ANSWERED:Raffle Rethink?

[Fuzzbucket]

You can "earn" a prize by just participating. You could get an "award" in school for not being tardy just by showing up on time; and one for attendance by never being off sick....

[xeyla]

I support the extra prizes given out. 30 prize dragons is not a good enough ratio for a game that has hundreds of players.

[Reidragon]

I support the extra prizes given out. 30 prize dragons is not a good enough ratio for a game that has hundreds of players.

Maybe not but in the end it is Tj's decision and really as Dolphinsong pointed out he doesn't have to do the event at all. I personally am happy for whatever number given out.

 

Eventually they will trickle down to us even if it does take some time. The tinsels did :3

[Lythiaren]

Very unhappy with the idea in here that a prize dragon is "wasted" by not being bred. And even though no one said it outright, it's still a very obvious boldfaced implication in this push to make sure that all prize winners are people who can be expected to use them generously as baby machines for people on the forums. Since people here seem so keen on this idea that most of last year's winners must have quit because so few of them have turned up toting their babies on the forums as trade fodder, I pose this question to you: how the heck do you know that most of them quit? No, really. Please do link us to a forum post in which TJ himself cites internal statistics of the last login times and applicable ban status of all last year's prize winners. If no such post exists I'm just going to put a big fat [citation needed] on your post.

 

Favouritism was a major factor in 2010. People were posting screenshots of their trees all over the place begging everyone to give them a 10 if they saw them. And people on the forums knew the most about the contest, without question; all the information was posted here, in English. So people who weren't on the forums didn't see it. Non-English speakers would have difficulty understanding it. Non-forumgoers only knew by hearing about it from people who saw the announcements here. So most of the votes came from the forum and went to forumgoers, especially after all the screenshot spam and begging, and the random voting system, which was meant to distribute the votes fairly, stopped functioning as it was intended as a result.

 

But in 2011 we decided we'd had enough of that crap and discussed the idea of a raffle. TJ decided to go with it because randomized raffles by their nature are fair in that everyone gets the same opportunity to get the same number of tickets and once you've hit your upper limit you can't skew it in your favor anymore without breaking rules. And we decided to make it fair to all users by making the ticket requirements as easy as possible. Anyone will tell you that forumgoers represent a very tiny non-representative sample of the playerbase. Know what that means? It means that with a fair and even distribution, most of the winners will not be on the forum. Most of them will not care about trading their babies to people they don't know, especially on a forum that has a reputation for some of the blackest vitriol in the world of pixel adoptables and a floor that might as well be made of lint, that's how fast fires start here.

 

And now we have this event that once again skews the results in favor of forumgoers who have access to the various compiled recipe lists and spreadsheets, and those other players who enjoy either Harvest Moon cooking or point and click adventure games that have convoluted puzzles that are often solved by patiently rubbing everything in your inventory on everything else. Rest assured that most of the prizes this year will be forumgoers again, if only because participating in this event has been such a massive unintuitive pain that a lot of people wouldn't have touched it with a pole if it didn't come with the possibility of a prize win. I've had a lot of complaints thrown at me about how things you make aren't infinite (though you can make infinite amounts of it so ?????), how there was no way to remove misclicked ingredients, and how frustrating it was to have everything blow up in your face just because you wanted to make dough by combining flour and water.

 

I'm with Corona on this one. If I win a CB I'm going to make a point to not breed it ever. Just to trollface all of you.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Psykotika]

You can "earn" a prize by just participating. You could get an "award" in school for not being tardy just by showing up on time; and one for attendance by never being off sick....

As anyone who's ever attended school of any kind knows, these things are not exactly easy to get. Not being tardy means waking up on time every morning regardless of physical or mental state, or the events of a previous evening, and forging on into whatever situation good, or bad, may await one at a school institution. Also, it takes this commitment every day for an entire school year (by your example). The same with taking no sick days. I can easily draw a parallel between this and the time and effort anyone with a trophy level has put into dragcave to achieve that level. Technically, everyone on dragcave is 'just participating' by raising their dragons, what they would have done normally anyway. Just like someone in school would normally go to school. No?

 

Also support more prizes given.

 

@Lyth - Also that's not trolling, that's just more of that black vitriol you were speaking of. However if you won a prize and did not breed it, that would, of course, be your decision of what to do with your dragon, and nothing to do with me, or anyone else (though I know some would take it personally, and that is unfortunate).

