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angelicdragonpuppy

Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

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When I have enough offspring from that particular ancestor (tops about 4 per starter tinsel when I was working with them), I kill Deadline Fodder and it's mate. This breaking the lineage right at the line I want.

 

 

I take 3 generations to make my deadlines. Research isn't very compatible with how I work my lines. If they're tied into breeding, then I'm screwed all the way through.

If I understand the Research BSA and your method right, you might still be good to go, since it depends on the egg having that info originally.

 

Original Messy Dragon, Deadline Fodder, and Seed Baby are all on your scroll. Seed Baby was bred before OMD was killed; he had access to that genealogical information originally, and Research just repairs the new gap with information he already had.

 

Seed Baby's offspring, bred after OMD's death, never had that information; if Seed Baby or Deadline Fodder never provide it (through Research), then they never have the option of having that info. It's a deadline, because you, as the last step to that information, decide to cut the line there.

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Why is there a problem with being able to undo an accidental research? Accidents, being accidents, happen. Whether due to stupidty, carelessness, being tired or whatever. If it makes people feel better to assign ulterior motives to why an accident happened, go for it. Doesn't make me feel any differently about an undo button. Technically, even deaths have an undo button. Revive. It may not work 100% of the time, but it's there.

That's actually one of my questions. But to me it opens a can of worms. Think about it. What happens if you research a dragon, breed an egg, and then discard the research? And what about the first question, where you have offspring and then research the dragon [possibly either giving them the new lineage or giving them the ability to research] and then discard the research?

 

Either way, what happens to the offspring?

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That's actually one of my questions. But to me it opens a can of worms. Think about it. What happens if you research a dragon, breed an egg, and then discard the research? And what about the first question, where you have offspring and then research the dragon [possibly either giving them the new lineage or giving them the ability to research] and then discard the research?

 

Either way, what happens to the offspring?

A time limit would probably be fine. Any of the other "fixes" are time limited. Being that you can't influence under 3 days, etc. I think Revives are limited in that way as well.

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Only if your definition of being screwed is knowing that some people could still see the messy routes of your lineage... IF they choose to... and IF offspring ever left your scroll before you deadlined. That's a lot of "ifs" for something that's not really all that horrible anyway. smile.gif

Yeah, that's pretty much my definition of it in this scenario.

 

I don't mind it if they're vampire repulses, because that also stops them in their tracks, and vampires aren't AP blockers. But I've accidentally bounced eggs off my scroll, you know how it goes, deaths counting like they do for a while, and miscalculations.

 

And it's not a bother to you, but it is to me.

 

 

Seed Baby's offspring, bred after OMD's death, never had that information; if Seed Baby or Deadline Fodder never provide it (through Research), then they never have the option of having that info. It's a deadline, because you, as the last step to that information, decide to cut the line there.

But that's the thing. I do test out Seed Baby with potential mates. Occasionally offspring from those tests have escaped my slaughterhouse scroll, but I accept that. But those escaped offspring basically open up their parent to being researched and that I don't really like. Since I didn't intentionally abandon them and if I could grab them from the AP myself, I would.

 

I'd still like some kind of perma-"You Shall Not Research THIS Dragon Ever" addendum to this. I don't care what BSA you use.

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I am ultimately empathetic to both sides of this conflict.

The way the rights of the parents' owners are being attacked ( I.E, "they shouldn't be allowed to ruin my lineage!" ) does admittedly turn me off of any compromise or change just because of the way it's being addressed, sigh. Those dragons are bound to their scroll - it's like having a neighbor demand you to paint your house white so that the whole neighborhood matches color and expect for it to be done. Or tell you not to build a fence around your property because they want the look of neighborhood unity. That has happened to me where I live, and the only reason I wanted a fence was because I was getting a puppy. Still, they attacked me for it, so I'm sympathetic to that scenario.

I'm not.. suuuper addicted to lineages, but empathetically placing myself into the mind of someone who is, having a dead dragon in an offspring's "perfect" lineage would make me sad. >: If the dragon was 'paid for' extensively, I think it would at least be courteous to be mailed or PM'd about the death decision so that my jaw wouldn't completely hit the floor.

 

Everyone within it contributes to a lineage, but once it leaves their scroll, that's it. I'm not telling people who own offspring to get over it, but be nice! Compose your arguments, even if you feel strongly that you're right, because the best way to win someone to compromise is with kind words, not with block-headed comments or all caps. With the way it is now, you're at the parent-owner's mercy, and viciously and outwardly denying them the right to handle their dragons (like disabling the kill function) as they want will only make them make up reasons to deny compromise that would even make both sides happy.

