Remote Biomes

[Fuzzbucket]

I am going to say this. If it is impossible to include what was raised before the biomes were added [which I will argue forever is unfair], at least don't force the eggs to be CB. I can deal if I can breed them from my own stock. But forcing people to trade for dragons they already have and don't want more of is the worst. [and yes, it is forcing people to trade. Not everyone can catch CB blacks, or have the patience to wait around for the one egg they're looking for to pop up]

I couldn't agree more on this one. I am 68 and my reflexes are - not what they were... and my internet is not great either. Not like some, but not superfast and never will be.

[girlgamerjen]

People are raising FAR MORE commons than rares - that is the way of the game. Rares are - rare ! they aren't THERE to be raised in anywhere near the same numbers.

 

I love the way the AP is now.

Honestly - me too. Theres gems. The only thing i dislike is when you KNOW you or a friend dropped something and you cant lurk to try to grab it, since it takes a few days.

[Dinora]

To be honest, I don't understand the problem with newer players not being able to grab the eggs from a potential new biome right away. I thought it was about keeping older player, who achieved their scroll goals, busy? When you are new to DC you will need lots of time to just collect what you like out of all the dragons that already exist, I'd say. Thinking back, I would have probably seen a "2nd level" behind the first biomes as a stimulation to keep playing, so one day I could collect those dragons, too.

And I like the idea of different ways to get access to new biomes, so playstyles would not be affected much.

 

I would suggest that dragons from a new biome could not be traded to people without access, though, otherwise it wouldn't do any good to the trading market, I guess.

This way it would just be something like a new level to keep things interesting after playing a certain while or collecting a certain number of dragons (once again, I think there should be various options to gain access and it should not take too long).

[Reidragon]

You mean like hybrids? Or breeding in general? Or influence? Or Incubate? Or Summon? Or Teleport? Or Bite? Or Fertility? Or Trophies? Or Expunge? Or Splash?

 

Sounds like I should be shocked you are here at all o.O

Personally your comment sounds plain snotty and it offends me.

 

But no. Not like that. Guess what I don't have to collect those dragons if I don't want to and it doesn't really effect my gameplay any. I can still hatch and collect what I want. I don't have to use influence or incubate if I don't want to. If I happen to like a dragon and it has a BSA great! I'll have the BSA. If i don't like the dragon. Oh well I don't really NEED the BSA to collect those sprites I do like.

 

I'm talking about dictating you must collect 50 horses to have access to this special biome with all this awesome stuff or lawl, lawl, lawl, sorry for you!

 

Yeah what if I hate horses? I have to collect 50 of them to enter a biome with a dragon I want in it? Sounds like force to me.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Reidragon

[Dinora]

Reidragon:

 

But what if you have the choice if you want to collect 50 horses OR 20 different Sprites OR hunt (=just enter) a Biome for a certain number of times OR being an active player for a year OR... (and so on, examples are just examples ^^).

I think this would be rather fair, because you WOULD have the choice and could finally get to these new biomes just by clicking the "Jungle" button now and then, for example. ^^

[DarkEternity]

I would really rather have suggestions other than x number of dragons if possible, because doubling up on the trophies (which already expand egg slots) lacks creativity.

[Reidragon]

Reidragon:

 

But what if you have the choice if you want to collect 50 horses OR 20 different Sprites OR hunt (=just enter) a Biome for a certain number of times OR being an active player for a year OR... (and so on, examples are just examples ^^).

I think this would be rather fair, because you WOULD have the choice and could finally get to these new biomes just by clicking the "Jungle" button now and then, for example. ^^

I still would have issue because I want 4 of every male and female and no others. If it was something like trophy level or like logging into a biome or whatever that would be different but I don't want it based on x number of dragons on your scroll = this biome. Or you must have one of every dino color to enter this one.

 

That's all I am saying. Make the requirements based on something that near every single scroll will one day be able to achieve. Not based on things that force collections of whatever. That's really my only issue with this.

