What makes games more interesting than school?

[AsheraAshtoreth]

Hi there,

here at my workplace we currently are planning a project on gamification of learning environments.

There are mainly two starting points for this:

- One is the observation that kids, youths and even adults invest more time in gaming than learning

- Another one is the idea, that if learning were more like gaming more people would learn something.

 

We are quite at the start and obviously there's a lot of literature and discussion that games are time-stealers and generally bad for everyone. But there's little to no discussion on why people choose games over school and learning. Or maybe you learn something by gaming?

 

So I'd really like to start up a discussion to all you kids - but also youngsters, adults and parents out there, what's your opinion.

Why do you rather play than learn? Do you learn something by playing and what would that be? What makes gaming so much more interesting than school or learning? And - if you like - how much time do you spend on games in a week?

And finally: Do you thing a gamificated learning would be a better learning?

 

I am really interested in all sorts of opinions

[catstaff]

Speaking as a 40-something year old mother and as someone who's been playing RPGs for almost 25 years...

 

I believe that some kinds of games (not all kinds) encourage learning in several ways.

 

RPGs done properly can teach problem solving, cooperation, and strategy, plus they can be used as a vehicle for teaching reading, math, and possibly science and history depending on the game/genre.

 

Card games can teach math and possibly strategy and problem solving.

 

Board games can encourage reading, math, diplomacy, and possibly science and history depending on the game/genre.

 

Speaking for myself, I have yet to see any sort of good lessons to be learned in first-person shooter style video games, save possibly the chance to improve one's eye-hand coordination. And I can think of much better ways to do that.

 

As to why people choose games over school... my thought is that it's a matter of feeling obligated or coerced into doing something as opposed to freely choosing to do it. I enjoy reading to the point that I specifically choose my purse to be large enough to carry a couple of books with me at all times. Yet I can remember back when I was in school, absolutely hating to read half of the required reading, even when it was a book I enjoyed, simply because it was handed to me and I was told to read it, instead of me picking the book off a shelf in the library and choosing to read it.

[5icky]

I'm sixteen. Though school is awesome, it can be very dramatic besides the learning, and there is much more extra work involved in school. Not to say it's bad, but can you simply pause school and save your place so you can play video games? i think not, but you have to pause games to go to school....

 

I have been obsessed with Skyrim since it came out last year, i got to play it for three months before my sister scratched the disk dooming it to a horrid life of only title screen and no play...

Just got skyrim again yesterday, and stayed up until 2am playing..... it's tuesday

[NixAyum]

I think a lot of it is the forced vs. chosen idea.

 

School is required in most places and it has a bad reputation before one even starts. It's boring, a waste of time, too hard, too easy, too strict, inefficient, etc. There are people there making you do things you might not want to do. Practically every aspect of school-going life, from your sleep to what you eat and wear is dictated by your school's schedule, requirements, resources, staff, etc.

 

Games, though, are all about choice and entertainment and style and control. You can do RPGs, FPSs, puzzle games, any type of game. They're entertainment, marketed as fun and everyone likes games because they feel like freedom. Yes, some games will make you do things you find boring but it's acceptable because one can either walk away and pick up a different game or accept it and grind through because there is strictly no other way around it. Contrast with school where if you get something you don't like, you can't just drop it, or, you can try to worm your way around/out of it.

 

Games also require less effort, partially because there isn't the whole exasperated act of "I hate this I don't want to be here I just want to go home this is boring" people often have in school environments. With games, you're more inclined to /want/ to pay attention to the lots of sensory input we're used to in this modern world whereas in school there's a lot of "stop fidgeting, pay attention, be quiet" pressure that can leave a person bored or even begrudging.