Because they're offended.

They give someone an offspring, and then that basically means that dragon is stuck with them forever and they can't kill it for whatever reason they have. Where's the joy in sharing low gens/rares, then? They're trapped into a commitment that they didn't even officially make. Wasn't the trade enough? Or trusting someone with IOU's? To me it makes no sense to kill something CB or low generation rares, but maybe that will change when I actually have a lot of either of those.

 

Being stuck between the conflict, I really enjoy PokemonFan's idea. It gives every owner of a dragon in a single lineage the control over what is seen from their POV. I don't much mind a dead dragon in a lineage of my dragon, (and I feel like a lot of people would be smart enough to guess what dragon the tombstone was if the lineage is clean/consistent enough, honestly.) but this would be an excellent addition to see. Viewers toggling would solve very little, because they would ruin the, say, mystique of a player's precious deadline by peeking in, but if the control was in the scroll owner's hand, that can be prevented.

As can the Offspring Owner's Lament.

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First, I do agree that some rather too strong language has been used here about dragon killers, but it probably shows the frustration with lineage ruining more than anything.

 

 

The problem with my idea is that some deadliners are rabid about nobody being able to see behind their tombstones...

 

That's what's nice about research. If they control where the offspring go before they kill and specifically kill the ancestors before they go breeding the deadline a lot they can completely prevent peeking. It also allows people who already have the dragon when the killing happens to restore the lineage. Best of both worlds.

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The problem with my idea is that some deadliners are rabid about nobody being able to see behind their tombstones...

 

That's what's nice about research.  If they control where the offspring go before they kill and specifically kill the ancestors before they go breeding the deadline a lot they can completely prevent peeking.  It also allows people who already have the dragon when the killing happens to restore the lineage.  Best of both worlds.

This is pretty much my thoughts on that particular problem.

 

The same way that, if you don't want your bred egg to be named something stupid, or to be killed, you *keep it on your scroll*. The only way to have complete control over any specific dragon is to keep it on your own scroll, or give them only to people you trust to do things the way you want them done. And if deadliners are so serious about their projects, they should already know that.

 

Which is why I honestly don't see the "deadliners" thing as a big stumbling block here. There are ways to make them happy, while *also* making those of us happy who feel it's not fair that our dragon's special lineage suddenly looks like crap because some random user decided to do something to a dragon on their scroll, and for some reason that suddenly affects the way we see lineages.

 

Anotherwords, I want Research.

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This is actually happening. I cannot tell you how upset I am about this. It's INCLUDING ZOMBIES AND ZOMBIE LINEAGES NO JOKE

 

This is wrong, wrong WRONG

 

NO deadlines

 

NO zombie lineages

 

Not anymore

 

How sad.

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Explain?

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry7037011

 

To clarify, the lineage disapeared form the lineage page, but the parents are still there on the view page. Maybe it's not related to this thread, but it seems very suspicious to me.

 

My zombified tinsel looks like a cb on its lineage page, doesn't show at all on its parents progeny pages, and shows up with dead parents on its child's lineage page. Maybe I'm wrong about it being related to this thread, however.

 

e2. SPS posted a link to a post by TJ explaining the changes in that thread.

Edited by platedlizard

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It's a neat idea, for those who like to see beyond the tombstone, to be able to do so.

 

Cause then there should be finally no one whining anymore when lovers of deadline lineages do what they do. ^^" A dragon that sits on your scroll is 'your' dragon. You should be able to form it however you like it. Therefor I rather support a BSA, that ONLY acts on the scroll where it is performed, than taking away the fun from a big user community. wink.gif

 

There would be happy people on both sides with this option. ^^"

 

 

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Guess we'll have to wait and see what TJ is up to.

The Zombie lineage bit has been fixed I gather.

I hope the current projects will have their parents removed as per the rules of the moment, even if there are to be changes in the future.

 

I've been waiting for the poll to go up on this thread to see exactly where the majority opinion stands. But I suppose we'll never know as most have forgotten about this now.

 

 

 

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As I recall the OP said they hate polls, somewhere ?

 

The majority of deadliners are 100% in favour of the lines showing as dead on their scrolls, at least...

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Read back and you're right Fuzz.

I only remembered the part where the OP said, "I think I'd like to get the thread wiped first..."

One way to make sure you're not outvoted I suppose.

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Read back and you're right Fuzz.

I only remembered the part where the OP said, "I think I'd like to get the thread wiped first..."

