Change the Holidays

[Fuzzbucket]

And I find this thread aggravating to read because by insisting that, "It's Christmas, nothing needs to change." we as a community aren't respecting others' "religions".

 

If it didn't bother anyone, this thread wouldn't exist. As it stands, "Christmas" might not even make sense in the medieval fantasy setting of DC, depending on whether or not Christianity exists in the DC world.

Medieval = sort of 500 AD to 1500. And if you set something in those times, you include what was in existence then, even when you add dragons. (which I happen to believe in actually, but that's another story.)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages

 

Christmas very certainly DID exist.

 

Just saying.

 

And - if it bothered anything like a majority of players here, that would maybe be something that needed attention. But even within this thread - among the people who are bothering to come to it - it doesn't appear to be a majority. And as has been said - TJ celebrates whatever he likes on TJ's site.

Edited January 17, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[angelicdragonpuppy]

And I find this thread aggravating to read because by insisting that, "It's Christmas, nothing needs to change." we as a community aren't respecting others' "religions".

 

If it didn't bother anyone, this thread wouldn't exist. As it stands, "Christmas" might not even make sense in the medieval fantasy setting of DC, depending on whether or not Christianity exists in the DC world.

Out of all the winter Holidays, Christmas is the only one that has become really 'secular-friendly,' so to speak. There isn't a commercialized version of Kwanza or Hannukah or Winter Solstice. There is, however, a very neutral version of Christmas--the one with Santa and presents and tree decorating and gingerbread-house-baking, one that has no ties to the religious side of Christmas and can be enjoyed (or at least SHOULD be able to be enjoyed) by everyone regardless of faith. Now, imagine you made it a general winter Holiday thing or a made-up DC Holiday. Can you think of anything not related to the worldly version of Christmas that would make for a good, well-known winter celebration event? I can't. You might strip the word Christmas out of it, but it would still either be a Christmas event at its heart or it'd be something that very few people would recognize as a part of winter celebration (unless you went like... total flat winter theme and had stuff like snowmen decorating or something, but that's all winter long, and thus doesn't seem particularly 'special' or worth being excited over to me).

 

I also question how many people are really upset by this, because again--I've been on the forums for over three years and this is the very first time I have ever heard of anyone having a problem with it. Also since the maker of the site is the one who added Christmas events in the first place, I think it's rather silly for anyone else to be arguing about whether or not Christmas is a thing in the DC world, hm?

 

And - if it bothered anything like a majority of players here, that would maybe be something that needed attention. But even within this thread - among the people who are bothering to come to it - it doesn't appear to be a majority. And as has been said - TJ celebrates whatever he likes on TJ's site.

 

Well said!

Edited January 17, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Banuk]

Medieval = sort of 500 AD to 1500. And if you set something in those times, you include what was in existence then, even when you add dragons. (which I happen to believe in actually, but that's another story.)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages

 

Christmas very certainly DID exist.

 

Just saying.

Mmhmm.

 

Let's see.

 

The Lord of the Rings universe is a medieval fantasy setting, if I remember correctly. No Christianity there that I remember.

 

I don't remember any notion of Christianity in the old Dungeons and Dragons books I read (though that was some time ago).

 

Adding things like magic and mythical creatures makes it a medieval fantasy setting, not just medieval. Therefore, things don't have to follow the rules of our world.

 

 

I'd love to hear TJ's thoughts on that, actually--if DC is a medieval setting of our world, just with dragons, or a perpetually medieval era world of its own. That could go a long way towards deciding whether to keep "Christmas" in the name or not.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The Lord of the Rings universe is a medieval fantasy setting, if I remember correctly. No Christianity there that I remember.

 

I'd love to hear TJ's thoughts on that, actually--if DC is a medieval setting of our world, just with dragons, or a perpetually medieval era world of its own. That could go a long way towards deciding whether to keep "Christmas" in the name or not.

You do realize LotR is based very, very heavily off the Catholic faith, don't you? Yes, Tolkien might've used made-up names for God and the angels and such, but he very much intended it to be a fantasy-themed representation of Christianity.

 

As a side note, I've had dragons with actual Christian references in their descriptions approved. To totally remove Christmas from DC, you'd have to retroactively remove both the current Christmas dragon's descriptions AND certain user-written descriptions. Otherwise you've got half and half, don't you? The whole idea of removing the word Christmas seems silly and far more work then it's worth.

