Notice.

[Sukisho]

I read through a lot of the thread and I totally disagree about banning IOUs.

 

Once upon a time, trading was not an official part of the game. It was at your own risk. Sometimes things went great, and other times your end of the deal got snatched of the AP before you even had a chance. When TJ changed the coding to not allow users to grab things off the AP with the code, there was tons of outrage about not being able to trade anymore. So finally we got teleport and official trading.

 

I am not saying that we need an official way of doing IOUs, but that because trading is an integral part of the game now, and an official part, you can't ban IOUs. It is how some people do all their trades.

 

I really think maybe more warnings and notices that Mods and Admin can do nothing for eggs lost when people don't fulfill IOUs, but they certainly shouldn't be taken away.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

That would be a blacklist and we don't allow those. That would also be an IOU topic and those haven't been allowed for a long time.

As this thread has already proven, rules can be changed. A well-managed thread wouldn't have any false blacklists on it, it'd be quite similar to the gifting threads where blacklists ARE allowed. lP

 

@Rayden: I agree completely. I don't do IOUs with anyone who 1) I haven't seen on IRC many times before 2) are Bronze Trophy or below or 3) is below level 5 on the forums. Having to go off-site would ruin that... which is why I'd probably stick to lurking-type on-forum IOUs.

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[rubyshoes]

I don't really see this changing the contest threads but I'll bring it up to the other mods.

my reply evilminion from the previous page

[gistofeverything]

If mods are going to make the general userbase go elsewhere for IOUs, why don't the mods provide a place to go?

 

As this thread has already proven, rules can be changed. A well-managed thread wouldn't have any false blacklists on it, it'd be quite similar to the gifting threads where blacklists ARE allowed. lP

 

Could you consider that a gifting thread, though? No matter how you sugarcoat it, an IOU is an IOU.

Edited October 2, 2012 by gistofeverything

[Emeraldmay]

That would be a blacklist and we don't allow those. That would also be an IOU topic and those haven't been allowed for a long time.

Wouldn't it be better to have an IOU topic then to have scammers?

 

I would describe one more as a register in a way, you report a trade, put in the codes for the eggs, report it once the IOU is completed. I don't think the mods take responsibility for ARK - they wouldn't have to for this.

 

Black lists are allowed on project accounts as far as I'm aware. This would be a project to improve IOU success rates and stop scammers - isn't that just as worthwhile as building lineages?

 

 

[brairtrainer]

If mods are going to make the general userbase go elsewhere for IOUs, why don't the mods provide a place to go?

 

As this thread has already proven, rules can be changed. A well-managed thread wouldn't have any false blacklists on it, it'd be quite similar to the gifting threads where blacklists ARE allowed. lP

 

Could you consider that a gifting thread, though? No matter how you sugarcoat it, an IOU is an IOU.

this please? although we could just migrate to EATW trade market and flood it with yet to be bred quests asking to pm back here....but then there would be too many trades to be held

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Could you consider that a gifting thread, though? No matter how you sugarcoat it, an IOU is an IOU.

It'd never be a gifting thread, of course, but the point is that exceptions are already made to allow blacklists in some places. I thus think a blacklist for one allowed IOU topic would be fine. Heck, it could just be a GREY list that lists people who haven't fulfilled IOUs in some insane amount of time (>6 months?) since it's very very hard to say anyone ever truly stopped trying to fulfill an IOU. People could get off the greylist whenever they did come through... and in the meantime it'd be a nice way of checking who you might want to be cautious about trading with.

 

Plus I imagine it'd list what the IOU was for--I'm a lot more willing to trust the person who's taken over 6 months to breed a specific 3rd-gen Gold than I am to trust the person who's taken over 6 months to deliver two CB Stone hatchlings.

[rubyshoes]

Wouldn't it be better to have an IOU topic then to have scammers?

 

I would describe one more as a register in a way, you report a trade, put in the codes for the eggs, report it once the IOU is completed. I don't think the mods take responsibility for ARK - they wouldn't have to for this.

 

Black lists are allowed on project accounts as far as I'm aware. This would be a project to improve IOU success rates and stop scammers - isn't that just as worthwhile as building lineages?

That would still be an IOU topic and I don't see those as being allowed.

[Syphoneira]

Oh, dear, this is awful!

 

I was hoping to be able to trade a couple of bred Halloween dragons in return for someone with a properly working computer catching me a couple of whatever the new Halloween Release is...

 

This really affects people with slow puters...

 

(Edit: the one I now have, that replaced the 3 others that blew or otherwise failed due to extreme age, doesn't even refresh on F-5, among other things...)

 

I know I was ripped off on an IOU, once out of no idea how many scores of times.

 

Is there really that much of a problem?

 

 

Edit: also, I suppose this knocks off getting onto breeding lists where people want to trade for future eggs...