One way to make sure you're not outvoted I suppose.

I think it's more that if you have a poll at the start people vote without thinking. And I know that I have in the past voted and later changed my mind after there has been discussion. And you can't change a vote. So an early poll really doesn't work.

 

Also this is a very unusual issue. We have two camps here - the deadenders like me, who want the deadend to be just that, and the people who really want to see past it all. And I really thing it would be unfair to spoil things for either group. That would seriously affect playstyle. I know I am holding off starting my inspired deadline, until we see what happens, so as not to waste time and effort. If we cannot have both options, set by the users on their own scrolls, I want to know which way to jump. Only TJ can tell us.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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Read back and you're right Fuzz.

I only remembered the part where the OP said, "I think I'd like to get the thread wiped first..."

One way to make sure you're not outvoted I suppose.

The suggestion has changed drastically since this thread was first made. My thought on wiping the thread before a poll was made was so that old arguments which are no longer relevant don't confuse people, not to try to influence my victory. Thanks.

 

This is actually happening. I cannot tell you how upset I am about this. It's INCLUDING ZOMBIES AND ZOMBIE LINEAGES NO JOKE

 

This is wrong, wrong WRONG

 

As per the original post, this feature would allow deadlines to be set in stone for everyone's view by their owners, not totally erase deadlines altogether. I have never once suggested that deadlines be completely removed. Whatever's going on now is a result of TJ's own choice, not an implementation of this thread's suggestion (although from what I gather it's only affecting Zombies, so it might be a different thing entirely? Zombies aren't really 'dead' in the same way as other dead dragons, after all)

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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As per the original post, this feature would allow deadlines to be set in stone for everyone's view by their owners, not totally erase deadlines altogether. I have never once suggested that deadlines be completely removed. Whatever's going on now is a result of TJ's own choice, not an implementation of this thread's suggestion (although from what I gather it's only affecting Zombies, so it might be a different thing entirely? Zombies aren't really 'dead' in the same way as other dead dragons, after all)

That's true about the zomblies. But someone was saying that deadends WERE being affected... that "newly killed" dragons' lineages were showing up in lineages LONG after they should have in the old ways. I can't test this, as I don't kill; I was GOING to, for the deadend I am planning, but am holding off...

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This is definitely one of those issues that folk are either 100% for or 100% against. I don't even remember any partial opinions for this.

 

I'm one of the 'hates deadlines' camp, going by the arguement that just because something is dead doesn't erase history. My parents and grandparents may be dead, but that doesn't erase my ancestry and if MY lineage could be viewed, I'd like to see ALL of it, not just the part that is still living. And the same goes for my dragons, if it's dead I want to see a tombstone, if it's a zombie I want to see a zombie, but I also want to see what came BEFORE the zombie or tombstone. Just because it's dead doesn't mean it didn't happen, and THAT is what we're asking for.

 

Deadlines might be visually pleasing, but they don't tell the whole story. And some folk.. but NOT all deadliners.. try to cheat or trade frauds. Those folk make the rest of 'you' look bad no matter what is said. When there is no way to check past the tombstone, there's no way to find out if an egg is low gen or high gen. There is no way to check if something is or is not descended from a special lineage.

 

It's just my opinion, but to me deadlines encourage bad breeding. Rather than taking the time to create a visually pleasing living lineage, folk will just kill off the messy part of a bad lineage and use the tombstones to artificially create a pretty line. That just screams CHEATING to me.

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It's just my opinion, but to me deadlines encourage bad breeding. Rather than taking the time to create a visually pleasing living lineage, folk will just kill off the messy part of a bad lineage and use the tombstones to artificially create a pretty line. That just screams CHEATING to me.

In cases where people don't have access to low-gens of very rare breeds, it might be the only way to create the aesthetically-pleasing lineages they want. I made 6 deadline tinsels that appear second-gen a long time ago when I never thought I'd get a tinsel lower than 5th-gen. And I admit that every single one of them is a deadline, and are not worth nearly as much as the offspring of true second-gens would be... and aside from two tinsels I was just gifted within the last week, they were by far the prettiest tinsel lineages I ever had or hoped to have. It's not so much cheating as making do with what you can get ahold of. And what if there is no (color) Tinsel x (insert breed here) lineage? You can make one yourself by breeding a Tinsel with a CB of that breed, killing the lineaged Tinsel while leaving the CB alive, and breed on as if it was a second-gen. That's pretty much the only way for a random user to start a prize line with a new breed, barring expensive trades or extreme generosity.