 

Also I know most people want the majority of things on the completed list. But sad fact of the matter is that won't happen I wanted dovewings and Opera and Operetta's something AWFUL. But they were rejected by TJ. Fact is that a lot of those dragons sitting there now WILL get rejected for one reason or another ranging from, Enchanted something, to too many alts, to who knows what.

 

Not sure there is a call for something like this until we see what TJ does with the current list.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Reidragon

[Amazon_warrior]

It could add a bit of interest if it's trophy-based but random.

 

I.e., two biomes per level. You hit bronze, site rolls 2d6 and opens up two new biomes for you! Your friend also hits bronze but gets two different biomes, so you can agree to swap eggs if you want. At silver, it's 2d4, and at gold you get whichever two are left.

 

 

 

I see the "but what if people only collect one of each sprite!" comment a lot. And I think that's fine, if that's how they want to play. I'd imagine those people still have a bronze trophy at the very least, though, which could mean.... access to a whole bunch of new sprites in two more biomes. Which would logically hasten their progress towards gold level even if they only wanted one of each. Wouldn't it?

Edited May 3, 2013 by Amazon_warrior

[Vhale]

So if two people want to collect blunas, but hate teleport, waters, oranges and skywings want to trade, what do we do? Do we stop making hybrids because they don't want to be "forced" to collect a dragon they "might not want" And you are deliberately ignoring both Summon and hybrids there.

 

What about the people who want one of the 250 dragons that you want to axe off the completed list? Do you have any clue what a punch to the gut that is for an artist to consider? That after getting your art on the list, some one wants to go rip it down in a single day and say, haha! Jokes on you, we really hated this after all. Would you like to be the one to go speak to all those artists and give them that news?

 

I'll say it again, it's hypocritical to ask artists to wait 3-5 years to get their art in the cave then stamp our feet at having to wait a couple months.

 

@Amazon, I think Slaskia posted the numbers for current sprites and it's very close to the Gold Trophy. Sounded like we'll hit 500 sprites this year.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Vhale

[Dinora]

I still would have issue because I want 4 of every male and female and no others. If it was something like trophy level or like logging into a biome or whatever that would be different but I don't want it based on x number of dragons on your scroll = this biome.

That's exactly why someone (was it olympe?) came up with this idea that there are different ways to get there. Person A who loves to hoard Horses gets access to the new biome by collecting 50 Horses. Person B just wants 2 of every dragon breed and gets access because of having at least one Sprite of 70% of the breeds from the Coast biome. Person C has been seen hunting in the Jungle on the 90th day now (that's ~ 3 months, not really that much time), so that gets him the new biome.

Different ways would lead to the same goal.

[Amazon_warrior]

That's exactly why someone (was it olympe?) came up with this idea that there are different ways to get there. Person A who loves to hoard Horses gets access to the new biome by collecting 50 Horses. Person B just wants 2 of every dragon breed and gets access because of having at least one Sprite of 70% of the breeds from the Coast biome. Person C has been seen hunting in the Jungle on the 90th day now (that's ~ 3 months, not really that much time), so that gets him the new biome.

Different ways would lead to the same goal.

I think something about visiting/hunting the AP might be nice too, if that's the route that's chosen to go down...

[Slaskia]

So if two people want to collect blunas, but hate teleport, waters, oranges and skywings want to trade, what do we do?

 

Easy: hunt in the AP. Hybreds do get abandoned, after all.

 

I'll say it again, it's hypocritical to ask artists to wait 3-5 years to get their art in the cave then stamp our feet at having to wait a couple months.

 

I'm assuming you are referring to the 'everyone start at 0' bit, if not then you can ignore the following:

 

I'll say again: it is also very silly for a new area to be open sitting empty (user wise) and useless for X amount of time while everyone works on the entry requirements if there isn't some form of instant access for some.

 

Edited to add:

 

Reposting my calculations, this time including the last release.

 

I got curious and decided to do some counting (yes, I'm crazy).

