Posted March 25, 2013 Finally, with all the low timed eggs in the ap, I've been locked nearly all week. I have no idea how anyone has space to trade anyways. Amen to that, but who can resist? /hides scroll I think the metal surge helped but the timing was probably a bit off due to the shimmers. If there wasn't such nice bait for people to fight over, I think the metals would have been distributed a bit wider. The other is that a lot of people who got their first metals may have done so simply for a scroll goal, and may never breed or trade with them. And if they do, it may be a long, long time. I know when I got my first metal I bred it until I got both genders and all three hatchies. Trading wasn't an option until I got all that. That took me uh /peeks, about 2 years And that was with 2 golds to start. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Yes, I think if Shimmers weren't around, we'd have a lot more of "I want 40 CB thunders for my silver!" That'd be a real hoot. But yes, if there's two rare dragons that are wanted, they're going to swap between themselves. Honestly, if someone is capable of catching large amounts of metals (I've caught a lot myself), there isn't a whole lot other people can offer that you want or need. When someone asks me what I want for a trade, for instance, I am utterly stumped (so I rarely bother replying). I have neglecteds, I have tinsels, I have metals (of almost every sort), I have shimmers, I have almost every type of available CB dragon, and I know the value of things, so... that doesn't leave me a lot I can trade for that I could possibly need. I guess I can increase the strength of my armies, but IOUs for large amount of hatchlings are tedious for both parties and you're more likely to be scammed. Now, with shimmers... That gives you something you need to collect and CB metals give you the means to break into that very exclusive shimmer market. Edited March 25, 2013 by Pink Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 Yeah, I saw someone mention once they did a 60+ hatchy trade. That's excessive to me. May as well be multi-scrolling for the person >.< Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 Yeah, I saw someone mention once they did a 60+ hatchy trade. That's excessive to me. May as well be multi-scrolling for the person >.< What would bother me is that they have to tie up their scroll for such a long time (to raise 60+ hatchlings is going to take a couple weeks, at least), and you have to keep track of everything they send you. At some point they're going to start getting bored and maybe decide not to complete their payment. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) I wonder (to wonder is one of my favorite activities) if an official announcement (by TJ?) that the dropping rates will stay as they are (until, don't know, next year?) would calm down the "trading market." I think that uncertainty is causing many of the issues. Let's say that people that are now able to catch metallic CB want low-gen Shimmers, Tinsels and maybe Hollies for Christmas. They know that right now they can catch those metals and that right now they can trade for what they want. Not knowing if that will be true tomorrow, they catch a pile as big as possible to trade today. If they knew that they have, let's say until next year, to trade wouldn't they calm down? If there are less people offering because they know that they can offer next month or in three months, wouldn't the expectations of (i.e.) the owners of the Shimmers adapt? Edited March 25, 2013 by _Sin_ Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 I wonder (to wonder is one of my favorite activities) if an official announcement (by TJ?) that the dropping rates will stay as they are (until, don't know, next year?) would calm down the "trading market." I think that uncertainty is causing many of the issues. Let's say that people that are now able to catch metallic CB want low-gen Shimmers, Tinsels and maybe Hollies for Christmas. They know that right now they can catch those metals and that right now they can trade for what they want. Not knowing that if that will be true tomorrow, they catch a pile as big as possible to trade today. If they knew that they have, let's say until next year, to trade wouldn't they calm down? If there are less people offering because they know that they can offer next month or in three months, wouldn't the expectations of (i.e.) owners of the Shimmers adapt? Not really. I'm pretty sure that would just massively deflate the price or golds/silvers. There would be more distribution of those, sure, but shimmers would still be absurdly out of reach, so some other rare dragon would have to be established in order for those people to get what they want (or else they would only swap for other shimmers, likely). The rarity of shimmers would remain constant (although breeding will eventually bring this price down), but golds/silvers price would plummet. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 I understand your point. At the same time I'm not sure that to have the price of the Golds/Silvers plummet would be such a bad thing Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 I understand your point. At the same time I'm not sure that to have the price of the Golds/Silvers plummet would be such a bad thing It depends on whose perspective you look at it from. From the perspective of someone without one, sure, but once you get one, you have to realize it'll be worth virtually nothing for an unknown amount of time (because more CBs also means more bred, A LOT more bred ones). Maybe some years from now they could regain their value, but if they kept dropping at this rate for a year? Gold and silvers wouldn't be on the rare list anymore (everyone would want Blusangs instead. 