all possible it would be best if it wasn't a simple "join date" unlocking, but would take activity into account. But since it is rather unlikely that the site has been tracking things like account activity over time, an activity based time unlock would have to be something that starts from the day the biomes are released, unlike most other unlocking mechanisms that can count dragons you've already gotten.

 

So, sadly, it's likely that the "collected 3 dragons then vanished" type accounts would have to unlock it, since it would be rather unfair to not have time unlock count total account age while counting dragons already collected.

 

 

And I do think time unlock is extremely important. It's the only way to let in people who have collecting styles that don't get them lots of dragons and aren't willing to change that long enough to unlock the biomes.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[Fiona]

The question is, why does it matter what a person's play style is if they can have access?

 

Hoarders. Instant access (unless they're really really new) So what?

Collectors. Instant access (again, unless they're really really new) So what?

Breeders. Instant access (again, unless they're really really new) Again, so what?

People who only collect a few breeds but collect huge amounts. Instant access. So what?

People who were here, then gone, then came back. Instant access, because of the age of their scroll. So what?

 

If the purpose of remote biomes is to add a new place for people to hunt, and to add more breeds from the bloated Completed List into the game, while not overwhelming the newest players, who have enough to do to get started, then why do we need to worry about covering play styles with a bunch of different requirements when a very simple <this> or <that> covers all of it anyway?

 

If most people get instant access, what's the problem? It's even handed, so it's fair. It excludes no one based on play style, and it's simple. Your complex quest system can't be set up to exclude people either, we certainly don't want people to have to start from scratch to gain access if it's going to take months.

 

So why do you even worry about different play styles when it all comes down to they get what they want without having to alter their play style? When the method of access is kept simple, it doesn't matter what their play style is. You don't have to account for it if it doesn't matter.

 

 

As for how the remote biomes are accessed, I think the best method would be a link in the associated biome. If all you do is add a row of eggs you leave off all of the lore attached. Plus, it clutters that page.

 

___ ETA:

And if everyone has to start from scratch, I've estimated with the simple x dragons from a biome to unlock, that people would be able to start unlocking remote biomes in a minimum of 6 hours if frozen hatchlings count, as long as the supply of incuhatchable eggs holds out.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Fiona BlueFire

[olympe]

People who were here, then gone, then came back. Instant access, because of the age of their scroll. So what?

But should they? In the older discussion, there were several people stating that this is the one group that shouldn't get instant access. And I have to agree with them. Being rewarded for not doing anything doesn't sit well with me.

[Fiona]

I'll confess that if I saw a simple way to exclude them I'd agree. However, I sincerely doubt if any attempt has been made to monitor activity up to this point.

[Slaskia]

That's why I would prefer just basing access by trophy level, namely, at least a bronze trophy. Just about all playstyles will reach that in a reasonable time and it's a nice simple goal that many players would be aiming for anyway since it increases egg/hatchling slots.

 

Only ones it would exclude are those that essentially just registered and left. TBH though, most of those players are not likely going to be coming back anyway as it seems they didn't enjoy the game.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Slaskia

[Amazon_warrior]

I'll confess that if I saw a simple way to exclude them I'd agree. However, I sincerely doubt if any attempt has been made to monitor activity up to this point.

No names (i.e., inactive for at least two months) + no trophy = no extended biomes?

[siliconrose]

I'll confess that if I saw a simple way to exclude them I'd agree. However, I sincerely doubt if any attempt has been made to monitor activity up to this point.

All the laid on and stolen on dates are right there for adult dragons. Couldn't successfully raised dragons be used as a proxy for activity?

 

TJ could even do the calculations offline.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Maybe there could be one final step past the other requirements...

 

As in, if you have met all requirements to access the remote biomes, you have to PM TJ or a Mod and ASK for access?

[Fiona]

And do what with that though? Calculate the most recently raised dragon? The difference between start date and most recent?

 

Cinnamon - not a fan of that. Perhaps an activation link would work though? Though really, I think instant would be better.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Fiona BlueFire

[olympe]

I'll confess that if I saw a simple way to exclude them I'd agree. However, I sincerely doubt if any attempt has been made to monitor activity up to this point.

Well, we do have action logs, and they're probably much longer than what we get displayed on site.

 

I also think that bronze (as a default setting for minimum activity) would be a little bit low. Even if you only collected one of each adult sprite, you could reach about 170 dragons/dinos/chickens, not counting holidays (if my count is correct). That's very close to silver trophy already.

[Fiona]

I don't happen to think bronze is low at all. If the purpose for having a requirement is only to keep the newest people out, what's the problem with bronze?

[Amazon_warrior]

I don't happen to think bronze is low at all. If the purpose for having a requirement is only to keep the newest people out, what's the problem with bronze?

I tend to agree.

[Slaskia]

Even if you only collected one of each adult sprite, you could reach about 170 dragons/dinos/chickens, not counting holidays (if my count is correct). That's very close to silver trophy already.

155, that's including all 'catchables'/hybrids/breed only alts, if going by just one of each adult sprite.

 

Prizes/NDs/Holidays/GoN not included.

 

Edit: forgot to include chickens.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Slaskia

[Pokemonfan13]

If people are really upset about people who made an account, raised 3 dragons, left for 3 years, then came back having instant access, I think it would be workable to replace the time unlocking with a simple bronze trophy unlocks. Any play style that won't get you to a bronze is practically not playing. All it would require is that the raising requirements for the other unlocking methods have fewer dragons raised total than it would take to reach bronze status.

 

But I personally don't see why it's a big deal if old accounts get instant access. Yea, it's not fair, but it's not the end of the world either.

 

Although the thing about the dragons' dates might be workable.

[Completely Different]

Really, though, I wonder, how many people who leave for three years and come back wouldn't already have a fairly well developed scroll? I figure if its the type of thing where you did just collect 5 dragons you'd be unlikely to remember your username/password and would just end up making a new account. Not exactly a large number.

[Pokemonfan13]

I don't know, I've seen a few recently that only have bronze trophy max but also have frills.

[siliconrose]

And do what with that though? Calculate the most recently raised dragon? The difference between start date and most recent?

Count the number of months where at least X (where X >= 1) dragons were raised to adulthood? Or you could reduce the granularity to weeks.

 

That's a proxy for activity.