 

There's an average of 4-5 sprites per breed (not counting eggs), some have more if they have alts (Stripes have the most with 20).  If a new person collects two adults and freezes a hatchling of at each stage (2 for gendered if there's dimorphism) of every breedable dragon that can be caught in cave (including bred-onlys like hybrids and some alts), the number of dragons they'll have by the time they finish would be about 399.

 

Throw in the unbreedables (Including NDs and Zombies and accounting for the fact you can only have two GoDs), that number goes up to 430.

 

Add Holidays (again accounting for the limits of 2 per scroll for Val and Christmas ones and including Hollies).  473

 

Now, if they got lucky enough to get one of each prize dragon variant....: 497

 

So, 3 short of the Gold trophy (covered by next release, easy).

 

On that note, if this was restricted by trophy level (gold trophy required in this case), it would be completely possible for someone with a strict 'one adult of each gender, 2-3 frozen hatchlings' scroll goal to achieve it...eventually.

 

Just thought I'd put that out there for those curious.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Slaskia

[Reidragon]

So if two people want to collect blunas, but hate teleport, waters, oranges and skywings want to trade, what do we do? Do we stop making hybrids because they don't want to be "forced" to collect a dragon they "might not want" And you are deliberately ignoring both Summon and hybrids there.

 

What about the people who want one of the 250 dragons that you want to axe off the completed list? Do you have any clue what a punch to the gut that is for an artist to consider? That after getting your art on the list, some one wants to go rip it down in a single day and say, haha! Jokes on you, we really hated this after all. Would you like to be the one to go speak to all those artists and give them that news?

 

I'll say it again, it's hypocritical to ask artists to wait 3-5 years to get their art in the cave then stamp our feet at having to wait a couple months.

 

@Amazon, I think Slaskia posted the numbers for current sprites and it's very close to the Gold Trophy. Sounded like we'll hit 500 sprites this year.

Look for it in the Ap

 

-blinks- Whoa there Vhale I don't want to axe anything off the completed list! LOL Not at all. I am hoping most of them stay but TJ and TJ only gets to say what stays and what doesn't. Who knows what will happen with that list? He and he only gets say.

What you are accusing me of I never said. At all. You are just confusing me with that. I love the majority of things on the list. I said NOTHING about axing them. Just that most of them prob will get the axe through TJ because he decides what he likes and doesn't and what will go on the site or not.

 

I never said this idea is bad? I like it. I even support it.

 

I just don't like the portion where the users must collect this ammount of X! to get to the biomes.

 

I like Olympe's suggestion slightly better yes but I still don't want to be told I must have this on my scroll or no biome for me!! I like the idea of seasonal ones or maybe even ones that just rotate month to month or you have to click on this biome x amount of times whether you pick anything up or not. But not ones that tell me I have to have this on my scroll or tough luck.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Reidragon

[Amazon_warrior]

...Also (I'm sure someone else said this already), both bred and CBs of a breed should count toward ANY goals. As it happens, I'm one of those people who likes to collect a set number of CBs of things, and once I have my full complement I don't collect more of that breed as CBs unless I choose to do a lineage with a very specific naming scheme or theme that can't be adapted from my usual CB breeding stock. My scroll goals and limits are flexible though (for example, the number of "base" CBs I wanted to collect has gradually risen from 4 adults to 16 adults and 3 hatchies as I've been playing longer) and I've chosen to have them that way because it's my way of maintaining my interest in the game - if I had a rigid policy of "this many and no more", I'd have quit a long time ago out of boredom. That's just me, though!

 

That said, I'd be kind of annoyed if I suddenly had to collect scads more CBs for something because all my bred ones didn't count. That sort of reasoning has stopped me joining common-raising projects in the past because the rules forbade counting self-bred commons, thus stopping me from choosing to raise the commons and also create a nice lineage at the same time.

[Teogony]

I personally like the idea . If there is a player who doesn't collect tons of dragons to get to the required number, then easy, trade the egg from somebody who has the biome open. Is not hard after all, or hunt the AP.

