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angelicdragonpuppy

Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

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No disrespect to TJ, but while this works for folks who aren't particularly attached to linage and simply want to prove some matter of pedigree (e.g. the messy lost Dorkfaces), for hardcore lineage/deadline lovers, this seems to be an all-round negative.

 

Most of the vocal deadline lovers aren't looking to simply hide some untidy branches--they want to prune 'em and lose 'em. In "Hoarders" similes, this new measure is like throwing a rug over the pile of flattened cats rather than taking them to the dumpster.

 

And most of the vocal lineage lovers aren't looking to prove their dragons' family tree, but to preserve it visually. Again with the "Hoarders" comparison: it's not enough to know there are nice things buried in the pile if you lift that cat--it's about being able to see and enjoy them.

 

(And now, off to propose an Intervention BSA...)

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Has anybody else noticed that TJ has worked something out with deadlines? It should satisfy nearly everyone.

 

I would post a lineage link, but it's not my dragon, so I probably shouldn't. unsure.gif

 

It would seem that the dragon's lineage is cut off at the tombstone (in the lineage view), just as usual. But it keeps its code, and the tombstone is clickable. Clicking the tombstone takes you to the dead dragon's page, complete with parent links and progeny/children links. If you click the parents' links, you can see their lineages as usual.

So, there's a lineage break at the dead dragon, where you can't see the whole lineage at once, but if you dig, you can get an idea of what's hiding behind the tombstone now.

 

I'm curious to see reactions, as I haven't heard a peep on the forum about the change. Anybody care to discuss?

 

Shala

I would like to see an official word from TJ; that there hasn't been one yet suggests (I hope) that he isn't done. It would be a complex thing to code, so he may still be trying to find the ideal method.

 

That tombstone without the rest of the lineage showing doesn't work for me. It would still ruin the look of my even gen lineages.

 

Me no like - and me is a deadender.... It is also a pity in that the dead end I am (considering) creating may have it's *ahem* SPECIAL aspect removed by this... and believe me, NO-ONE here would care if everyone in the line died.

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Call me old fashioned, but I personally think deadlines are a cheat. People falsify the dragon's lineage so there is a better deal on trading by someone who probably doesn't realize it really isn't the actual gen it looks like, like newbies. And it also makes a person look like they have something special when really, they don't.

 

What work? How hard is it to simply kill a dragon? You wait a month for the dead egg to get off your scroll. Ok.

 

Ok, then you say, but I went to a lot of trouble to breed things just right so when I kill the dragons, it looks like a true line.....again, we get into the cheat aspect here.

 

I am glad to know that you can look "behind" the tombstone now, and see the real line. Everyone should know it, so no more newbies get shafted by giving something good for a supposed short line, then wondering why no one wants the offspring.

 

This is just my own opinion, and I am not saying anything against anyone. This is just the way it seems to me.

 

Back in 09, when it was apparently first discovered how to make them, and it came out what they really were, it was a disgrace to have one, no one would bid on it, knowing it was false. That's how it used to be.

Edited by Riverwillows

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Call me old fashioned, but I personally think deadlines are a cheat. People falsify the dragon's lineage so there is a better deal on trading by someone who probably doesn't realize it really isn't the actual gen it looks like, like newbies. And it also makes a person look like they have something special when really, they don't.

 

What work? How hard is it to simply kill a dragon? You wait a month for the dead egg to get off your scroll. Ok.

 

Ok, then you say, but I went to a lot of trouble to breed things just right so when I kill the dragons, it looks like a true line.....again, we get into the cheat aspect here.

 

I am glad to know that you can look "behind" the tombstone now, and see the real line. Everyone should know it, so no more newbies get shafted by giving something good for a supposed short line, then wondering why no one wants the offspring.

 

This is just my own opinion, and I am not saying anything against anyone. This is just the way it seems to me.

 

Back in 09, when it was apparently first discovered how to make them, and it came out what they really were, it was a disgrace to have one, no one would bid on it, knowing it was false. That's how it used to be.

I have NO interest in cheating ANYONE. I want to create one for its looks, and for other reasons, for myself. It would not be leaving my scroll unless someone ASKS for one from the line. Which I would give them for free.

 

I have been gifted several deadlines - one by a mod here do you recognise yourself??? xd.png - and every single person has said "If you like deadlines, would you like this ?" Not ONE has tried to pretend they were anything they weren't. I think this idea of creating them "to cheat when trading" is something of a canard. Maybe it happened years ago but...