 

There's also instant gratification. We generally have little patience, especially younger people, and games are pretty instant. Loot, experience, constant upgrades, completionism are all much easier to achieve in a game than in school. You have to wait for grades, you have to mull over information to absorb it, you have to invest in learning for years for it to have major tangible rewards (and even then, sometimes it STILL doesn't), whereas with games, if you jump into the pit when Wheatley asks you nicely, you'll always get that achievement. (/Portal 2 reference sorry I'm not sorry)

 

Learning games are growing in popularity, iirc, considering games like Brain Trainer (for DS?) and other ones that claim to improve mental flexibility/strength or memory. Games have also been used in teaching for probably as long as there has been learning; look at any game section in a major store and count how many infant/toddler/preschool/whatever items there are. Lots of games are cleverly disguised learning tools.

[AsheraAshtoreth]

Hi, thanks for your answers so far. The "games are freedom" aspect is new, we have not thought about that yet. But it really makes a lot of sense. And thanks for the metaphor, that you can not pause school. This one is just great. Maybe a pausable school would be better - but then how can you pause an instructor

 

So does anyone of you actually use videos from Khan Academy

http://www.khanacademy.org/

Or has any experience with learning using lego "Build to express" like these here: http://education.lego.com/en-us/lego-educa...dtoexpress-set/

 

And what do you think of those forms of learning?

 

Oh and I would really look forward to more opinions from people around here onto what makes games better/different from school.

[Syaoransbear]

Games are interactive, whereas with school you are being talked at for a solid hour about things you usually don't find interesting.

 

My biggest problem with school is that most of the time it is a complete waste of time. I have a literature class where it feels like the professor just reads us the book the entire class. Huge waste of time. So I skip it.

 

I once played a game called Parasite Eve. It was all about mitochondria and I learned more about biology in that game than I did in all of high school.

 

Another problem with school is the things you learn aren't immediately useful. School is just a process of retaining knowledge long enough so that you can regurgitate it for the final exam, then you can go ahead and forget all of it.

 

In video games if you aren't paying attention you might miss huge pieces of the story and get lost or confused. Knowledge learned in video games is immediately useful because you need it to get farther in the game. You actually use that knowledge to think and make decisions instead of just transferring what the teacher said onto your test.

[lulubelle00]

In games, you (for the most part) have the freedom to do what you want. If someone was to put a pokemon game in my hands and told me to play it, I wouldn't enjoy it even though I love pokemon.

[dragonsrus]

I am a father of 2 children. I have played games since the original Atari became available and I was a straight A student in grade school, high school & college. I logged many hours into gaming (especially RPGs) and school so I feel that this is a great subject to discuss.

 

I personally love games that cause you to think or learn something. One of my favorite games to play in grade school was Where In The World Is Carmen San Diego? (Absolutely wonderful for teaching/learning geography!!!)

 

I don't own any first person shooting games of any type because I don't want my children to grow up thinking it's okay to shoot a person for entertainment. I don't feel that these types of games teach anything but hand eye coordination.

 

I do believe that games can be a great tool in teaching/learning. Some children/adults are better visual learners than they are audio learners. For example I have a cousin that is in Fifth grade that until this year had a very severe learning disability regarding reading. She was at about a Second grade level in reading. She could watch a program on Animal Planet and tell you in full detail what happened on the show, but she couldn't remember anything she read even when she read it out loud to us. The teachers tested her for different disabilities including ADD and dyslexia but they never could find a problem. Then a teacher decided to try something, she took color coded transparent book-markers and had her read out loud again. My cousin was amazed by how much she could remember after reading with the yellow transparent book-marker. My long winded point is that teaching games CAN be a great tool for children that are visual learners.

 

Now as to WHY I chose to play games over schoolwork is three-fold. One reason I chose to play games over schoolwork was simply because it was more fun to play a video game than to study. Secondly I felt it was less stressful or it was a way to relieve stress (obviously not ALL games are less stressful). Thirdly, playing video games was an escape from reality. It was a way to close my mind from everything that was happening around me and allowed me to focus on accomplishing a task or goal.

 

Hope this is what you are looking for Ashera

[TikindiDragon]

I know some people that will play games they're not actually enjoying all that much because they want to get the achievments for them. One wonders if a more 'achievement' based teaching style - where rewards are given for small milestones and sucesses - might engage children more than ephemeral ideas of 'this will help when you are older' that are usually attached to the concept of grades.