 

Many players have much free time and can spend hours hunting the AP or the biomes, but there are also many with no time. I collect Blacks, and to get a Black from the AP I must hunt hours. I couldn't get any new CB Blacks nether because of the wall full with commons. And if new breeds of dragons will be introduced only in this biomes, again it will be more nice to hunt something new. And the lineages you create with this dragons will be more valuable. Or just make new biomes where eggs change with every refresh. This way you can hunt the dragon you need.

 

You have no interest in the new biomes? Simple, don't work to get to them. Who loves hunting, will hunt. There all is fair. Who loves to hunt and collect will get more dragons to collect, who doesn't will not get those dragons. To get something exclusive you must work for it. Nothing will come free and easy. I'm sure most of you don't like the idea because you must start to hunt and collect and this will take time. Most of you don't like the idea because you will not have instant access to them, but others will.

 

For everybody to be happy, the max number of dragons you must have should be 1500 not 5000. Or players with 3/5 years activity should gain access no matter the number of dragons, but only the active scrolls. Solutions can be found

Edited May 4, 2013 by Teogony

[lightningsky]

i think this is a great idea; though the only thing i don't like is the suggestion of a remote biome containing cb hybrids. i feel as those that defeats the purpose of them being hybrids, as they should only be obtained from breeding. it just makes sense that way i think...

[shikaru]

Actually, no.

If you can catch rares reliably, you drop your blockers back to AP or dont pick them up at all, making it "someone else's problem".

So can anyone else? That has nothing to do with how many of each dragon you collect, but I see this is just going to go in circles regardless. I very highly doubt that the number of players who only choose to collect x number of each dragon or who only collect y types of dragons is large enough to create any more impact on the availability of rares than any other user.

 

Besides even if their choice in playstyle is "affecting others", that doesn't make it right to go and force a playstyle on everyone.

 

Regardless, if this idea goes through I'd like to see it not take forever to get to for newer players to get to the biomes. There's really no reason for it to.

Edited May 4, 2013 by shikaru

[Drakefyre]

I still think that only having Commons in the new biomes and unlocking them with, say, four months of active membership (active being getting on the site once a week) is the best way to do this.

[_Sin_]

Unless TJ tells us otherwise, I'll keep believing that Olympe's idea cannot go anywhere because of its complexity. And I'm not thinking of the algorithm only, think about the logging etc.

 

On another subject: reading this thread, I find very ironic that the people that suggest or agree with the hardest requirements think that they should have immediate access. Isn't that nice to create rules for others while ensuring that we will not need to comply because we choose as requirement something that we already achieved?

 

If you want to force people to collect a certain number of eggs, at least limit "collection" to new releases only. Otherwise words like "favoritism", "elitist" and "self-serving" will keep showing in this thread.

Edited May 4, 2013 by _Sin_

[angelicdragonpuppy]

On another subject: reading this thread, I find very ironic that the people that suggest or agree with the hardest requirements think that they should have immediate access. Isn't that nice to create rules for others while ensuring that we will not need to comply because we choose as requirement something that  we already achieved?

If we already achieved it, it means we already did the hard work. We did need to comply with what we're suggesting, we've just done it early. That hardly makes us lazy and entitled, any more than a person who's already worked for five days straight on a community project and then suggests someone else should do the same is lazy and entitled. You want the benefits we have, then you do the same work we did.

Edited May 4, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[_Sin_]

If we already achieved it, it means we already did the hard work. We did need to comply with what we're suggesting, we've just done it early. That hardly makes us lazy and entitled.

My point is that you choose as requirements for others something that you already achieved,. Why not something that everybody should achieve?

What do you think that would be the reaction if the people that collected those armies of metallics referenced earlier were to suggest that you need at least one CB Gold x new biome? They already achieved, right?

Edited May 4, 2013 by _Sin_

[angelicdragonpuppy]

My point is that you choose as requirements for others something that you already achieved,. Why not something that everybody should achieve?

...But it IS something that everybody should achieve. The only difference is, some people have already done it. And thus they should be rewarded for work done. That's the only fair way to do things.