Edited December 29, 2012 by Psykotika

[whitebaron]

A raffle is only fair when everyone has the same chances to win, regardless of joining date. Favoristism has nothing to do with fairness.

that's a completely invalid assumption that only sounds nice.

 

a raffle has entry conditions, and if those are different, it still is fai.

 

Else, you should request that every holiday dragon i don't have a cb (before lurkers), every retired dragon i don't have (frill, pink) should be purged from the site.

Why? Because it isn't fair that i can't get them anymore. Logic sounds weird? Yes, to me too. Saying that limiting Raffles to older players isn't fair, is more of the same weird argument.

 

Overall, as a newer player, I find it crazy as hell that oldtime players argue for my sake, without knowing anymore how newer players DO feel about it.

[Fuzzbucket]

Very unhappy with the idea in here that a prize dragon is "wasted" by not being bred. And even though no one said it outright, it's still a very obvious boldfaced implication in this push to make sure that all prize winners are people who can be expected to use them generously as baby machines for people on the forums. Since people here seem so keen on this idea that most of last year's winners must have quit because so few of them have turned up toting their babies on the forums as trade fodder, I pose this question to you: how the heck do you know that most of them quit? No, really. Please do link us to a forum post in which TJ himself cites internal statistics of the last login times and applicable ban status of all last year's prize winners.

 

Favouritism was a major factor in 2010. People were posting screenshots of their trees all over the place begging everyone to give them a 10 if they saw them. And people on the forums knew the most about the contest, without question; all the information was posted here, in English. So people who weren't on the forums didn't see it. Non-English speakers would have difficulty understanding it. Non-forumgoers only knew by hearing about it from people who saw the announcements here. So most of the votes came from the forum and went to forumgoers, especially after all the screenshot spam and begging, and the random voting system, which was meant to distribute the votes fairly, stopped functioning as it was intended as a result.

 

But in 2011 we decided we'd had enough of that crap and discussed the idea of a raffle. TJ decided to go with it because randomized raffles by their nature are [/i]fair[/i] in that everyone gets the same opportunity to get the same number of tickets and once you've hit your upper limit you can't skew it in your favor anymore without breaking rules. And we decided to make it fair to all users by making the ticket requirements as easy as possible. Anyone will tell you that forumgoers represent a very tiny non-representative sample of the playerbase. Know what that means? It means that with a fair and even distribution, most of the winners will not be on the forum. Most of them will not care about trading their babies to people they don't know, especially on a forum that has a reputation for some of the blackest vitriol in the world of pixel adoptables and a floor that might as well be made of lint, that's how fast fires start here.

 

And now we have this event that once again skews the results in favor of forumgoers who have access to the various compiled recipe lists and spreadsheets, and those other players who enjoy either Harvest Moon cooking or point and click adventure games that have convoluted puzzles that are often solved by patiently rubbing everything in your inventory on everything else. Rest assured that most of the prizes this year will be forumgoers again.

 

And I'm with Corona on this one. If I win a CB I'm going to make a point to not breed it ever. Just to trollface all of you.

QFT. The infighting and begging over those trees was horrid.

 

And it isn't THAT hard to get up most mornings, Psykotika. I absolutely agree that everyone here is participating by being here. That's why I support the idea of everyone being able to be entered in the raffle as long as they do whatever buys a ticket that year - which in this occasion is baking weird things.

 

@whitebaron (cross posted) a raffle is open to EVERYONE. That is the POINT. A raffle is a game of chance. Anyone with a ticket has an equal chance to win.

A raffle is a gambling competition in which people obtain numbered tickets, each ticket having the chance of winning a prize. At a set time, the winners are drawn from a container holding a copy of every number. The drawn tickets are checked against a collection of prizes with numbers attached to them, and the holder of the ticket wins the prize.

 

A competition is the thing that isn't.

Edited December 29, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[milkaq66]

Well, perhaps we should be grateful, that there is a raffle (and a brandnew prize) at all?

All this complaining might lead TJ to the conclusion, that it´s not worth the trouble.

 

As for the Goldtrophys: i think it´s not only newbies that aren´t stuffing their scroll with each an every kind of dragons, they might as well have completly different scrollgoals.

Should they really be at a disadvantage in the raffle?You can´t tell the players how to play the game, this is what i thought until now...

