Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[DragonNighthowler]

Thing is I don't create deadlines to hide anything; I do them for FUN. Absolutely never to deceive. I've been given dragons with OK LOOKING lineages but with tombstones in a few slots at the base. They look nice. Sure, unless someone asked, I would not be breeding them for others - but I don't want their pasts showing up anywhere. They are who they now are.

 

An aside for you. My daughter recently disowned my mother. (A fate my mother RICHLY deserved, by the way; I support my daughter absolutely !) I think my daughter should have the absolute right to expunge my mother from her lineage if she likes. A chunk of her heritage she never wants to see in there again. If she could - why should others be able to see my mother in there ?

I completely agree with this. I have three deadlines, tinsel, I did only for fun, for having my own "fake CB" for my enjoyment. I toss them sometimes in the AP, I might put one up to trade from time to time, and I'm not deceiving anyone. It's a deadline.

I can show their ancestry if you want, and they are all clean, nice lines. If they were messy, inbred lines, I'd tell you too because I have nothing to hide.

When I put them up for trade, I always say "doctored" line. I never specify which line they come from because... well, it is doctored, why should it matter? If I wanted to trade an 8th gen from F-bomb, I'd be trading that, not a doctored from F-bomb.

 

By this, I mean, I'm really impressed that some people would kill off a CB dragon and then trade the descendants as second gen from that dead CB... doesn't really make much sense, or maybe I'm not seeing it which is entirely possible.

More so, I don't get why anyone would bother "cheating" by telling you their dragon comes from this or that line and is really a lovely third gen instead of the long, inbred, messy lineage it really was. But why should that matter at all. You're not trading for a "fake second gen that is really a third gen". You're trading for a dead end... I dunno, maybe it's because I don't really give much importance to what happened before the tombstone that I'm unable to see why anyone would even bother to cheat.

 

That said, I don't mind PF's solution at all. Recently I discovered someone had killed off a dragon, parent to an egg I picked up from the AP. I don't understand, it was a nice even gen, although they might have their motives.

I was a bit annoyed and wouldn't mind being able to see the father's lineage again. It's not to increase their trade value or anything, I wasn't even planning to breed it, but it was a nice line.

[GhostMouse]

Okay, I normaly wouldn't do this, but I think a bunch of people commented at the same time I did and my suggestion got lost in the shuffle. (That, or my suggestion was so bad that no one will even address it. In that case, my bad, please ignore me.)

[XiziX]

You people do realize that the lineage information being cut off from dead dragons is the entire reason that people bother with deadlines at all?

 

Unless it's a gen 13+, all involved parties have no excuse to be NOT aware of a deadline. I see plain no reason to use server resource to ruin current deadline players' playstyle, because the point of "protecting" traders simply cannot stand - you can't "scam" someone into believing a deadline dragon to be normal unless the other party is extra stupid.

 

The only downside of keeping it this way is that long lineages have the chance of having a lineage member killed off to ruin it, which is, unfortunately, an inherent risk of not being in control of all the dragons in the lineage, a risk that deadline creators should not have to sacrifice for you.

 

And please stop pretending that having the display "optional" will lead to a win-win scenario. It does not. We create deadlines to cut off the dragons' ties with their parents permamently to everyone, not to allow you to click a few buttons and reveal some 2123-inbred dragon behind them.

This post sums up my thoughts already. Part of having a bred dragon is risking that their lineage could be messed up at one point in time. If you don't like your lineages being ruined, then go make your own, or get one from a reliable source that refuses to kill their dragons.

 

As for valuable lineages being ruined. The value may differ from person to person.

 

So, obviously implementing this gets a big 'No.' from me.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Lyxii

[Shamiir]

ADP' I did actually mean 'your' holly case, not your holly literally.

i should have been more precise (but it's 5.30 am here, so's you take yer risks lol)

 

I have had the same happen to me ADP, I empathize entirely.

Nobody likes to see a good lineage ruined.