 

Let's say, just for example, that you have to collect 300 dragons to get into the new biomes. If you don't grant that retroactively, then people who've already collected 300 dragons really have to collect 600 dragons, while newer players only need get 300. You'd be punishing older and/or more active players by making them do twice the work for the same reward. That's hardly fair.

 

I highly doubt the CB Gold from every biome suggestion you mentioned is a realistic example of the requirements that'd be put into place. It seems far more likely that it'll be amount of dragons collected, amount of biomes visited, time spent hunting, etc etc. Now, I've been here four years. I've put in the time doing all that basic stuff. But now I'd like to focus on making lineages and such rather than indiscriminately collecting masses of commons or hunting the caves. Making me redo all that work to get access while other people need only do it once? Not fair, mate. Forcing me to do twice the time is hardly equality. And unless you've some truly amazing suggestion for how to get into the biomes, EVERYTHING you suggest is going to be imposing twice the work on older/more active players if it refuses to let them in if they've already qualified. I'm not asking hard work of anyone (I like the multi-possible-access idea proposed, all of which I find fairly easy), but I AM asking they do the same work I did, and that I not be forced to do twice the work as they.

Edited May 4, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[_Sin_]

...But it IS something that everybody should achieve. The only difference is, some people have already done it. And thus they should be rewarded for work done. That's the only fair way to do things.

 

Let's say, just for example, that you have to collect 300 dragons to get into the new biomes. If you don't grant that retroactively, then people who've already collected 300 dragons really have to collect 600 dragons, while newer players only need get 300. You'd be punishing older and/or more active players by making them do twice the work for the same reward. That's hardly fair.

 

I highly doubt the CB Gold from every biome suggestion you mentioned is a realistic example of the requirements that'd be put into place. It seems far more likely that it'll be amount of dragons collected, amount of biomes visited, time spent hunting, etc etc. Now, I've been here four years. I've put in the time doing all that basic stuff. But now I'd like to focus on making lineages and such rather than collecting more commons or hunting the caves. Making me redo all that work to get access while other people need only do it once? Not fair, mate. Forcing me to do twice the time is hardly equality. And unless you've some truly amazing suggestion for how to get into the biomes, EVERYTHING you suggest is going to be imposing twice the work on older/more active players if it refuses to let them in if they've already qualified.

First of all, as I said earlier, different variables like times hunting etc. could create issues for the system. So should be something simple.

My problem is not that people already achieved. My problem is their choice of requirements sounds quite self-serving.

Well... if, for example, you limit the collection to a certain number of new releases in the existing biomes, everybody would start from the same point on time. That point eventually could be a couple of months before the new biomes open. Everybody will want new releases, no? And if not, why should they want to go to the new biomes?

Edited May 4, 2013 by _Sin_

[Spelunker]

My problem is not that people already achieved. My problem is their choice of requirements sounds quite self-serving.

Well... if, for example, you limit the collection to a certain number of new releases, everybody would start from the same point on time. That eventually could be before the biomes open.

Suggesting ideas is much better than cutting down the people who are trying to propose their take on it.

 

I don't like your idea, because it seems odd to me that newer breeds count and older ones don't. It simply doesn't make sense.

[Completely Different]

First of all, as I said earlier, different variables like times hunting etc. could create issues for the system. So should be something simple.

My problem is not that people already achieved. My problem is their choice of requirements sounds quite self-serving.

There are so many different options for how this could work, that it seems difficult to believe they're all made to be self-serving. In fact, many of them were made specifically to help others, since they're meant to keep it open to as many different play-styles as possible.

 

By default it will seem somewhat self-serving, because most of the people here have been on the Site for a while, and have a lot of dragons. The only way to get around that is to set the bar really high, or to make everyone start over at zero, which has its own host of problems.

 

Personally, I think between the seven or so different ways this could possibly be implemented that doesn't require a real change in play styles, and strike a balance to being not instantly attainable but not discouraging to new players.