[Banuk]

Ugh, I give up.

 

I'll just go take my atheism and exclusion and go suffer in silence, like everyone else forces me to do. I apologize if I offend your holiday with my filthy non-belief and want to try and make other people who feel the same as me not feel that way.

 

All I'm really seeing here is the same, "Ewwww, change! Kill it with fire!" mentality that I always see around here. Shouldn't be surprised at this point, really.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Derranged

[Isuzu]

What I don't really understand is why is this turning into a religious debate and why is the word "Christmas" such a bad thing. Last I checked there are other not-Christian countries that celebrate Christmas just for the fun of it and non-religious people in general who enjoy the holiday, so why is it a problem here?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Ugh, I give up.

 

I'll just go take my atheism and exclusion and go suffer in silence, like everyone else forces me to do. I apologize if I offend your holiday with my filthy non-belief and want to try and make other people who feel the same as me not feel that way.

Ah, yes, because our use of the word Christmas in a secular way and our tree decorating and our gingerbread baking and our red-gold-green dragons are clearly all about offending and excluding people. Except no.

 

If you want to be offended, you will be offended--but there is nothing offensive here.

Edited January 17, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

You do realize LotR is based very, very heavily off the Catholic faith, don't you? Yes, Tolkien might've used made-up names for God and the angels and such, but he very much intended it to be a fantasy-themed representation of Christianity.

Well said back

 

Except that I would have thought it was more High-church Anglican... I was wrong there ! You learn a little something every day...

 

@ Derranged - I would MUCH rather you didn't go away. You can come to my birthday party and celebrate. Even though it wouldn't be YOUR birthday. Please try and celebrate all sorts with everyone who is happily celebrating whatever. It is very restorative of goodwill.

 

@ Isuzu - well, yes. Christmas is - on the whole - just fun these days. Apologies to rabid Christians who are offended by that - I can offend them as easily as I can anyone else And I shall continue to attend primary school nativity plays, too. They are so cute with all those little kids with crooked tinsel haloes. And my 8 y/o granddaughter - raised TOTALLY secular by very surprised non-believers, recently announced that she believes in God. She is still deciding whether he is a cat or a rabbit.

 

Can we all celebrate the birth of the Holy Rabbit ??? Who, of course, coincidentally shows up at Easter, now that I think of it - and provides eggs - must be a miracle as rabbits don't lay eggs... as granddaughter pointed out a long time ago.

Edited January 17, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well said back

 

Except that I would have thought it was more High-church Anglican...

 

@ Isuzu - well, yes. Christmas is - on the whole - just fun these days. Apologies to rabid Christians who are offended by that - I can offend them as easily as I can anyone else

Tolkien was a devout Catholic, so while I could be wrong, I imagine he intended it to be based off of Catholicism--even if some people might not see it as such, hehe

 

I take no offense to your statement, because it's true. The secular version of Christmas and the religious version of Christmas are so far removed from one another that I barely even consider them the same thing (although personally I enjoy parts of both, muahaha!). Yes, they share the same name, and yes, they're on the same day--but really, as long as DC keeps to all the non-religious, silly stuff of the wordly version of Christmas (as it has been, and as I imagine it will continue doing!), then there shouldn't be any issue.

 

It's just like Halloween versus All Saint's Day or Samhain; despite them sharing the same day and some of the same customs, the former is very much commercialized and not deep at all, while the latter are both religious in nature.

Edited January 17, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

Tolkien was a devout Catholic, so while I could be wrong, I imagine he intended it to be based off of Catholicism--even if some people might not see it as such, hehe

 

I take no offense to your statement, because it's true. The secular version of Christmas and the religious version of Christmas are so far removed from one another that I barely even consider them the same thing (although personally I enjoy parts of both, muahaha!). Yes, they share the same name, and yes, they're on the same day--but really, as long as DC keeps to all the non-religious, silly stuff of the wordly version of Christmas (as it has been, and as I imagine it will continue doing!), then there shouldn't be any issue.

 

It's just like Halloween versus All Saint's Day or Samhain; despite them sharing the same day and some of the same customs, the former is very much commercialized and not deep at all, while the latter are both religious in nature.

Oops. Given his position in an Oxford college... I had always assumed... Off to read this up !

 

Fair enough ! I stand corrected - I'm sure you are right !

 

But sorry I failed to offend. I tried so hard . (I am BTW an Anglican minister's daughter, on whom religion signally failed to take. He was hugely amused by this !)