But I don't go trying to bend the rules or get upset when the game doesn't play out my way.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Shamiir

[angelicdragonpuppy]

But I don't go trying to bend the rules or get upset when the game doesn't play out my way.

What you call bending the rules I call making a suggestion to improve gameplay.

 

All up to TJ in the end, at any rate. I still think a system in which ALL groups can enjoy their lineages as they wish to see them is better then one in which only one group can.

[DragonNighthowler]

I don't pick up deadlines, Fuzz. However, I have had dragons with nice lineages have their worth ruined because someone killed one of their ancestors. And sometimes these are dragons I traded for, thinking they'd retain a certain level of worth that is now utterly gone. :C

 

Also, it's not always possible to have lineages only from your scroll. I am very, very, VERY unlikely to ever get a CB Holly or CB Tinsel. Newer players will likely never get CB Old Pinks or Frills. You have to depend on other people in order to start lineages with them--but considering how rare some of those dragons I mentioned are (especially the first two), finding someone who's both willing to trade with you AND who you know you can trust without a doubt is very, very hard.

 

My goal here isn't to ruin deadlines (although as I've said a billion times, YOU can still continue viewing YOUR deadlines how you like, as can other people who enjoy seeing them that way!). It's to ensure stuff that ends up on your scroll can't be messed with due to someone else's actions. DC is supposed to be an independent game, but if someone else can murder their dragon and permanently change the look of a dragon you own's lineage, that's not truly independent, is it?

 

Anyway, a few random thoughts:

 

- PF13's Idea: I just had a thought, PF, and--I think for your suggestion to work, people would have to be able to choose how they want to view any dragon, regardless of if they own it or not. Let's say someone offers me what they insist is a 3rd gen Holly with a dead CB Holly grandpa. If I accept and only after I've traded can I check the linage--to find out that grandpa was actually a 7th gen inbred Holly--I'd be quite upset. So, people should be able to view how they view any dragon, with the default for every dragon being the tombstone view. You could then turn on the full lineage for any given dragon if you wished, as you said (and perhaps this could be turned back off later?)

 

- The Fading Idea: I don't like this one much. If you have a 8th gen PB GW or something, and one single CB is grayed out, it's still going to catch your eye and drive you nuts, just like a single speck of dust on an otherwise perfectly clean mirror can.

 

- Another reason to allow a full lineage view: Deadlines are, by their very nature, deceptive. You make something look a certain gen when it might not be so. More than once I've seen someone offering a 3rd gen Tinsel or Metal only to find that (groan) it's a deadline 3rd gen, which almost always makes it worth much less than a verified true 3rd gen. Now, I know this, and thus avoid them. But a new player might not, and might get decieved into trading a good sum of things for something that, to their surprise, isn't worth what they thought it was. Having a way to check true lineage would prevent such things.

I think the worth is in the eye of the beholder. It's not like there is a table of prices. I've heard of someone trading 64 new release halloween for a single CB gold. I found that was an outrageous sum to pay for a CB gold which is worthy, but IMO not that worthy compared to a limited release.

But someone was willing to pay that. Should I consider he/she got deceived because I don't agree with what she was willing to pay or with what the OP thought was a fair price for that gold?

 

I've happen to trade a doctored for a second gen red, and I've had to swallow down original 7th gen tinsels because they were so common people thought they were worthless.

I needed a red. Someone liked the line and agreed with it. No harm done, both of us are happy to have our dragons. I think DC market is a very honest one (aside from maybe some failed IOUs). If both people are happy with the trade, why should I consider that someone is abusing or cheating the other?

[TheGrox]

Making it optional to see a dragon in a deadline wouldn't solve much.

 

Firstly, a lot of people would have it turned off (I liek mah deadlines). SO they would all see YOUR lineage with the dead Holly in it. So whilst you yourself may see it with the pretty Holly still in place, others wouldn't.

 

Secondly, you show a deadline's real lineage, and ... ohai 3000th gen inbred balloon. What use is that?

