Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[DarkEternity]

What exactly is 'privileged' about wanting to keep a lineage we worked for and collected. Are you really saying that we are 'feeling entitled' to expect to keep that lineage that we often pay multiple CB Metals for. Seriously?

I want to pay CB metals for EG deadlines. Have a problem with that? Honestly the longer this thread goes on, the more annoyed I get. Is the point of this thread to annoy me until you get an absolute negative on this suggestion?

 

Immortality is a fine suggestion. I'll immortalise my dragons straight away, if that appeases people.

 

The sooner this issue is fixed, the better. Otherwise, I'm going to get to the point where I can't see the victims and only the individuals who hate deadlines because they're 'not art'.

Edited June 2, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Dubious]

I want to pay CB metals for EG deadlines. Have a problem with that? Honestly the longer this thread goes on, the more annoyed I get. Is the point of this thread to annoy me until you get an absolute negative on this suggestion?

 

Immortality is a fine suggestion. I'll immortalise my dragons straight away, if that appeases people.

 

The sooner this issue is fixed, the better.

If you want to pay CB Metals for EG Deadlines no one is stopping you. I imagine you might have an inkling how others feel if you went one day to admire that lineage and found it ruined. Also this thread is not about you, it is about finding a solution to the problem.

 

Personally I do not feel that the 'optional immortality solution' is enough or particularily feasible or easy to implement. It is a very complicated thing and may end up causing more problems.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Dubious

[DarkEternity]

If you want to pay CB Metals for EG Deadlines no one is stopping you. I imagine you might have an inkling how others feel if you went one day to admire that lineage and found it ruined. This thread is not about you, it is about finding a solution to the problem.

 

Personally I do not feel that the 'optional immortality solution' is enough or particularily feasible or easy to implement. It is a very complicated thing and may end up causing more problems.

Tell me exactly how pinkgothic's solution does not fix your problems.

 

Personally, the research BSA is complicated enough to make my head spin.

[grammydragon]

As long as you make your deadlines and then start gifting / trading / whatever the offspring, rather than breeding your dragons and then killing them, the secrecy of what's behind your tombstones remains firmly intact.

 

How do you have offspring to trade as deadline if you have to kill the dragon

before breeding?

 

Perhaps I am just totally misunderstanding this whole issue?

 

[DarkEternity]

How do you have offspring to trade as deadline if you have to kill the dragon

before breeding? 

 

Perhaps I am just totally misunderstanding this whole issue?

That's why I'm confused about as well. It's incredibly convoluted.

I'd imagine that I have an inkling how I'd feel if I had a feature so convoluted that I couldn't figure out how it worked.

Edited June 2, 2013 by DarkEternity

[Dubious]

Tell me exactly how pinkgothic's solution does not fix your problems.

 

Personally, the research BSA is complicated enough to make my head spin.

Like I said above, it is a complicated possible solution that would be tricky too implement. It is unnecessarily complicated.

 

It will also segregate the community, with many not willing to trade unless the trader had that option turned on. Many not willing to turn it on because maybe in the future they don't want that dragon.

 

It creates a new issue where people are now complaining that it cannot be reversed...or that it can be/was reversed and the lineages ruined and it was all for nothing.

 

There is a limit on how many different options you can offer for different people, without it becoming a problem itself, because it creates more problems. The less complicated and convoluted the better.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Dubious

[DarkEternity]

Like I said above, it is a complicated possible solution that would be tricky too implement. It is unnecessarily complicated.

 

It will also segregate the community, with many not willing to trade unless the trader had that option turned on. Many not willing to turn it on because maybe in the future they don't want that dragon.

 

It creates a new issue where people are now complaining that it cannot be reversed...or that it was reversed and the lineages ruined.

For starters, we can begin by describing how the research BSA works in regard to me making deadlines without taking up an entire essay.

[Dubious]

For starters, we can begin by describing how the research BSA works in regard to me making deadlines without taking up an entire essay.