[PointOfOrigin]

You are confusing Tolkien with Lewis. While Tolkien was a devout Catholic, most of his writting was shaped by WW2.

[Fuzzbucket]

You are confusing Tolkien with Lewis. While Tolkien was a devout Catholic, most of his writting was shaped by WW2.

No. My Lewis I do know. I was just plain wrong about Tolkien's religion.

 

I really HATE how the Narnia books DO shove Christian mythology down the throats of innocent children. I was REALLY ANGRY when I realised this (I did OK through the first couple - I was only 8 or so - but then... I felt cheated. I'd rather have read the bible from first principles !)

 

Many commentators have remarked on a number of potential parallels between the Middle-earth saga and events in Tolkien's lifetime. The Lord of the Rings is often thought to represent England during and immediately after World War II. Tolkien ardently rejected this opinion in the foreword to the second edition of the novel, stating he preferred applicability to allegory. This theme is taken up at greater length in his essay "On Fairy-Stories", where he argues that fairy-stories are so apt because they are consistent both within themselves and with some truths about reality. He concludes that Christianity itself follows this pattern of inner consistency and external truth. His belief in the fundamental truths of Christianity leads commentators to find Christian themes in The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien objected strongly to C. S. Lewis's use of religious references in his stories, which were often overtly allegorical. However, Tolkien wrote that the Mount Doom scene exemplified lines from the Lord's Prayer.

 

He did put more Christian stuff in there but I can't find the HUGE essay I once read about that, which quoted his son quoting things he had himself said.

Edited January 17, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[BlueIce]

Using the word 'Christmas' is not oppressive. If it was Hannukah, and someone wished me a good one, then I would certainly not be offended. Likewise, people should be able to mention that a dragon is a Christmas dragon without everyone flipping out over it. Oh the horror, they were released on December 25th and are called Christmas dragons accordingly! Seriously, get over it. What's oppressive--mentioning the word Christmas, or trying to remove a very innocent word that's been a part of this site for 4+ years without anyone ever making a stink over it before, simply because you don't enjoy the day and find it somehow 'offensive' because of that? e____e

 

 

 

This this this and this.

I agree with all of this.

 

[TheGrox]

I haven't read all the pages of this thread, but my point of view is:

 

Yes, the holidays may not be accurate exactly to the time period the cave is set. But this is now, and these are the holidays that a majority of users celebrate NOW. It's a question of how far you want to take the RPing sense of the game - but I like holidays just as they are.

 

 

Edit: o.o reading up, I'm not sure we need such an in depth religious debate about things...

Edited January 17, 2013 by TheGrox

[RainDear]

When you're invited to a party, you either: accept, attend, and enjoy yourself, or decline. Your choice. The choice here is the same. I always choose to attend and enjoy myself. Parties and holidays are excuses to have fun. It's unnecessary to read more into it than that, unless you choose to.

 

I vote: "It's not broke, it doesn't need fixing."

[PointOfOrigin]

No. My Lewis I do know. I was just plain wrong about Tolkien's religion.

 

 

 

 

Tolkien was a soldier during the war. He was on the battlefield (in the trenches) and he was sending the chapters of his book to his son in letters as he wrote them. And since he was a devout Catholic some hints at his religion in those circumstances are nothing surprising. Overall, the religion didn't have that much of an impact on his writing.

 

I really HATE how the Narnia books DO shove Christian mythology down the throats of innocent children. I was REALLY ANGRY when I realized this (I did OK through the first couple - I was only 8 or so - but then... I felt cheated. I'd rather have read the bible from first principles !)

 

The part that angers me the most is that he literally took the plot right from the Bible. I mean, you got this incredible wolrd created, just to ruin the story in a ham fisted analogy (and don't forget uncreative)?

 

Sorry for reacting like that, but a big number of people confuses their ideologies since they were BFFs. And nobody is getting the facts about Tolkien wrong at my watch

 

And since this is mostly of topic, I'll just add, that if the holiday release got rescheduled I think that solstice and equinox dates would be the way to go. I also think that summer one shouldn't be a holiday release; I would prefer it much more if it were something like "Beat the heat".

Edited January 17, 2013 by PointOfOrigin

[ShadowMonster]

I mean no offence by this, so I'm really sorry if I'm being rude, but, instead of 'changing the holidays', it sounds more to me like you're 'changing Christmas to winter'. You include two other holidays in this thing, but you're really not saying to change either of them, mainly just Christmas. Christmas shouldn't be changed to 'winter holiday'.