 

Please, be aware that i´m not a native English speaker, so there might be errors...

Edited December 29, 2012 by milkaq66

[schmupti]

I don't care if you win and don't breed.

I don't care if you win and get bored in a year and leave.

I don't care if you win and hide your prize from the world.

 

But I DO care if you don't care and leave as soon as you win.

On the flip side, I DON'T care if you win and leave as soon as you win. It's not my place to decide if you're 'worthy' of your randomly selected prize.

 

While it's a bummer not to have won, trying to declare previous winners unworthy because they didn't stick around/play often enough/breed often enough/etc. suggests that we feel entitled to that prize, and if we don't get it, they at least owe it to us to prove that they properly appreciate it.

 

They don't. They don't owe us anything. It's a prize, not a promise.

[Lythiaren]

On the flip side, I DON'T care if you win and leave as soon as you win. It's not my place to decide if you're 'worthy' of your randomly selected prize.

 

While it's a bummer not to have won, trying to declare previous winners unworthy because they didn't stick around/play often enough/breed often enough/etc. suggests that we feel entitled to that prize, and if we don't get it, they at least owe it to us to prove that they properly appreciate it.

 

They don't. They don't owe us anything. It's a prize, not a promise.

^ My opinion in a nutshell.

 

Breeding != appreciating your prize.

 

It's just reaping the benefits of possessing a prize. If anything it's exploitation rather than appreciation.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Reidragon]

On the flip side, I DON'T care if you win and leave as soon as you win. It's not my place to decide if you're 'worthy' of your randomly selected prize.

 

While it's a bummer not to have won, trying to declare previous winners unworthy because they didn't stick around/play often enough/breed often enough/etc. suggests that we feel entitled to that prize, and if we don't get it, they at least owe it to us to prove that they properly appreciate it.

 

They don't. They don't owe us anything. It's a prize, not a promise.

A thousand times this.

[Fuzzbucket]

On the flip side, I DON'T care if you win and leave as soon as you win. It's not my place to decide if you're 'worthy' of your randomly selected prize.

 

While it's a bummer not to have won, trying to declare previous winners unworthy because they didn't stick around/play often enough/breed often enough/etc. suggests that we feel entitled to that prize, and if we don't get it, they at least owe it to us to prove that they properly appreciate it.

 

They don't. They don't owe us anything. It's a prize, not a promise.

True. Same thing as no-one gets to determine anyone else's play style.

[whitebaron]

@whitebaron (cross posted) a raffle is open to EVERYONE. That is the POINT. A raffle is a game of chance. Anyone with a ticket has an equal chance to win.

please check your facts. a raffle is by no definition open to everyone, it can be, but it mustn't be. private raffles are most likely more common than public ones, with many being held in rather small, private audiences, like sports clubs doing a xmas raffle for their members, or even just to decide which kid of yours gets the one last yellow candy.

 

 

it's not unfair to have any limitations on entering a raffle. it's just what it is, a limitation, most of the time based on a common assumption. if you ever turn up at our xmas raffle at the sports club, you'll likely be thrown out, or maybe just laughed at. the base assumption on dc is: you have to be a dc player.

 

i fully support this assumption.

i partially support the assumption that a player who has not yet won his bronze trophy is already a part of DC. hes not. it's like a one time visitor who trains two weeks with you. membership has to be earned, be it here or anywhere else in the world. bronze trophy is a good way to do this.

[Lythiaren]

i partially support the assumption that a player who has not yet won his bronze trophy is already a part of DC. hes not. it's like a one time visitor who trains two weeks with you. membership has to be earned, be it here or anywhere else in the world. bronze trophy is a good way to do this.

Wait wait.

 

So being a user on DC, by possessing an account and everything, and participating in a holiday event hoping to win the prize at the end, is not sufficient criteria to be... considered a user on DC?

 

What is this I don't even.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Lythiaren

[athdaraxen]

I'm definitely with the people don't have to breed their prizes side. >_>

 

While not said straight up, I keep getting the vibe that apparently Prize winners MUST breed, which is ridiculous. As many have said before me, who says I HAVE to breed a prize (if by some miracle I ever got one).

Don't get me wrong I probably would breed as I enjoy breeding my 2nd gen Gold Tinsel for odd requests (like random easy to get CB stuff), or for free. It's fun for me but things like this makes me sad. I don't want to feel obligated to do anything.