[futuregohangurl]

believe they are more interesting because RPGs tell a story that is complex and usually sad plus the game is very fun because of being able to fight and use magic and the reason the other games are fun is because they are just addicting

[Kyrieath]

I'm an adult and I've always preferred games to school; many reasons I agree with have been covered by others already, so I'll just hit on a particular one.

 

Freedom in who you spend your time with.

 

School houses some great memories for some people; for others, it was an absolute nightmare. While social interaction is something all people must learn, school is not the best place to learn it for some children.

 

Before the internet- children chose who they played games with for the most part. They might choose to play alone, with a friend or family as they saw fit and if they were not in the mood to play, they didn't have to. There was no teacher on hand to penalize them for not playing what was intended to be fun but just wasn't their thing. (Here's looking at you, gym teachers.)

 

In the advent of the internet, social interaction became more broad spread and they could start finding other people to connect to who actually liked the same things they did and that they could relate to.

 

With public schools especially becoming steadily less safe, the ability to choose who you spend your time with is becoming even more precious.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Kyrieath

[armadillosushi]

I believe that we can learn from games, we can design buildings on games like Minecraft and meet people in chatrooms and forums. but although many people like the easy acheivements, it makes us unprepared for real life, because we expect a reward for doing practically nothing instead of working hard towards a goal

[demonicvampiregirl]

Like Nix said I think it's because gaming is a option. Over all I have always preferred gaming as school was boring. The teachers would tell us we are immature and not respectful yet never show us any form of respect at all (at one school anyway, the career school was totally different). One teacher would give us work sheets like we was kids in 1st grade and barely go over the chapter we was on. We would take notes from it and do vocab. He was a very lazy teacher.

 

Games are fun you can do pretty much whatever you want and you are not in this world at all. You are on your own exploring and having fun. No one is there to tell you what to do and it's all made up. Nothing real or harsh to it.

 

 

@Kyrieath

 

Very well said!

Edited October 10, 2012 by demonicvampiregirl

[Sophiera]

Games are (usually) very engaging because the company's life depends on it. If a game doesn't engage a person, they've failed.

 

And engagement doesn't equate to fun. It's the ability to hold someone's attention for a long time.

 

Because engagement is so important when it comes to the gaming medium, designers will do everything they can to make it engaging. It's their job, their wallet, and their food.

 

This sense of engagement is also the same for books, comics, movies, or any creative work.

 

Same can't be said to lots of typical 'learning' because of the quality of teachers. Boring teachers don't know how to engage students, and therefore boring. They're missing the engagement factor that games have because the teachers either didn't think it's important, or didn't know how to be engaging. Despite the lack of skill, they don't have a very big make-or-break incentive as game developers had.

 

I noticed in my school that having a good teacher makes a world of difference. My class would be mentally sleeping throughout some subjects. Then, the next year when a funnier teacher took over, they stopped sleeping and started paying attention.

 

I recommend everyone to check out the 'Extra Credits' series on PennyArcadeTV. They talk about the psychology and development of games. Here are some videos that might interest our topic of discussion

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/starting-off-right

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/beyond-fun

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/episode-07-pacing

 

About education and learning...

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/gamifying-education

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/tangential-learning

 

I'll paste more about Skinner's box when the site works properly for me again

 

 

Edit: More stuff to watch

 

About Facebook games

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/energy-systems

 

Singularity

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-singularity

 

And Skinner box

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box

Edited October 11, 2012 by Sophiera

[skauble]

I think that part of the problem is that schools tend to have a rather set method that they use for teaching. Which is unfortunate, because people tend to learn in a variety of ways. There are a lot of kids that would do really well if there was more than one way to absorb the material.

 

I know a lot of people who, when alternative testing methods are used, are very bright, capable, and have amassed a good amount of knowledge. But when they're put in a traditional teaching environment, that's not really drawn out. It can get really frustrating to feel like a failure or that you're stupid all the time, and so a lot of them just disengage. And that's never going to make for a fun or interesting environment.