Umm actually...my solution was entirely different, I never said I support the BSA option, I don't think it will work too well.

 

It was....

 

Only display tombstones on the 'view' page of the dragon. Leaving the lineage with the dragon picture and therefore intact. With a possible option to alternate between tombstone or dragon view.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Dubious

[demonicvampiregirl]

To me personally it shouldn't matter. If the dragon is not on your scroll anymore it doesn't belong to you so why should you be able to control if said dragon lives purely because of the lineage? It should be up to the owner of the dragon.

[Wahya]

Personally I'd like something like this. I don't like not knowing the full lineage of dragons I'm trading for, and thus avoid deadlines. It would be nice if I could see them in some way.

 

And for number three, I think one BSA use to show the whole line would be great, but it might be considered a bit OP.

[DarkEternity]

Umm actually...my solution was entirely different, I never said I support the BSA option, I don't think it will work too well.

 

It was....

 

Only display tombstones on the 'view' page of the dragon. Leaving the lineage with the dragon picture and therefore intact. With a possible option to alternate between tombstone or dragon view.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of creating deadlines? It gets marks for being simple, though.

 

As for deadlines on the rare trading threads, I support a blanket ban, but like pinkgothic said, I believe, people get confused. It operates on the KISS principle.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

That's why I'm confused about as well. It's incredibly convoluted.

I'd imagine that I have an inkling how I'd feel if I had a feature so convoluted that I couldn't figure out how it worked.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most deadlines have an end goal of being much longer than 2nd gen, right? I don't think I've ever seen anyone kill a dragon just so they could have a 2nd gen deadline to trade--it always seems like people do deadlines so they can, say, get faux Tinsel x something checkers or the like. So I was imagining people would create the lineage to a certain point (3rd, 4th, 5th gen, whatever) all on their scroll, kill the first line to create the dead "CB" line, and then gift offspring from the higher, more "complete" generations. Feel free to correct me if I'm in error about this, though.

Edited June 2, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[injenn]

I appreciate what this is trying to do, but I'd rather keep deadlines around. Some of them are really cool and took a lot of planning to make. Most of them are higher gen, but not all of them.

 

On a side note, I got a really cool deadline gen 2 tinsel. I'm thinking of using it to make a longer deadline tinsel thing for fun. I would feel sad if someone went and ruined all my work.

[DarkEternity]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most deadlines have an end goal of being much longer than 2nd gen, right? I don't think I've ever seen anyone kill a dragon just so they could have a 2nd gen deadline to trade--it always seems like people do deadlines so they can, say, get faux Tinsel x something checkers or the like. So I was imagining people would create the lineage to a certain point (3rd, 4th, 5th gen, whatever) all on their scroll, kill the first line to create the dead "CB" line, and then gift offspring from the higher, more "complete" generations. Feel free to correct me if I'm in error about this, though.

Yes, as with most even gens, the longer the better. I think I'm beginning to understand the BSA. :^~^

 

It doesn't really matter when the dragons slated to be dead die, though, if that's what you're saying.

Edited June 3, 2013 by DarkEternity

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Yes, as with most even gens, the longer the better. I think I'm beginning to understand the BSA. :^~^

Good good ^^

 

And, thinking about it, 2nd gens are possible, too, in a couple of ways.

 

1) Breed, then immediately kill. The egg would be a deadline before it was ever traded/gifted/etc, so the person wouldn't have the option to restore it.

2) Breed, pass on to someone who knows that it'll be a deadline and wants it as such, and then kill. Research is hardly a mandatory thing; people who like it as a deadline, want it as a deadline, or whatever else will leave it that way.

 

Personally I'd be delighted if a nasty messy dragon on my scroll magically became a 5th gen deadline checker, and wouldn't seek to research the original lineage back. It's just when people start poking holes in lineages that I already consider perfect that I want the former thing back.