 

Also on the note of the missing Tinsels, correct me if I'm wrong but did the prize winners have the choice between a Tinsel or whatever dragon they wanted? So maybe the missing ones are people who didn't want them? If I remember right, if you didn't want it it got passed down or something like that, maybe nobody wanted them? (for my own curiosity here!)

Edited December 29, 2012 by athdaraxen

[Snowytoshi]

I do not think that there is a need for more tickets to those who have been here longer or have more dragons in the raffle. If someone wins then it is their choice whether they want to breed it or not. maybe they don't even go on the forums and would rather just gift to a few friends or maybe to no one. There are enough winners that even if no one is on the forums the prizes will be bred eventually. And even if the raffles are 'fixed' so that older users are more likely to win, there is no gurantee those users will stay for more then a year. People get bored, things happen in their own lives, etc.

 

We can all debate and try to decide which users are more deserving. I know I'd like my chances to be higher, but you know what? If a user who doesn't go on the forums wins, then why should we make it so they can't or that their chances are slimmer? Even if it doesn't help you (either because they won't be on in a year or because they rarely breed) it might mean something to them and I don't see why we should be making our raffle choices based on the chances we'll get an egg. It's their prize, not your's.

[Fuzzbucket]

please check your facts. a raffle is by no definition open to everyone, it can be, but it mustn't be. private raffles are most likely more common than public ones, with many being held in rather small, private audiences, like sports clubs doing a xmas raffle for their members, or even just to decide which kid of yours gets the one last yellow candy.

 

 

it's not unfair to have any limitations on entering a raffle. it's just what it is, a limitation, most of the time based on a common assumption. if you ever turn up at our xmas raffle at the sports club, you'll likely be thrown out, or maybe just laughed at. the base assumption on dc is: you have to be a dc player.

 

i fully support this assumption.

i partially support the assumption that a player who has not yet won his bronze trophy is already a part of DC. hes not. it's like a one time visitor who trains two weeks with you. membership has to be earned, be it here or anywhere else in the world. bronze trophy is a good way to do this.

OK - everyone with the facility to buy (or whatever) a ticket has an equal chance. There is no JUDGING involved. EVERYONE who plays on DC can enter this year's if they like. Anyone who comes to our choir party can buy a ticket for the one we run there.

 

Anyone who has a licence to run a raffle can sell a ticket to anyone they like, in the UK at least. The issue is the right to run one, not who you can sell tickets to - though yes, private ones can be restrictive if they choose. But in general, here, the only limit is the legal one on age of participants. If a prize is a bottle of whisky, you may not sell a ticket to a minor, for instance !

 

I've run several.

[whitebaron]

Wait wait.

 

So being a user on DC, by possessing an account and participating in a holiday event, is not sufficient criteria to be... considered a user on DC?

 

What is this I don't even.

if someone shows up on your local sports, say tennis club, to play a round.

would you consider him a member or not? If he then goes with you to the xmas-party afterwards and demands to be in the members-only raffle, what would happen?

 

most clubs have tryouts or trial phases, i see bronze trophy on dc as the same, since you just cannot say, "paid an entry fee" on a free site.

 

admission has to be earned to almost every club or community in the world, with the exception being really public places, that are not common at all. Or you have to pay entry fees to get in.

[olympe]

Well, perhaps we should be grateful, that there is a raffle (and a brandnew prize) at all?

All this complaining might lead TJ to the conclusion, that it´s not worth the trouble.

I'd rather have no prize dragons at all than prize dragons only those people can get offspring of that are either very good clickers to begin with - which already puts them at a great enough advantage, or those who have the best connections. Seriously, I'd be happier without prize dragons of any kind, seeing as people ask for outrageous prizes for their prize dragons' offspring which I'll never be able to meet in 100 years. But that might just be me and a tiny minority.

[Dolphinsong]

I'd rather have no prize dragons at all than prize dragons only those people can get offspring of that are either very good clickers to begin with - which already puts them at a great enough advantage, or those who have the best connections. Seriously, I'd be happier without prize dragons of any kind, seeing as people ask for outrageous prizes for their prize dragons' offspring which I'll never be able to meet in 100 years. But that might just be me and a tiny minority.

Same could be said about the spriter alts' children, we can easily ask for an arm and a leg for them and yet, we don't. Just because a few does doesn't mean we all have that mindset.