 

In contrast, there are a vast amount of games, and people can choose the ones that fit best into how they process information. Most people don't like every single type of game there is; folks pick the ones that are enjoyable, but that are also challenging and yet winnable. It's rare to see people pick games that they'll never get better at or never complete.

 

So I think that some what makes one so much more interesting than the other is the amount of variety involved in how information is transfered. School's always going to feel, at least in part, like an obligation, because kids have to go. But considering that the material is generally age appropriate, it really shouldn't be so difficult for so many kids that they actually hate it.

 

I think that introducing learning-based games is an excellent idea. I believe that the more ways we offer to children to learn a given subject, the more engaged and successful they'll be.

[SilverX7Studios]

I do believe it's a choice instead of being forced to do it kind of thing.

Whenever I'm forced to do something I don't want to do, I always end up doing it worse than when I want to do it. Like with my math homework. On days I feel like actually doing it, I get it done, and done well. On days I don't feel like doing it, I become easily distracted, my mind wanders, and I tend to get problems wrong more easily.

If I was forced to play 'LoZ: Ocarina of Time' right now, I probably wouldn't get very far because I don't feel like playing it right now.

I also found out I'm better at my homework at night. Total quiet, no one to disturb me, and I'm not awake enough to daydream or anything.

[RWyvern]

Okay, let's put it this way...

 

What school allows you to hoon around the streets like a madman? 8D

 

Seriously though, I find games tend to teach you things without you even realizing it, as you're having fun. With school, you know you're learning, and combine that with the monotonous teaching methods makes for difficulty concentrating = little stuff learned.

 

Although, as SilverX7Studios said, it does come down to choice. I have had those few rare days where I enjoy school and actually learn something useful.

[SilverX7Studios]

My favourite type of games are puzzle games. However, I don't like those games like 'Brain Age' or whatever it's called that are a direct 'this is supposed to teach you stuff'. Games where they have actually good plots and likeable characters and instead of 'kill this monster to move forward' have something like 'solve this complex yet enjoyable puzzle to move forward'. I like games like that. However, mindless action games are fun to.

 

I think a combo of the two (Kind of like Legend of Zelda, where you fight monsters but there are also some puzzles) would be good.

[Hawktalon]

I love video games, absolutely, but I actually rarely play them nowadays because I'm focused on my schoolwork, and other interests. Life's quite a balancing act. But the games I liked were always ones with interesting stories, above all else. The characters and plots of most of the games I play are what compel me to keep going in the game, and I love them. Video games are, amongst other things, another medium to tell a story with. What I learn from them ties into that too. I feel I learn about storytelling and plot, and you can take some things away form a game that you can from things like books, like with cautionary tales, or historical fiction. I don't play many "get the high score" or "shoot 'em up" type games, but I'm sure they have some sort of value, like better hand-eye coordination.

 

I think "gameified" learning would be great if executed right, but it would depend on what kind of game it is (i.e. one where you try to get the highest score vs. one where you try to beat it and reach the end), if that is the type preferred by whoever is supposed to be playing the game, and how well it can mix with what you're teaching. But I encourage such a fun idea that respects gaming 100 percent! ;D

 

Being a huge nerd, I recently saw an exhibition at an art museum called "The Art of Video Games," which perfectly explained how they can be a respected, unique medium. There was a book that went with the exhibit, and if you read its introduction, I think it could be of great use to you since it can tell better than I can what's so great about games. This link has an excerpt which contains that introduction.

 

I really hope I helped, this just sounds great!

Edited October 15, 2012 by Hawktalon

[stogucheme]

1. Why do you rather play than learn?

2. Do you learn something by playing and what would that be?

3. What makes gaming so much more interesting than school or learning?

4. And - if you like - how much time do you spend on games in a week?

5. And finally: Do you thing a gamificated learning would be a better learning?

1. Honestly? I have trouble absorbing information through reading. One of my teacher's biggest complaints was that on my book reports, I only wrote down things that were major events or really interested me.

2. Most certainly! I play Sudoku a lot. When I was learning Roman numerals and kanji, I would substitute the Arabic numerals (1 to 9) for the Roman ones (I to X) or kanji (- to +, pretend those are actual kanji). I even played Sudoku Tens (which used 0 to 9) and learned the kanji for zero, which is really complicated.