[cyradis4]

Ok, in simple terns, the research BSA:

 

1. You trade for a 3rd gen Shimmer, one without tombstones. and trade it's offspring.

- the 2nd gen owner kills the 2nd gen, turning your 3rd gen into a 2nd gen deadline

- you perform Research on your 3rd gen, and the lineage is "restored", but the dead 2nd gen has "dead" instead of it's name or a code. But the image is there, as are the names and IDs and pictures of it's still living ancestors

- In short, the dragon is restored to what you originally traded for.

- The people who have descendents of your researched dragon would have to research their dragons to restore the lineage

- For any eggs traded after you Research, the eggs will carry the researched lineage only

 

2. You trade for a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, with the deadlines already dead.

- you decide one day to peak behind the tombstones. However, you *can't* research it because the tombstones were there when you got it.

 

3. You traded for what will one day be a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, knowing it was going to be a deadline

- you don't run Research on it, because you want the deadline

 

4. You traded for what will one day be a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, that has 2 tombstones and 2 that will one day be tombstones and trade it's offspring

- you perform Research on it

- the two Tombstones that were there when you got it stay tombstones

- the two tombstones that were dragons when you got it turn back into dragons (in your view), and their lineage is restored

- The eggs traded before you researched the dragon stay the same as before you researched it (ie, showing 4 tombstones)

- The eggs traded after you researched it show 2 tombstones and 2 dead dragons

 

 

Make sense?

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited June 3, 2013 by cyradis4

[tjekan]

I think the bottom line is that it's really a bad idea to let one player change what's on another player's scroll without their permission.

 

Right now, a player can do this by killing a dragon that he's already traded you an offspring of. That's annoying from a gameplay perspective-- no one likes to feel cheated-- but it's also annoying from a game MECHANICS perspective. There's absolutely no logical reason on earth why somebody ELSE killing their dragon should cause things to be rewritten on MY scroll.

 

The simple answer is just to allow everyone to opt into rewriting their OWN scroll if a dragon in their lineage has died. That way everyone gets to make their own decision about how they want to record their own dragon's lineages. If they want to see tombstones with no ancestors for dead dragons, they can. If they want to see a normal family tree regardless of which ancestors have passed away, they can.

 

By making it an option in the settings page for any person who wants to to "remove dead dragons from lineages" (and therefore see tombstones,) EVERYONE can look at lineages the way they find most aesthetically pleasing, and NO ONE can force another person to view their own dragon's lineage in a way they consider ugly. Where's the downside?

[snave]

Ok, in simple terns, the research BSA:

 

1. You trade for a 3rd gen Shimmer, one without tombstones. and trade it's offspring.

- the 2nd gen owner kills the 2nd gen, turning your 3rd gen into a 2nd gen deadline

- you perform Research on your 3rd gen, and the lineage is "restored", but the dead 2nd gen has "dead" instead of it's name or a code. But the image is there, as are the names and IDs and pictures of it's still living ancestors

- In short, the dragon is restored to what you originally traded for.

- The people who have descendents of your researched dragon would have to research their dragons

- For any eggs traded after you Research, the eggs will carry the researched lineage only

 

2. You trade for a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, with the deadlines already dead.

- you decide one day to peak behind the tombstones. However, you *can't* research it because the tombstones were there when you got it.

 

3. You traded for what will one day be a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, knowing it was going to be a deadline

- you don't run Research on it, because you want the deadline

 

4. You traded for what will one day be a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, that has 2 tombstones and 2 that will one day be tombstones and trade it's offspring

- you perform Research on it

- the two Tombstones that were there when you got it stay tombstones

- the two tombstones that were dragons when you got it turn back into dragons (in your view), and their lineage is restored

- The eggs traded before you researched the dragon stay the same as before you researched it (ie, showing 4 tombstones)

- The eggs traded after you researched it show 2 tombstones and 2 dead dragons

 

 

Make sense?