Edited October 2, 2012 by Syphoneira

[salmonbaby]

In a few months, this will be kinda forgotten about, and hopefully by then, the mods won't be hassled as much by people whining they were owed this or that.

In a few months, this will be kinda forgotten about for sure and then people would start doing IOUs on post again and mods will have to do this all over again. Poor mods.

 

After reading all the posts (ya, I do have some free time today), I noticed that most people who posted are those who opposed which is obvious since the oppositions always voice their objections the loudest. At the same time, there are people who don't find this a real problem, myself included. It'll be more work from now on to read PMs but that's OK.

 

I just think that what the mods are trying to avoid cannot be achieved by banning IOU post in public. People will still PM the mods about bad IOUs. As some people have pointed out, all the mods have to to is tell them to read the one-way trade warning. Plain and simple.

 

We live in a free society (ok, at least I'm and if you're from one of the more restricted countries where free will and freedom of speech is not encouraged, then you're not included in "we" of my statment.) We believe in free will and freedom to do what we like to do as long as it doesn't harm anyone else along the way. We don't stop people from having head-cracking life style like skydiving and baseline jumping or even pot smoking. We tell them the risk and let them choose for themselves.

 

Maybe DC can do that too?

[brairtrainer]

Oh, dear, this is awful!

 

I was hoping to be able to trade a couple of bred Halloween dragons in return for someone with a properly working computer catching me a couple of whatever the new Halloween Release is...

 

This really affects people with slow puters...

 

I know I was ripped off on an IOU, once out of no idea how many scores of times.

 

Is there really that much of a problem?

my computer works fine but wifi and intenet at my school is iffy. I've been trying to see if there was any reasonable request that I could get the old halloweens out of and cross my fingers at the new ones. Welp, now just crossing fingers that wifi won't fail

[Lady Artemis]

So. Do we delete any IOU's we have to other people?

I would hope not!

[Emeraldmay]

That would still be an IOU topic and I don't see those as being allowed.

My main problem is - why aren't they allowed?

 

I used to play on a game named Howrse. Note the word used. A few scammers came along, it got out, now nobody trusts anybody they don't know extremely closely on there (my experience at least). I don't want this to end up like that, I love this game. I love the way I can PM a random person, offer them an IOU, and they will trust me, a complete stranger, enough to do that. I love fulfilling the IOU, and proving myself worthy of their trust. This is such a nice community - I don't want it to be ruined.

 

What would be the negative points to having an IOU thread? The only one I can see is people who genuinely can't pay getting stuck on a grey list.

[Evilminion]

...since it's very very hard to say anyone ever truly stopped trying to fulfill an IOU.

I've been trying to breed a 2nd gen gold from gold x canopy for somebody... let's see... looks like more than a year and a half now. And that definitely is the trouble with rare IOUs. In this case, it's a gift I offered rather than my half of a trade, so it's more a matter of eye-rolling irritation than the sort of ill will a long-unfilled exchange might create.

 

So on the one hand, I can definitely see where our mods -- who to the best of my knowledge are volunteers -- might be a little tired of spending their free time fielding complaints about IOUs. On the other hand, I just know there must be another solution than outright banning. IOUs are so darn useful!

[old_duck]

I read through a lot of the thread and I totally disagree about banning IOUs.

 

Once upon a time, trading was not an official part of the game. It was at your own risk. Sometimes things went great, and other times your end of the deal got snatched of the AP before you even had a chance. When TJ changed the coding to not allow users to grab things off the AP with the code, there was tons of outrage about not being able to trade anymore. So finally we got teleport and official trading.

 

I am not saying that we need an official way of doing IOUs, but that because trading is an integral part of the game now, and an official part, you can't ban IOUs. It is how some people do all their trades.

 

I really think maybe more warnings and notices that Mods and Admin can do nothing for eggs lost when people don't fulfill IOUs, but they certainly shouldn't be taken away.

This.

 

Yes, this does remind me of trading before teleport.

 

Mods, I'm sure you got complaints then about dragons being "lost in trade" even though officially there was no trading.

 

I can't see how making IOUs the new elephant in the room will help stopping scams or complaints, so I do not support this new rule.

 

Trading IOUs are at your own risk, no one else should get involved .. not mods, not your friends talking to the other person, no black lists. Learn from it and move on, even though you may have lost a dragon that represents a lot of time and effort.

Edited October 2, 2012 by old_duck

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I've been trying to breed a 2nd gen gold from gold x canopy for somebody... let's see... looks like more than a year and a half now. And that definitely is the trouble with rare IOUs. In this case, it's a gift I offered rather than my half of a trade, so it's more a matter of eye-rolling irritation than the sort of ill will a long-unfilled exchange might create.