 

 

I know a suggestion to remove the kill button wouldn't solve YOUR lineage problem, ADP, but surely you're putting this suggestion out there to stop something like this happening again, and not just to bring your own lineage back. I still think having a way to make a dragon 'unkillable' would be the best way to keep everyone happy whilst making it easier for people to ensure that, in the future, their lineages don't disappear as yours has.

Edited January 23, 2013 by TheGrox

[Shamiir]

Exactly ADP, any alterations to the system are up to TJ anyway.

 

You made a suggestion, I made a suggestion.

I'm not against updating/reforming the gameplay for the future. But to instate something that will be retroactive and affect what lots of others have worked for years on in good faith? That's bending, to my mind.

 

[XiziX]

DC has the option of a dragon being killed and wiped out of the database. That is just how the game works, and going in here to change all of that for "the greater good" doesn't make any sense. It doesn't improve any gameplay. And if we spent all our time "making everyone happy" then it would only cause more problems. Just because something makes you happy, doesn't mean it makes others happy.

 

If a dragon dies, it dies. There is no point in keeping it up, or the lineage behind it. And I will be honest, I really hope TJ doesn't change this, because there isn't any real point to. A lot of others have given good reasons as to why this shouldn't be implemented. But I haven't yet seen a convincing reasons as to why it should. Other than some people not liking that their 'good' lineages got ruined. (Which is a risk you took.)

 

It is not my responsibility to care about what happens to an egg once it hits the AP. It hit the AP for that reason, I didn't want or need it. You pick up eggs from the AP or from trading via your own risk, and the person who dropped it no longer has to care about what happens to it. Unless you have made an agreement with that person about avoiding killing a dragon, or to take care of it.

 

You also can't pull the card saying "it's your responsibility to keep your dragons alive so the people can keep their good lineages".

No. No it isn't. I shouldn't have to worry about that stuff. If a lineage means that much, as I said before, get it from someone that you know wont kill the dragon. It's your responsibility to make sure you are getting what you want.

 

Just like when you go out to buy a puppy. You can go out to a random breeder and buy it, and risk it having birth defects or bad genes..... Or you can take the time and talk to the breeders, find a reliable one, and then buy it. That is kind of a responsibility the person buying the dog has to understand.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Lyxii

[Banuk]

Conversely, what do people think about me making the site store the lost linage information so that the lineage can continue past the tombstones, preventing people from "doctoring" lineages. To me, it seems disingenuous to try to misrepresent dragons, so...

 

Quote from TJ from the Forum Feedback thread some time ago. Dunno if his stance has changed since then, but just thought I'd leave this here for everyone so we know what he's had to say in the past on this matter.

[Trebol35]

UGH no! I'm sorry a few people have lost lineages due to a killed dragon but that is the name of the game. You cannot force others to stop THEIR lines because you want yours.That is neither right nor fair. You just pull yourself up and change lines, or figure out a NEW way to create the lines you want.

 

Edited post.. was thinking, having a button wouldn't work as TJ would have to store the lines. This would make too much work for him, use up valuable space needed for NEW drags..

Edited January 23, 2013 by Trebol35

[DragonNighthowler]

Quote from TJ from the Forum Feedback thread some time ago. Dunno if his stance has changed since then, but just thought I'd leave this here for everyone so we know what he's had to say in the past on this matter.

I don't understand it. I'm not a native english speaker and rarely use it much in my everyday life. Could you please be so kind to explain what he means with this part?

 

To me, it seems disingenuous to try to misrepresent dragons, so...

[XiziX]

Quote from TJ from the Forum Feedback thread some time ago. Dunno if his stance has changed since then, but just thought I'd leave this here for everyone so we know what he's had to say in the past on this matter.

Again. Some people make Dead Lineages because they like them. I don't see people trying to trick anyone, at least I have not. If someone gets "tricked" into accepting a 2nd Gen that is actually just from a dead line, it is their fault for not looking at the dragon. Tombstones are obvious.

 

And he is the one who put the kill option in there. o-O I guess the question should be. Do we get rid of the kill option? And to get zombies you only get that ability during Halloween? (Oh god I hope not.)