 

THANK YOU ANGELIC!! I love what you're saying!

Ah, yes, because our use of the word Christmas in a secular way and our tree decorating and our gingerbread baking and our red-gold-green dragons are clearly all about offending and excluding people. Except no.

 

If you want to be offended, you will be offended--but there is nothing offensive here.

 

What if I say that you all offend me by not believing in my God and that I want you to take your atheism somewhere else? Well I don't say that, because it's rude. I'm sorry, but it is. If you take the Christ out of Christmas, all you're left with is another day.

[LaHaine]

No one will ever get pleased with anything.

 

I remember one person posted in the news thread that they felt offended with the cooking event because they were vegans and did not want to cook meat.

 

 

It's impossible to please everyone but so far, the Holidays as they are right now, are working out great for most people, in my point of view. Why do we have to create problems now? Why are people getting offende by a couple of pixels?

[RainDear]

If you take the Christ out of Christmas, all you're left with is another day.

I'm sorry. "Christmas" is whatever it is to you. The translation is very personal. To many, it is a reason to celebrate family, exchange gifts and show appreciation to those important in our lives. It is fun and very commercial. But if there is a greater significance to you and in your heart-that is all yours.

[Emeraldmay]

Does it really matter what we call the celebration? Midwinter's day, Christmas, Winter Solsitce, Seasonal Equinoxm it all boils down to one day in Winter where family and friends come together. I don't care if it's called Frostvale, Miramas, or whatever names games I play have cooked up, it's more the spending time with my friends. I have a friend whose a Jehovah's Witness, I just wish her a Happy Winter, and she's fine with it.

 

I didn't realize so many people hated the name, or felt excluded. I'm an atheist, so I've always celebrated christmas as just a day of goodwill, so why don't we do it here? Whatever you call it, the 'Winter Holiday' is of coming together, and if the name stops people feeling included, then scrap the name, call it the Winter Dragon Festival or something, and then everyone can be happy. It's a time of happiness, so if people aren't feeling happy, surely a small change that, looking at TJ's post, has already been somewhat put into effect, to make people feel more included.

 

I know after reading this thread I would feel horrible next christmas on DC knowing that so many people were left out :l

 

In summary: It's supposed to be a happy festival, if people aren't happy, just change the name, and people can interpret things as they like.

[Jazeki]

I had read through this last night, but the lag prevented me from replying. As such, I think if looking at the dragons and being reminded of Christian holidays is a problem, especially for the Christmas releases, then perhaps the names for each release could be changed to what their creators called them. There's nothing inherently Christmas-y about any of them (the names) to me. I think this was suggested in another thread.

 

Etymology and DC accuracy aside, I think these events should be left as is. They are the most "universal" of all the holidays and ones that everyone, regardless of religious affiliation, can participate in if they want to. If they don't want to, then that's up to them.

 

I think the important thing to remember is that this is Dragon Cave, not Religious Affiliation Cave and the focus should be on the dragons.

 

 

[Obscure_Trash]

Rudeness will not be tolerated. Users have been warned accordingly.

 

Please take off-topic discussion (spam here) about various authors' works and religions to PM or an appropriate thread. Further off-topic spam comments will receive a warning.

[shikaru]

As a kid, I never saw christmas as a distinctly religious thing (I lived with my mother who was never really overly religious, though she does believe in god), even when I was exposed to the christian elements, I focused more on the common spirit behind it. Just because a holiday started as one thing doesn't mean it can't be shaped into another (Most major holidays were, at their start, much different than what they are now, and even then they went through multiple changes).

 

The intent of the christmas, halloween, and valentines dragons was never to single out any belief or anything of the like, it was to give something special to members. No one here is telling you what to believe or not believe, and a the name of the holiday is just that: a name. I know a lot of atheists who celebrate christmas as a time to be with family; they don't give it any other name to call it by.

 

I think bringing religion (or a lackthereof) into the release of dragons isn't something that's necessary for a website like this.

Edited January 17, 2013 by shikaru

[mpolo]

Removed. See two posts up.