[Reidragon]

Wait wait.

 

So being a user on DC, by possessing an account and everything, and participating in a holiday event hoping to win the prize at the end, is not sufficient criteria to be... considered a user on DC?

 

What is this I don't even.

Exactly. I don't even understand this logic :/

 

Scroll and participating in the event does not count as membership? Please explain this to me. If they went through the effort to complete the recipes and enter I do not see why under any circumstances they should not be allowed their chance at a dragon no matter if they joined that day or a year from now.

 

I don't see why anyone should be obligated to do anything on a game that we all play for free and is supposed to be enjoyable as that users sees to enjoy it.

 

Dragoncave is not a competition nor an obligation of any sort. Nor do I believe should it be treated as one.

[Lythiaren]

if someone shows up on your local sports, say tennis club, to play a round.

would you consider him a member or not? If he then goes with you to the xmas-party afterwards and demands to be in the members-only raffle, what would happen?

 

most clubs have tryouts or trial phases, i see bronze trophy on dc as the same, since you just cannot say, "paid an entry fee" on a free site.

 

admission has to be earned to almost every club or community in the world, with the exception being really public places, that are not common at all. Or you have to pay entry fees to get in.

Last I checked anyone with a computer and Internet access was allowed to make a DC account. They signed up, put in their email and everything. Your scroll is your membership card. They are members of this site. Telling people they're too new to be allowed to shoot for a CB prize just because they don't have enough points is not only elitist but also needlessly restrictive when the event is about having fun.

 

I could just as easily post up a thread demanding that raffle prizes should only be awarded based on time spent on site and contribution to artistic assets and make a bunch of arguments about how I'm ~*obviously*~ devoted to the site so I ~*deserve*~ to win. I'm sure that would go over well. Oh wait.

 

Lythtacular sassiness aside, if I brought a friend to a club and they got mocked and chased out like you claim a sports club would, I wouldn't be a member of that club after such an evening either. There's fun events and then there's needless cruelty. What the heck do I need to show my credentials for? This isn't a job application, it's a bloody Christmas raffle.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Fuzzbucket]

if someone shows up on your local sports, say tennis club, to play a round.

would you consider him a member or not? If he then goes with you to the xmas-party afterwards and demands to be in the members-only raffle, what would happen?

 

most clubs have tryouts or trial phases, i see bronze trophy on dc as the same, since you just cannot say, "paid an entry fee" on a free site.

 

admission has to be earned to almost every club or community in the world, with the exception being really public places, that are not common at all. Or you have to pay entry fees to get in.

I'd let him buy a ticket - sure.

 

EARNING admission is not a concept I appreciate. I am all for open admission as long as you fulfil the criteria set for admission.

 

Here, that is supplying a valid email address and agreeing to the ToS, basically. For a choir that may mean being able to read music. For many tennis clubs - that may just mean paying the fees - you don't even have to PLAY ONCE. You can join a gym by paying a sub and never lift a finger again.

[whitebaron]

Telling people they're too new to be allowed to shoot for a CB prize is not only elitist but also needlessly restrictive when the event is about having fun.

an event with prizes that are more rare than even the rarest of dragons except spriters's alts?

 

if you call this "just fun", then your perception of this event is seriously screwed. yes, some people just have fun. many also just go through what they see as a hassle just to be able to have a shot at those prizes.

 

if its about fun, there should be no prizes connected. it would be a lot more about the fun then, to give a ticket to say, everyone who raised a dragon in xmas week, and let the event be just that - fun.

 

I for one know, that i would never have bothered to get all those recipes. I'd probably be in this forum here, and request there be an opt-out button for those annoying recipes that are displayed on my scroll. As I ever only clicked those Halloween icons because they were disrupting my catching.

 

[xeyla]

Seriously, I'd be happier without prize dragons of any kind, seeing as people ask for outrageous prizes for their prize dragons' offspring which I'll never be able to meet in 100 years. But that might just be me and a tiny minority.

I would not be like that. I have a very nice Holly that I have made a list for, in return for nothing. If I won a CB prize dragon, I would most likely gift my offspring, after I got my first CB Gold dragon. I would glomp my friends first, then glomp some newbies and other people I have had pleasant dealings with as a way of saying thank you for being my friend. I currently gift any CB Silvers I catch to newbies, and trios also.