 

But, if it changes. Oh well... but I can imagine a ton of people getting really really mad about it. ;P

Edited January 23, 2013 by Lyxii

[Banuk]

Very simple and easy way to still keep what you want and NOT effect the way others play their game.

Well, when someone kills a dragon with offspring on another person's scroll, they are affecting that person's scroll and very possibly the way THEY play, you know.

 

Just saying.

 

[XiziX]

Well, when someone kills a dragon with offspring on another person's scroll, they are affecting that person's scroll and very possibly the way THEY play, you know.

 

Just saying.

Again. It's a risk they took taking the egg.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

UGH no! I'm sorry a few people have lost lineages due to a killed dragon but that is the name of the game. You cannot force others to stop THEIR lines because you want yours.That is neither right nor fair.  You just pull yourself up and change lines, or figure out a NEW way to create the lines you want.

No one is stopping anyone from making deadlines. They can still see their deadlines. Others can still choose to see their deadlines. In fact, if PF's suggestion was the one chosen, people would HAVE to see the deadline version before they decided whether or not they wanted to see the full lineage, so there would be no 'missing out on' of deadline lineages.

 

Also, I can conversely say that it is not fair for people to wreck the lineages of offspring they might well have made other people pay them for simply because they want to see their dragon as a tombstone.

 

Edited post.. was thinking, having a button wouldn't work as TJ would have to store the lines. This would make too much work for him, use up valuable space needed for NEW drags..

 

People who have been worried about the amount of space DC has have, in the past, suggested that very old scrolls that have been inactive for years be wiped to help free up space. TJ has routinely responded to these threads with the assurance that space is not an issue. Accordingly, I doubt storing dead dragon's info would be an issue, either.

 

I don't understand it. I'm not a native english speaker and rarely use it much in my everyday life. Could you please be so kind to explain what he means with this part?

 

To paraphrase, TJ is saying that it seems rather dishonest that people can make dragons look like something they're not (ex: making inbreds or messies look like clean low-gens that simply have dead CB ancestors).

Edited January 23, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[GhostMouse]

I don't understand it. I'm not a native english speaker and rarely use it much in my everyday life. Could you please be so kind to explain what he means with this part?

 

"Disingenuous" means "dishonest" or "deceitful," like lying.

 

Basically, TJ's saying that to him, it feels like lying to hide parts of a dragon's lineage that way.

 

Does that help?

[DragonNighthowler]

"Disingenuous" means "dishonest" or "deceitful," like lying.

 

Basically, TJ's saying that to him, it feels like lying to hide parts of a dragon's lineage that way.

 

Does that help?

Yep, thanks.

[Trebol35]

Derranged lmao waiting for the coffee to kick in so thanks for that..

 

I've had my lines changed by others. As i said it's the nature of the game, but i enjoy the challenge of figuring out a new way to make that line something special again. There is no one way to play this game. Thanks to TJ there are fantastic ways to make lines that are beautiful and creative.

 

If you pay for a dragon and the lines change then that is the chance you take. It sucks yes but again that is the game. Be smart enough to turn it into and advantage for yourself. By changing the kill it's changing the game for others, in other words you force THEM to play the game as you wish it.

 

Yes there are some dishonest folk out there who misrepresent their lines, But that is saying that all who deadline are dishonest. So all apples are bad because there is a rotten one in the bunch. So then because of this i am forced to change the way i play my game?

 

Edited again...

 

The term Sour grapes just came to mind.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Trebol35

[Fuzzbucket]

^ this ^

 

DC has the option of a dragon being killed and wiped out of the database. That is just how the game works, and going in here to change all of that for "the greater good" doesn't make any sense. It doesn't improve any gameplay. And if we spent all our time "making everyone happy" then it would only cause more problems. Just because something makes you happy, doesn't mean it makes others happy.