 

Cheers!

C4.

OK, so I like that, with one addition.

 

For dragons that were dead before the change to the BSA, and have been affected by the current change to the way dead dragons are treated, they go back to losing their name and code and show (Deceased), instead of the name or code that they show now.

 

I would be happy with that.

[TCA]

By making it an option in the settings page for any person who wants to to "remove dead dragons from lineages" (and therefore see tombstones,) EVERYONE can look at lineages the way they find most aesthetically pleasing, and NO ONE can force another person to view their own dragon's lineage in a way they consider ugly. Where's the downside?

The downside is if you have someone who, like me, has deadlines and enjoys making them for personal use, but also like me, has large even-gens with dragons not on my scroll that they don't want holes poked in by killing. Why should I have to flip my settings back and forth just because I happen to like both kinds of lineage?

Edited June 3, 2013 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[cyradis4]

By making it an option in the settings page for any person who wants to to "remove dead dragons from lineages" (and therefore see tombstones,) EVERYONE can look at lineages the way they find most aesthetically pleasing, and NO ONE can force another person to view their own dragon's lineage in a way they consider ugly. Where's the downside?

If it's done on a dragon by dragon basis, nothing.

 

Having it scroll wide, however, means that I can pick to either view deadlines, or not view deadlines. Some deadlines are awesome and I'd like to see them. Others aren't, and I don't want to see them.

 

Or do you mean something else by re-write?

 

C4.

[tjekan]

The downside is if you have someone who, like me, has deadlines and enjoys making them for personal use, but also like me, has large even-gens with dragons not on my scroll that they don't want holes poked in by killing. Why should I have to flip my settings back and forth just because I happen to like both kinds of lineage?

Well, that downside already exists right now (we can't have both now,) but perhaps that would be an argument in favor of the more complicated Research BSA proposal.

 

It's still really, really bad form for the default situation to be that a player can use perfectly normal, legal game actions to mess up another person's scroll, though. As the recent viewbombings and other current events have shown, there are people who will take any opportunity to do exactly that... and this really isn't meant to be that kind of game. If I have a dragon's ancestry written down on my scroll, how could anybody change that without my permission unless they actually assaulted my castle and took the scroll???

 

Maybe there should be a BSA that would HIDE dead dragons in a particular dragon's lineage page on your own scroll, rather than one that would reveal it. I strongly feel that the default needs to be that nobody else can change what you've recorded on your own scroll but you.

Edited June 3, 2013 by tjekan

[cyradis4]

If I have a dragon's ancestry written down on my scroll, how could anybody change that without my permission unless they actually assaulted my castle and took the scroll???

I love that line!

 

Perhaps, instead of a "view one way or the other", have as a default, "do not show any changes to the lineage"?

 

So, if you traded for a deadline, it'd stay a deadline, but if you traded for a 3rd gen Tinsel, it'd stay a 3rd gen Tinsel? With the name changing to "dead" if it's killed?

 

Cheers!

C4.

[DarkEternity]

The explanations actually sound good and reasonable and should perhaps be integrated into the OP to prevent me kneejerking against the suggestions. (I'd remove the big notice about the editing and questions to make reading easy on people with short attention spans like me)

 

I'm trying not to generalise because broad generalisations are a sin of mine ^

Edited June 3, 2013 by DarkEternity

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'll add in Cyradis4's lovely explanation post and also their simpler "do not show any changes to the lineage" default option thing. Anything else?

[cyradis4]

Just the observation that if we work together, deadliners and lineagers, I'm sure we'll come up with a workable solution.

 

And I know there are instances my explanation doesn't cover, I wasn't trying to cover everything, just the major points. I'm a devotee of both Murphy and KISS. Or I try to be.

 

 

ETA:

And you might want to see if a MOD will clean all but the last half dozen pages or so.

 

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited June 3, 2013 by cyradis4