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Many many older people here do see them that way. That's what they originally WERE created to do, and that aspect of it doesn't change.

 

It's just what a lot of people see when they see a deadline being offered as a "(x) gen" in trades. Or when someone presents their scroll has having a lot of low gens....and there are lots of deadlines. It just doesn't make the person look good to a lot of other people.

 

But, I guess, to each his own.

 

I am not saying it's a crime nor am I saying everyone who does it is a cheat. What I AM saying, is that lots people see them that way.

 

 

But, to be fair, people should be allowed to make their deadlines. BUT, people should be educated what deadlines really are, and be allowed to see beyond them if they wish. That way, it's fair to both sides.

 

Quote from WraithZephyr

But unless someone is outright trying to claim a dragon is a CB when it is not, I am not sure how a deadline could ever be construed as misrepresenting anything.

 

Actually, I AM seeing people in the trades claiming "3rd gen gold" and "2nd gen Silver" etc, and when I click, it's deadlines. So, yeah, it is being done at present.

Edited by Riverwillows

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Actually, I AM seeing people in the trades claiming "3rd gen gold" and "2nd gen Silver" etc, and when I click, it's deadlines. So, yeah, it is being done at present.

 

I see this happening, and I see at least one person posting numerous times

does not count the CB gen when they list what generation dragon they are

offering. So why aren't these people contacted by a mod and asked to

clean up their act instead of everyone's lineages being changed?

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If i trade my deadline i write "fake 2. gen..." not cheating on people.

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I see this happening, and I see at least one person posting numerous times

does not count the CB gen when they list what generation dragon they are

offering. So why aren't these people contacted by a mod and asked to

clean up their act instead of everyone's lineages being changed?

Probably a combination of the site policy of "a dragon is a dragon is a dragon, regardless of lineage" coupled with a "caveat emptor" mentality.

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I think that false advertising is far worse than the creation of deadlines at all, so I would like to see a crackdown on the people who try and advertise them that way. I don't think that everyone who uses deadlines should have them taken away based on this, though - some people make deadlines purely for themselves, who are we to take that away from them?

 

I don't mind so much the current deadlines that I see. They're still visually appealing and give people the information that they need. I am fully *against* the lineage view actually changing for everyone...

Edited by kerrikins

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It isn't the deadlines themselves that give me the creeps, I consider them a legit way to play the game.

 

It's using dragons with offspring that irks me... especially when the dragons are common or uncommon. With rares it's easier to check and understand WHY folk made a deadline out of it. But why make a deadline out of a common dragon when you can just go catch a caveborn, breed it, kill it, and keep it all on the same scroll... rather than spreading them thru the general population.

 

I'm beginning to think that there is NOT a solution to this issue. Either way, one side or the other is going to be disappointed. I wish deadlines had never been invented.. I remember when 'killing' dragons was discouraged.. back when we had the kill 10 and your scroll gets burned. It wasn't until after that rule was rescinded that this problem started.

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Well since we have to kill if we want to get zombies, the ten kill limit quickly became pointless, however, I completely agree with killing dragons in such a way that only your scroll is affected.

 

I don't care for deadlines, but I do enjoy my murdering spree on Halloween. To that end though, I only kill what I breed or CBs because I do try to keep other people in mind. I've had a couple of pretty lineages screwed up by zombie attempts and that annoyed the snot out of me, so I would never do that to anyone else. Sadly, not everyone feels the same way so.. yeah, there will never be a solution that all can agree on.

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Well since we have to kill if we want to get zombies, the ten kill limit quickly became pointless, however, I completely agree with killing dragons in such a way that only your scroll is affected.

 

I don't care for deadlines, but I do enjoy my murdering spree on Halloween. To that end though, I only kill what I breed or CBs because I do try to keep other people in mind. I've had a couple of pretty lineages screwed up by zombie attempts and that annoyed the snot out of me, so I would never do that to anyone else. Sadly, not everyone feels the same way so.. yeah, there will never be a solution that all can agree on.

I collect CBs for zombling, myself. Or dragons I bred FROM CBs, in the hope of making a zombie linage (not doing well so far, but I have hopes....)

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I am starting to wonder if some people are even reading the past decent posts about Dead Lineages or just ignoring them....