 

If a dragon dies, it dies. There is no point in keeping it up, or the lineage behind it. And I will be honest, I really hope TJ doesn't change this, because there isn't any real point to. A lot of others have given good reasons as to why this shouldn't be implemented. But I haven't yet seen a convincing reasons as to why it should. Other than some people not liking that their 'good' lineages got ruined. (Which is a risk you took.)

 

It is not my responsibility to care about what happens to an egg once it hits the AP. It hit the AP for that reason, I didn't want or need it. You pick up eggs from the AP or from trading via your own risk, and the person who dropped it no longer has to care about what happens to it. Unless you have made an agreement with that person about avoiding killing a dragon, or to take care of it.

You also can't pull the card saying "it's your responsibility to keep your dragons alive so the people can keep their good lineages".

No. No it isn't. I shouldn't have to worry about that stuff. If a lineage means that much, as I said before, get it from someone that you know wont kill the dragon. It's your responsibility to make sure you are getting what you want.

 

Just like when you go out to buy a puppy. You can go out to a random breeder and buy it, and risk it having birth defects or bad genes..... Or you can take the time and talk to the breeders, find a reliable one, and then buy it. That is kind of a responsibility the person buying the dog has to understand.

And also this. Sure it's a shame if someone kills a dragon in a lineage you have. BUT - one day YOU may want to kill something. We all play the way we play, and we have to put up with it when others don't do what we wish they had. It's life. I wish my mother hadn't behaved so badly to my daughter. But there's absolutely nothing I can - OR INDEED SHOULD - do about it. It is the same kind of issue. Stuff happens and we move on.

 

And previous few players deadend in order to deceive - and anyone GETTING a deadend lineaged egg/hatchie knows that it isn't what it appears to be, The ONLY REAL issue here is with things getting deaded in lineages.

 

Lord - one of my HOLLIES has a zombie in there. And ?

Edited January 23, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Nectaris]

I don't mind the idea of giving people the option to see the lineage if they want to. As for the space issue, that is for TJ to decide. I seem to remember at some point him coming out and saying not to veto an idea based on how much space it might take up, for he knows the sites capacity better than anyone else on the forum and what you think will be a problem might not be.

 

I'm neutral on the graying out the image, though mostly because I think the tombstone needs a massive overhaul(there was a thread about it somewhere which had some beautiful options) so it looks kind of ugly in lineages.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Nectaris

[LibbyLishly]

Without bothering to read the five pages worth of rants, I support any way to get rid of the gravestone in images - even if it's just something you can enable in your own preferences or on individual dragon's lineages when you're viewing them. I enjoy creating lineages because of the artistry behind it, and it's disappointing to find your work of art has been spoiled by someone else, or a great work that you own spoiled by actions beyond your control.

 

My brief skimming of the for arguments presented some good ideas as to what to do about deadlines, so I'm pretty sure that there is a way that this is viable. A faded-out image of the dragon's sprite would work, too, instead of the gravestone.

 

Just because something is the way we've always done things is not in the least a good reason to keep doing it that way.

Edited January 23, 2013 by LibbyLishly

[Fuzzbucket]

Without bothering to read the five pages worth of rants, I support any way to get rid of the gravestone in images - even if it's just something you can enable in your own preferences or on individual dragon's lineages when you're viewing them. I enjoy creating lineages because of the artistry behind it, and it's disappointing to find your work of art has been spoiled by someone else, or a great work that you own spoiled by actions beyond your control.

 

My brief skimming of the for arguments presented some good ideas as to what to do about deadlines, so I'm pretty sure that there is a way that this is viable. A faded-out image of the dragon's sprite would work, too, instead of the gravestone.

 

Just because something is the way we've always done things is not in the least a good reason to keep doing it that way.

Well, not as such. But retroactive change is also not OK.

[siliconrose]

Well, not as such. But retroactive change is also not OK.

Whatever we decide, it's unlikely to be retroactive (or, at least, probably not retroactive for forever). After all, I still have a 2009 vampire who doesn't have a Bitten By; TJ probably doesn't have completely comprehensive logs.

[Fuzzbucket]

Didn't he say he COULD do that right back to whenever and would when he got around to it ?