 

This can apply to normal metallics too. Not everyone can get a CB, and should they be left out of the loop entirely and have to make do with a 57th-gen super-inbred Silver if their playstyle would rather have a deadline?

 

I really think that erasing the lineage of a dead dragon should ABSOLUTELY be possible- even if it's not default, it needs to be possible. I'm cool with being able to restore the lineages if you own the dragon in question, even with making the lineages stay in place by default, but not with throwing deadlines out.

Edited by TheCompleteAnimorph

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It's just my opinion, but to me deadlines encourage bad breeding. Rather than taking the time to create a visually pleasing living lineage, folk will just kill off the messy part of a bad lineage and use the tombstones to artificially create a pretty line. That just screams CHEATING to me.

I was against deadlines until the Tinsels came out. Now that there are prize dragons that the general user cannot obtain, I like my deadline projects simply because I can make an aesthetically pleasing lineage with Tinsels that is impossible otherwise.

 

I like my deadlines, and I think that when used appropriately they can create gorgeous lineages, like this Rosegrave Tinsel or my "Purebred" False-Gen Bronze Tinsel. smile.gif

 

I would never try to pass these off as anything other than a deadline, and anyone who cares to look would know right away that the lineages have been doctored. But they're pretty, and it's a project I wouldn't have had the opportunity to breed otherwise!

 

I did manage to get on a list for a 2nd gen Shimmer at some point, and I'll confess I'm hoping they produce a Shimmerkin first so I can do one of those inbred checkerboards, and this way it won't be a deadline. That's an opportunity that I never had and probably never will have for the Tinsels, and it makes me sad to think that I may not be able to stretch my Tinsel projects to higher generations due to a potential change in the way dragon deaths occur. I am hoping that this issue is resolved in a way that will make both sides happy, as I sincerely do understand how upsetting it is to lose part of a lineage you cared about. I have had that happen to me as well, and it's frustrating!

 

But I'm hoping the resolution will be one that will make both sides happy. smile.gif

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As per the original post, this feature would allow deadlines to be set in stone for everyone's view by their owners, not totally erase deadlines altogether. I have never once suggested that deadlines be completely removed. Whatever's going on now is a result of TJ's own choice, not an implementation of this thread's suggestion (although from what I gather it's only affecting Zombies, so it might be a different thing entirely? Zombies aren't really 'dead' in the same way as other dead dragons, after all)

Update

 

NOT just zombies

 

sad.gif

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I'm with TCA on this. I mean I'm one of those users who isn't able to get many low gen tinsels, and it's only with extreme luck and generosity from a couple of people that I got Hollies. One of which is an extremely gorgeous Deadline. Personally, I traded several tinsels for it, and I couldn't care less about its messy parentage, but am upset that should its lineage be revealed to show the (apparently slightly) messed up lineage it has, I wouldn't like it as much, and my plans for breeding a deadlined tinsel as a mate would be messed up. I definitely agree with the BSA, as long as, and ONLY on the individuals scroll, not on anyone else's, regardless of who the parents are owned by, etc, etc. I agree with the BSA because sometimes you accidentally kill an adult (Or purposefully in the case of Zombies experiments) but the lineage was gorgeous and you want the deads' offspring to have a lineage, then fine I understand that. But it should be the option of the individual. People who like deadend lineages, or have them out of necessity shouldn't be crippled in their play styles.

 

I also disagree with the "Dead lineages are cheating others" it's like taking a risk with IOU's you do it, or you don't. Take the dead end lineage regardless of its history and take the chance that they told the truth, or don't and go play some where else. People should not have their choices taken away because some one cried foul play on such a lineage. It's easy, don't like a dead end lineage take your trade/request elsewhere.

 

Again I'm totally open to the use of a BSA to reveal a dragons lineage, and I'm even ok with others seeing deadlined dragons... They want to see my messy tinsel lineage, let them, as long as I don't have to look at the mess.

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I'm not even doing it with tins.

Not even with RARES.

I am just (If I do, now) breeding a lineage for my own scroll, which needs a deadend just because I want it to have one.

 

If I EVER traded from it I would explain its chequered history xd.png

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Personally, I'll only do it if I need a certain mate for a dragon I have, and it's been dead ended, or I'm zombiefying. But my point is, that to take away our preferences rather than implementing something that suits the others is unfair to us, and that the BSA option to have the lineage show up one the individuals scroll is probably the most desirable, and most fair option for all users involved... Unless some strange person wants to ultimately do away with lineages altogether, then I got nothing..

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