Oh, and when I was a kid, I would play vocabulary games and stuff. I'd have to tell you that I learn best through games.

3. It's presented in a form that I understand, and one that I can absorb much easier.

4. Um...ones that help me learn or just games? Um...no comment.

5. Yes! For some. Honestly, I think that multiple ways for learning should be offered.

 

Plus everything skauble wrote.

Edited October 17, 2012 by stogucheme

[Foxypuff]

Learn or play... Learning is actually more important than games, though playing them is also useful if there's nothing else to do, so I can't be that sure which could be better. I have a habit of playing games all the time.

[7Deadly$ins]

1. Honestly? I have trouble absorbing information through reading. One of my teacher's biggest complaints was that on my book reports, I only wrote down things that were major events or really interested me.

2. Most certainly! I play Sudoku a lot. When I was learning Roman numerals and kanji, I would substitute the Arabic numerals (1 to 9) for the Roman ones (I to X) or kanji (- to +, pretend those are actual kanji). I even played Sudoku Tens (which used 0 to 9) and learned the kanji for zero, which is really complicated.

Oh, and when I was a kid, I would play vocabulary games and stuff. I'd have to tell you that I learn best through games.

3. It's presented in a form that I understand, and one that I can absorb much easier.

4. Um...ones that help me learn or just games? Um...no comment.

5. Yes! For some. Honestly, I think that multiple ways for learning should be offered.

 

Plus everything skauble wrote.

If you're learning kanji, it would help you to be able to type it. PM me if you don't know how.

[Raistlin24]

Why do you rather play than learn?

What I like about games is that I choose to play them and if at some point I want to stop, I can just leave the game for another day without any important consequences. Even though I'm studying what I want, there is always a feeling of obligation. Also, if you fail at a videogame nobody cares; it's not important and the success (or lack of success) doesn't mean anything.

As much as I like games, I have to spend more time studying.

 

Do you learn something by playing and what would that be?

I like logic games, crosswords and chess and I do think that I've learned something: to understand the information given in a task (and to read it without missing half of that information) and to be able to reduce complex tasks to easy steps can be useful.

It might sound silly, but videogames (and tv shows/books/other things that are not related to school) taught me something important: English. I learned it as a foreign language and I improved a lot when I started playing games in English. There are many videogames that are not translated so even when I was playing shooter games I was learning something useful without realizing it.

 

What makes gaming so much more interesting than school or learning?

I think what makes games much more interesting is the same thing that makes books/sports/other enjoyable activities much more interesting than learning: you do it because you want to and not because you have to. I love reading, but didn't like most of the books I had to read at school because what I read in my free time was something I chose and not something mandatory.

 

And finally: Do you thing a gamificated learning would be a better learning?

I think that would depend on the game, on the person and on the subject. We had some games at school that I thought were as boring as the normal lessons, because it was not something I wanted to do but something I had to do. There were others I liked though but I'm not sure I learned much with them.

[Jennigma]

My son uses the Khan academy, and finds it much more rewarding than other styles of learning. He likes being able to choose from several options at the end of each little module, following the path of his curiosity.

 

I have always been a self directed learner, as my son seems to be. I get rewards from asking questions and discovering answers, and have trouble in classes where the learning path doesn't follow my own inclinations. I think gamification simulates and enhances this style of learning, which at least for me feels more natural. Small, incremental rewards and options to explore, rather than a fixed path to be followed withint deviation.

[Kowasaci2]

Well gamificated learning would be much better.

First your brain emits dopamine when playing games.

Second that leads to addiction.

Third people would be addicted to learning:win.

Also games made my reflexes better.Typing 24/7 on a keyboard needs skill.

And probably school is boring because there isnt as much interaction there.And school manuals are getting more sour every schoolyear.In the 6th grade theres no more "solve the question to save the knight" thing.That makes the brain think we didnt acomplish anything without mr.knight.Thus not producing dopamine and making it boring.