 

And when I plan to put my Dead Lineages up for trading and giving, I will always advertise them as that. 3rd Gen Dead Lineage <Insert Egg Here>. Perhaps, maybe, if a mod catches someone putting up false lower gens and not saying they are Dead Lineages, they can edit the post? I see them edit posts when people link to the wrong viewing pages... Just like how they cut out non-rares or even gens if the people put them in the wrong thread...

 

Just a thought. But I know how busy they can be, so maybe that is a horrible suggestion. Sorry Mods. DX *hides*

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I see at least one person posting numerous times

does not count the CB gen when they list what generation dragon they are

offering.

I've seen that and often wondered if it were a cultural thing?

Kind of like how in some places the ground floor in a building is considered the 'first' floor and in other places the first floor is considered to be the one above the ground floor.

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I've seen that and often wondered if it were a cultural thing?

Kind of like how in some places the ground floor in a building is considered the 'first' floor and in other places the first floor is considered to be the one above the ground floor.

I'm sure that is part of it, as I have argued with a friend who just did not get it and refused to believe that a CB was first generation ! Actually I can sort of see her point, but still...

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Different games can be that way too. I have to think about it sometimes because of the differences between Dragon Cave and MagiStream. On DC caveborns are 1st gen.. on MS streamborns are Progenitors and their offspring are 1st gen, which is 2nd gen on DC.

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Adults can get confused so what chance for the younger ones?

We tend to forget that we can be talking with some quite young people on here.

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As a deadline maker, I'm not happy with the change to dead dragons in lineages. I'm fine with the data being kept, but showing the code in lineage view rather than (Deceased) bothers me. I haven't checked recently to see if that's still the case, but when I found out about it I stopped working on my deadlines-in-progress. I was working on an even gen Tinsel deadline, and I liked the uniform row of tombstones I was planning on. I'm not angry, I'll just work on other projects or collecting CBs, but I am disappointed to give up the lineage.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I personally think deadlines are a cheat. People falsify the dragon's lineage so there is a better deal on trading by someone who probably doesn't realize it really isn't the actual gen it looks like, like newbies. And it also makes a person look like they have something special when really, they don't.

 

What work? How hard is it to simply kill a dragon? You wait a month for the dead egg to get off your scroll. Ok.

 

Ok, then you say, but I went to a lot of trouble to breed things just right so when I kill the dragons, it looks like a true line.....again, we get into the cheat aspect here.

 

I am glad to know that you can look "behind" the tombstone now, and see the real line. Everyone should know it, so no more newbies get shafted by giving something good for a supposed short line, then wondering why no one wants the offspring.

 

This is just my own opinion, and I am not saying anything against anyone. This is just the way it seems to me.

 

Back in 09, when it was apparently first discovered how to make them, and it came out what they really were, it was a disgrace to have one, no one would bid on it, knowing it was false. That's how it used to be.

I'm pretty sure that what you mean is that it's wrong to try to pass off deadlines as low gens, and I completely agree with that. However, the way you said it implies that all deadline makers intend to do that, that making a deadline is cheating, and that deadlines have no value.

 

By saying "What work? How hard is it to simply kill a dragon?" you ignore all the work of breeding the lineage that must be done before killing the dragon(s). By saying "Ok, then you say, but I went to a lot of trouble to breed things just right so when I kill the dragons, it looks like a true line.....again, we get into the cheat aspect here" you call deadlines cheap knockoffs of "true" lineages, and call the people who make them cheaters.

 

While you meant to say that you do not like deadlines and that they have no value to you, your wording says that no one should like deadlines and that they have no value to anyone.

 

Basically, I think you didn't mean to be offensive. That's why I held off on saying anything at first. But what you said was hurtful to me, and I felt the need to say that.

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I believe that everyone has every right to play the game as they see fit (within the rules of course)......unless...

 

it is inferring with the way others play the game and others ability to play the game.

 

It is all very well for folks to shout about how stopping deadlines is stopping people playing the game the way they want to and imposing on their freedoms (as was the case in the aforementioned thread), until people (hopefully) stop to consider that actually deadlines ARE affecting the way other people play the game. Preventing those people from playing how they want to play. (ie collecting lineages)

 

Ruined lineages are not fun, it makes all the effort, work, frustration and joy put into obtaining a certain lineage...a complete and total waste of time. The fact that others can affect your scroll in this way is a big problem. Users often pay multiple CB Metals for good lineages and to have that ruined is extremely upsetting and understandably so. A dragons tradable worth drops dramatically to almost nothing if it's lineage is ruined in this way. Like it or not that is a fact.