 

Getting back on topic, we have reached a period of human history where atheists are declaring that "Freedom of religion" means "Freedom FROM religion". And I think that has a lot to do with our problem here. Calling the dragon a Christmas Dragon and releasing it on Christmas is not forcing religion down anyone's throat, any more than a Solstice Dragon would be forcing people to take on an atheist mindset. Everybody is free to collect or not collect. What we're not free to do is try to create a world that contains no references whatsoever to religion. We should be willing to accept that there are expressions of religion that are endemic to our culture and language, even if the actual meaning has been lost. (Ladybugs are named for the Blessed Virgin Mary [Our Lady], for example, so ought to be causing as much protest as Christmas scenes on public property, actually.)

 

I'm not going to object if there is a Solstice dragon, or even if TJ changes the date of the winter release to the solstice. But I think that it is unnecessary. The cave is a big enough place that there can be dragons that you don't like and refuse to collect, and that's totally O.K. Only the Snow Angels have a remotely Christian nickname, so the whole complaint is really over a single statement that the dragons embody the "Spirit of Christmas". I can't see getting totally worked up about this. If TJ wants to make a Ramadan Dragon, I'm not going to complain. I may or may not collect it, of course, but it's just some pixels.

Edited January 17, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Thuban]

Ugh, I give up.

 

I'll just go take my atheism and exclusion and go suffer in silence, like everyone else forces me to do. I apologize if I offend your holiday with my filthy non-belief and want to try and make other people who feel the same as me not feel that way.

 

All I'm really seeing here is the same, "Ewwww, change! Kill it with fire!" mentality that I always see around here. Shouldn't be surprised at this point, really.

Ok, I'm going to try really really hard not to draw out a religious debate, but i may fail.

 

I'm not religious. I celebrate the commercial holidays. We go through the /motions/ of christmas because the family celebrates it and would be offended if we didnt bother showing up. We do haloween cause its pretty much the only acceptable time f the year you can cosplay anywhere you want without funny looks. Easter.. for us is a short, mildly uncomfortable visit to the very hard core Roman Catholic part of our family.. followed by candy and egg hunts. V-day.. we dont even bother with.

 

 

Despite the fact that I dont celebrate any of these properly, I still look forward to the events and releases.This years holiday event.. I wanted to go as far away from religion as possible. Most cultures, families.. religions have more family meals together. Winter is a guarenteed time where hanging out with the family. That was the main reason we went with the food event. Most people enjoy food.. either making it OR eating it. The option was provided for people to sneak in their favorite holiday treats, religious or not. Overallpeople seemed to enjoy the concept of food based event.. and there was no added drama of "my religion was left out" or "ewwww christan based meals". I tried very very hard to make sure that didnt happen.

 

Personally, I would be THRILLED to see the winter holidays worked outin a way that all sorts of religions are covered. Even my "fake pagan" one. I would love to see themes from other religions used for christmas dragon colors. The idea of a blue/silver white flamethrowing dragon.. actually grabs my attention. Im rather tired of red/green/white/gold themes. Bring on the kwanzza colored dragons.. or the hannuka colors. I would love to see more "non american" events happen too. Why? because they are fun to put together when we have enough people to do it AND because overall, the majority of our users enjoy events, whether they are based during religious periods or not.

 

I would love to see a "Happy everything, leave me alone until next year" dragon released. Pumpkins, sickly girly lovey dovey, scary mean faced dragons draped in tinsel. I can not fault anyone for what they do and do not celebrate. What you guys do is your own business, what you believe is your own business. The staff does work very very hard to NOT focus on the religious side of these holidays. Even tiny little details that normally dont stand out.. if we notice them.. arguements happen. We try to focus more on the idea of what the season is more than what the holiday itself is.

 

Do I agree with removing the holiday releases? No. Do i think perhaps some of our themes for said dragons should be changed? Sure. I am always happy that I can only have two of those holidays because more often than not.. they are too "that holiday" for my tastes. Do i value the work put into those dragons any less? absolutely not. The people who take the iniative to actually attempt to submit art for these holidays have my absolute respect, whether they arepicked to be used or not.

 

I have respect for your decision to be athiest. What bothers me though is the hypocracy that usually comes with it. Athiests dont like religion shoved in their face.. and religious types dont like being attacked by the athiests either. For me, the entire point of the winter holidays really breaks down to taking care of one another and being close to those you love. Holidays can be what you make them. I choose to ignore the religous side, and focus on the parts i enjoy.

 

 

Edit: Im sorry you guys took offense to the line i've removed. There wasnt anything specifically rude intended there. I would have preferred to be pm'd though if it was a problem.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Thuban