0_o) Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) If there hadn't been such a high price set by people who could suddenly RIGHT NOW catch a lot of CB metals and who wanted to be sure to outbid everyone else and get a Shimmer RIGHT NOW (something most of DC has in common RIGHT NOW, lol), there wouldn't BE such a high price set on Shimmers. It was the circumstance and the price created by the almost perpetual previous drought of CB metals that caused the outrageous price of Shimmers to be set by the best catchers of outrageously-valued-because-of-near-extinction-for-so-long CB golds among the buyers. If we continue having a closer proportion of the various dragons Dropped and bred,, there will ultimately no longer be such a dichotomy between the values of various dragons, and things will gradually even out. The 'prices' of CB Blacks have dropped dramatically with accessibility and that of Gold dragons would have reduced as well, except for the cycle of extreme demand set up by 'buyers' for CB golds to get Shimmers, and for many CB Golds by various Shimmer 'sellers'. We have an out-of-control bubble-boom market up in the 'top levels' of 'commerce' here, which in RL would be headed for a crash - lucky this doesn't affect the price of dragon fodder, lol. Edit: I started reading from the bottom up and commented right away. Just now read Lyxii's analysis - applauds. Edited March 25, 2013 by Syphoneira Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) But that doesn't entirely make sense. Shimmers would still be outrageously priced, even if Golds and silver didn't exist at all. The fact is that they are rare enough within the cave, that the rarest dragons (which golds and silvers are perceived to be atm) are the only thing that can compete with them in value. If everyone wants a dragon, and that dragon happens to be from a unpopulated species, the owner will probably get 9 or 10 offers with the same "reasonable" offer. Whatever one is "most" reasonable will get taken, but the owner now knows they can get more for the egg. The inflation will keep going on until it reaches the ceiling and/or the egg is no longer as valued. We know the cave will go back to normal anyways because Shimmers will continually get more common (eventually reaching a nice sweet spot, like the tinsels did) and golds and silvers will get more rare. That's the lovely thing about ratios. But yes, in a way, it would be nice if the ratios could accommodate a lower success rate for breeding metals in the future and a higher drop rate instead. I know that's why we haven't had metals drop in any numbers for so long, because breeding has been the primary way people have gotten metals (because honestly it is easier to get metals that way). If say, breeding was capped, we'd have more CB metals AND they wouldn't lose their value as much (especially as the ratios stabilize). Of course, people would have a panic attack because metals would be difficult to breed. But, I see what you mean in a way. Their current value is very arbitrary. Golds and silvers are mainly artificially inflated in value by the "OHMYGAWD, SO RARE" factor that has arisen over the years because of their extremely low drop rates. However, we all know the DC economy has been a little odd since nearly the beginning. Things always seem to be out of whack in one way or the other. I love how I missed the entire discussion on supply-side economics. Edited March 25, 2013 by Pink Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 - Meanwhile, the hundreds and hundreds of other players out there, who aren't in the little circle of "wealthy" people with handfuls of rares, are left out of the loop and unable to trade. - Why? Because we have a few things going on: 1.) People who want the rares, but can't afford them, are still trying to trade for them while ignoring offers that are decent/match their trade values. Which then discourages other people from offering. 2.) What was once considered rare, is no longer. IE: Ratios are messed up and no one knows the values of anything anymore. (IE: Blacks and Stripes) 3.) The people who understand what the heck is going on are giving up trading because there is nothing they can do and are tired of the unbalance and frustration. I think that these are excellent points. The things I can breed have some value, but never get trade offers. So I drop them on the departures thread and they get grabbed in seconds… I have realized that there is no point in breeding any of my dragons for trade, simply because my best ones are lightyears below what is being offered/demanded in the threads. What if we had a trading thread that was only open to offer for people in the "middle class" or lower? Say, people who have less than 2 CB metallic eggs and no 2nd-gen prize eggs. Only these people would be allowed to post a trade request, although anyone could make an offer, of course. In the rain of rares, I caught quite a few CB blacks and even a single CB ice, and saw that metallics actually exist in the cave (before this I had seen exactly one in the cave over almost four years of playing). Of course, by the time I could catch CB blacks, they were no longer valuable. But at least I have some now. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 I have a CB female ND that I have asked for CB metals or 2-3 gen shimmers for. Is this too expensive now for ND's? I have gotten nothing, for hours. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 It seems like a fair trade to me. There just might not be anyone currently with CB metals/2-3 gen shimmers that wants/needs a neglected. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 i can say that trading nowadays is too costly it is nearly impossible to even get what we want with what we have what used to be rares are no longer consider as rares what used to be uncommons are becoming commons thus, trading value just goes up and up the hill to a ridiculous point sigh.......TJ needs to readjust it before the entire trading system dies Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 I find the posts about the blacks/stripes having lost trade value interesting as in the past I've seen many posts talking about not being able to get CBs of them and talking about them being common so they should be easier to get. So these commons seem to be getting more common which to me is the way it should be. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 i can say that trading nowadays is too costly it is nearly impossible to even get what we want with what we have what used to be rares are no longer consider as rares what used to be uncommons are becoming commons thus, trading value just goes up and up the hill to a ridiculous point sigh.......TJ needs to readjust it before the entire trading system dies While I can understand and sympathize with your concern for the trading system, I would like to point to the fact that only a very limited number of players is involved with that system. The majority of the players must be extremely happy with the changes on rarity since those allow them to add to their scrolls dragons that they were not able to catch until now. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) I find the posts about the blacks/stripes having lost trade value interesting as in the past I've seen many posts talking about not being able to get CBs of them and talking about them being common so they should be easier to get. So these commons seem to be getting more common which to me is the way it should be. See. This is something that I always wondered about a lot. They've always, -always- been listed as uncommon dragons, yet they never dropped as much as say...hellfires or nebulae...which are also listed as being uncommon. They also felt as though they dropped about the rate of a 'rare' would. It never felt right. Unless I just never saw them before due to how much value they had previously as trade fodder. It kinda put them in rare status and shoved golds and silvers into a kinda of ultra rare status. Having not had any in so long, I still value cb blacks. That's something I still want many more of. So I guess the value has only dropped for those looking to get into a higher tier of the market, aka, cb metals and shimmers. When these started dropping more, they lost their higher value to people when, gasp, just about anyone could pop up in the trade thread with them or go get them with only minimum effort involved. I'm happy to see those two uncommon dragons dropping like other uncommons. Edited March 25, 2013 by Bu-tan Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) There are tiers of rarity and there is almost no interaction between the tiers. At the moment: 1. 2nd gen prizes ~ 2nd gen hollies 1.5. Any shimmer 2. 3rd gen tinsels CB Golds = ~1.5 CB silver CB Silver Neglecteds 2nd gen thuweds 3. CB Blusang 2nd gen from spriter alts 4. anything else Honestly, you're probably all sick of hearing this, but shimmers are going to be completely worthless unless they are 3rd or 2nd gen; so DO NOT TRADE FOR A SHIMMER UNLESS YOU WANT TO PAY A LOT FOR NOTHING IN A FEW MONTHS. One of the problems is there is no interaction between tiers 1.5 and 1 and 3 and 4 currently At the cost of people being able to get CB dragons more easily, the assets that people used to own e.g. CB stripes, CB blacks and CB metals no longer produce offspring worth much at all. So the only current breeding assets are low gen hollies, 2nd gen tinsels and shimmers; there is a shift towards catchers in the current market. The only way to stop the trading inflation is to bridge the gap between 1 and the other tiers. However, there is another cost. If there are more 2nd gen prizes in circulation the same thing that happened to every single other rare will happen to prizes. They will be worth nothing and only CB prizes will be put in demand. If you makes CB prizes worth nothing, then ONLY 2nd gens from spriters alts and thuweds will be worth anything. Because the instant something ceases becoming ultra rare, human nature invents something else to take its place; no one's interests/needs in this game will ever be entirely fulfilled. Edited March 25, 2013 by DarkEternity Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 Asking for 2nd gen Shimmers for one ND is insane. No 2nd gen Shimmer owner is going to trade for an ND. I'm sure they got all the NDs they needed when they first got their shimmers and started trades. As for other trades...why the heck can't I get trades for MOONSTONES!? Are these somehow rare now or just hard to find because of the new AP thing? Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 Asking for 2nd gen Shimmers for one ND is insane. No 2nd gen Shimmer owner is going to trade for an ND. I'm sure they got all the NDs they needed when they first got their shimmers and started trades. As for other trades...why the heck can't I get trades for MOONSTONES!? Are these somehow rare now or just hard to find because of the new AP thing? Possibly because everyone is reserving their scroll space for used-to-be-rares e.g. CB stripes, CB blacks, bred metals Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 Possibly because everyone is reserving their scroll space for used-to-be-rares e.g. CB stripes, CB blacks, bred metals This. Pretty much. The metal rush is causing people to snag-n-drop commons to either help clear the cave to try for uncommons or to try and get the rares to drop. I was in the same boat up until last night. There is currently no backlash for just clearing a biome and dropping into the AP right now. I've said before that the boom has caused just about everything in Dark's Tier 4 Trading Circuit to pretty much grind to a hault as people are trying to jump into higher trading tiers. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 Lol, this place is supposed to be about raising, catching, breeding, gifting and trading for dragons you want. It isn't supposed to be about making a huge 'profit' via continual trading, but about getting dragons. The dragons are here to be collected - not as a source of value to be assigned as a means of what you can get for one. Trading is a part of playing here - but lately it's been turning into Wall St. and we're developing the same type of almost feudal economy being imposed on the rest of the world by the few haves managing to collect most of what's going. (It's a collection game - the fastest are going to catch the mostest and that's not the issue. The issue is with what's happened to the game and the psychological direction in which we're being skewed.) The peons can sometimes labour raising multiple common hatchies for what they want from the haves, but what they may need to continue a lineage to breed for gifting is a valuable trade commodity and therefor snapped up at the instant of appearance by dedicated hunters they can't compete with. So they can't really 'catch them all' on their own, not having fast puters/connections/reflexes - and not being determined to catch 10 CB Golds in 3 days for a single trade. We didn't have this situation with the Tinsels, even though we all wanted them NAOW. Yes, Shimmers will be hard to obtain for some time, but then they won't be, although low-gens will still be valued higher. But if we had less disparity in rarity within the ratios of different dragons than we've had for so long and no fabulous prices obtained by the few capable of catching them, we wouldn't maintain this degree of frenzy in the catching specifically for trading of metallics. Everyone would have a chance, at some reasonable time, and with reasonable effort, of gaining virtually every dragon on their own. Right now in Suggestions there's a thread promoting the concept of special biomes which would be exclusive, according to various suggestions by commenters, to various degrees, creating a permanent degree of monopoly of access within the very fabric of DC, where only people achieving certain (variously suggested) goals could enter special biomes to get what would be new but 'common' dragons only Dropped there, which could be traded at huge prices by those with entry to those without, those who could not otherwise get them and would have no chance to catch them until fulfilling the criteria which, according to various suggestions, could take anywhere from weeks to months to a year or more, the actual time given being minimum and also depending upon all other DC dragon activity being dropped to fulfill these requirements. The people suggesting this expect to instantly qualify themselves, and have a steady trade source of exclusive dragons together with a steady supply source of have-nots who will do anything to get these exclusive dragons, common for the haves, and otherwise unobtainable, except through 'charity', by the not-qualified. This is an extension of our current circumstance which will do away with the old DC. I personally feel it's essential to correct the disparity between dragon accessibility among sprites so that trade value no longer represents the main point of the dragons we collect, and simply go back to trading as we once did for what we wanted and for fun, something which involves far fewer changes for and to DC than continuing down the path we're being steered toward. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 trading here is indeed like wall street i never thought that it would be that hard when i first join the forum even after a few weeks of calculating, i still think that the inflation rate is way higher than expected i agree with DarkEternity's view on the tiers that is a very interesting way of thinking of the rarity helps a lot Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 It's incredible how many CB metals are being traded I'm puzzled and hate the fact that i know that in a week the metals are going to be G-O-N-E Share this post Link to post
Posted March 25, 2013 What we need is something that can fulfill the space between tiers. And we already have that - if more people appreciated lineages the trading differences could be smaller. But, for that to happen, we would need push from rich players. If they asked for lineages again, and again, people would start to perceive them as more valuable then CBs and would in turn start making their own and try trading with them. Right now, lineages are just something to spend your time on and then gift to other people. Share this post Link to post
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