 

I would put forward a suggestion that the tombstone only appears on the actual dragon 'view' page and that lineages display the dragon, not the tombstone.

 

Yes I understand that this will render deadline lineages obsolete, however, users 'freedom' to make deadlines is affecting other users freedom to have beautiful lineages and their potential offspring trades.

 

Given that so much of trading is centered around lineages, it would seem that lineages are very important.

 

Given that alterations to peoples lineages and alterations to the value of peoples dragons are made without their consent and they have no freedom to even object, shows that this needs to change.

 

How can that possibly be given less importance then users ability to make a deadline, if they choose too. At least they have a choice in the matter. Why should such a vast number of other people be so incredibly inconvenienced just so that a small crowd can make deadlines.

 

So unless there is a way that will allow both parties to be catered for, personally I see no alternative but to restore lineages and I think that making the dragon appear in lineages, rather then the tombstone is the simplest most effective way to go. I really don't see how making it a BSA is going to work, rather this will overcomplicate the matter.

Edited by Dubious

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I would put forward a suggestion that the tombstone only appears on the actual dragon 'view' page and that lineages display the dragon, not the tombstone.

I would STRONGLY support this, not only for the practical reasons you state, but also for the reason that it's illogical and just plain weird for part of a dragon's lineage to vanish from view because a family member dies. Just imagine if that happened to human family trees!

 

However, I don't see why we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why not have dead dragons' pictures and ancestry continue to appear normally and logically in lineages by default, BUT allow an option on the settings page to "remove dead dragons from lineages," thus accomodating any user who wants to preserve the look of tombstone lineages? I have no use for them myself, but some people have put a lot of work into making them, so why not let people who like deadlines customize their scrolls to view them the way they made/traded for/prefer them? These are, after all, our SCROLLS... it makes sense for different users to be able to draw our dragons' lineages in a different style if we prefer.

 

I think solutions that allow more options are better than solutions that inconvenience one group to please another, even if I do think it would be much more logical the new way. :-)

 

I wonder if you should start a new thread with your new proposal, since I suspect it may get lost at the bottom of this thread.

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I would STRONGLY support this, not only for the practical reasons you state, but also for the reason that it's illogical and just plain weird for part of a dragon's lineage to vanish from view because a family member dies. Just imagine if that happened to human family trees!

 

However, I don't see why we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why not have dead dragons' pictures and ancestry continue to appear normally and logically in lineages by default, BUT allow an option on the settings page to "remove dead dragons from lineages," thus accomodating any user who wants to preserve the look of tombstone lineages? I have no use for them myself, but some people have put a lot of work into making them, so why not let people who like deadlines customize their scrolls to view them the way they made/traded for/prefer them? These are, after all, our SCROLLS... it makes sense for different users to be able to draw our dragons' lineages in a different style if we prefer.

 

I think solutions that allow more options are better than solutions that inconvenience one group to please another, even if I do think it would be much more logical the new way. :-)

 

I wonder if you should start a new thread with your new proposal, since I suspect it may get lost at the bottom of this thread.

I'd like something like this. In most cases I dislike deadlines, but in some cases--Tinsels, Prizes, Alts, and Hybrids, notably--they can be used to create really cool faux checkers that simply wouldn't be possible to create otherwise. I always thought it would be neat to do a deadline Tinsel checker where you get to a high enough gen that the tombstones are pushed off the page. That'd be pretty epic. So I support anything that allows both sides to see their way. I still kind of like the suggestion in the OP, because it'd allow me to protect my valuable lineages while also being able to enjoy the deadlines I DO want to see, but I feel a simple on/off toggle in account settings might be the easiest fix. Some deadline makers might get mad that people would choose not to look at their deadlines the way they wanted them seen, but you can't force people to look at things they don't want to. If they want to see it, they will, and that should be enough.

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@ADP- It doesn't make sense to me that offspring of an un-researched dragon never have the ability to research.

 

Or do you mean that the offspring of an unresearched dragon will show the unresearched lineage, but will still have the option to research?

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Um... A bit confused by the question. The simplest way I can put it is that if a dragon's lineage changes after a dragon is received (ie deadlined), the lineage can be researched. Whereas if you trade for a dragon that was already deadlined (say, a 3rd gen from a deadlined 2nd gen), you couldn't research. Basically it's meant to assure against nasty surprises rather than to allow people to peek behind deadlines they knowingly collected. Does that answer your question...?

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