 

So on the one hand, I can definitely see where our mods -- who to the best of my knowledge are volunteers -- might be a little tired of spending their free time fielding complaints about IOUs. On the other hand, I just know there must be another solution than outright banning. IOUs are so darn useful!

That's why I think a greylist for really long IOUs, with the items of the IOU listed, would work better than a blacklist X'D

 

While I haven't suffered nearly as long as you have, it took me two months to get a 2nd gen Nebula from Nebula x Gold I owed to someone... and I still owe them another one. Guhhh! X'D

[bluebell_rose]

Could you consider that a gifting thread, though? No matter how you sugarcoat it, an IOU is an IOU.

this please? although we could just migrate to EATW trade market and flood it with yet to be bred quests asking to pm back here....but then there would be too many trades to be held

Actually didn't we used to use the dc fansite trade market for our trades before? And what was nice about dcf, was that the site had a system of pming back and forth without the member ever having to step foot onto the official forums. This was before official trading came out btw.

[rubyshoes]

My main problem is - why aren't they allowed?

 

I used to play on a game named Howrse. Note the word used. A few scammers came along, it got out, now nobody trusts anybody they don't know extremely closely on there (my experience at least). I don't want this to end up like that, I love this game. I love the way I can PM a random person, offer them an IOU, and they will trust me, a complete stranger, enough to do that. I love fulfilling the IOU, and proving myself worthy of their trust. This is such a nice community - I don't want it to be ruined.

 

What would be the negative points to having an IOU thread? The only one I can see is people who genuinely can't pay getting stuck on a grey list.

The existing wording of the guidelines/rule about IOUs was worked out with the admin of the site so I don't see that as working on this forum. IOUs are not an option of the game.

 

No IOU topics.

The following applies to all IOU threads.

IOU's are not an option of the game, IOU's are agreements made between members. As we (DC) are not responsible for any IOU's made, allowing a topic gives members the impression we condone the practice, which we don't. Therefore, these topics will not be allowed.

(Certain discussions will be allowed by permission.)

[Thuban]

If mods are going to make the general userbase go elsewhere for IOUs, why don't the mods provide a place to go?

 

As this thread has already proven, rules can be changed. A well-managed thread wouldn't have any false blacklists on it, it'd be quite similar to the gifting threads where blacklists ARE allowed. lP

 

Could you consider that a gifting thread, though? No matter how you sugarcoat it, an IOU is an IOU.

(the following comments are my own and have nothing to do with the rest of the staff. They may or may not agree with what i have to say here)

 

**raises hand

 

 

I did suggest something. Go to the irc, make a user channel, advertise it in your signatures, find a user picked mod staff to maintain it. It doesnt take much to create a channel folks.

 

irc.technoized.com put your scroll or forum name in the box.. the name of the channel you want to join under it. If you are the first person to join /that/ channel, you automatically get OP. from there you can register your channel, assign your mods. If someone wants to start it up but needs help, im available in the chat to help you. While i would not be willing to /run/ the channel, Im still willing to help get one set up.

 

In a user channel, you guys are free to make up your own rules, enforce what you want to enforce. As long as what happens in there, stays in there, I for one dont care what you guys do in there. The only time I step in is if my chat users come to me with reports of being harrassed, or something along those lines. While a user channel is outside of my modding area.. things that happen on the network are still something we can and will deal with. It is the simplest way to resolve the iou situation. Otherwise.. im sure some of the people here own forums of their own, and would be willing to set aside space for that. You guys have other options, once you calm down and think about how you want to go about it.

 

(just as a user standpoint.. no moddyness involved):

Im really not happy with the mudslinging going on here towards the mods. I'm not a forum mod.. i have nothing to do with the forum side of modding things, but i do weigh in on policies.. just like forum mods weigh in on chat stuff (despite most not even hanging out in chat). It has come up many many times in the past year that its not fair to ban iou trading in chat, because its allowed here. We try really hard to keep both places on the same playing field, but its not possible to have everything the same. This is somethign that HAS been discussed multiple time in the past year or two. Its something that your forum mods fought gainst for a pretty long time.

As i said before: I hated not being allowed to ask for ious when it went into effect in the chat.. but, i have still been able to get the trades i need without EVER doing a single forumbased iou trade. But if you guys want someone to blame for all this.. blame me. I'm definitely one of the ones who have argued that it should be banned here in addition to chat. I've argued many many angles.. but most of my sideline suggestions would make it way to complicated for modding for the forum mods, so i stopped pitching suggestions. Give it a try for awhile, and maybe i can work some background magic to get /some/ types of ious to be allowed. For now, I'm sorry guys, but its something that kinda has to be done. We are coming up on the biggest scamming season, and personally I'm looking forward to not having the drama we have had in past years.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The existing wording of the guidelines/rule about IOUs was worked out with the admin of the site so I don't see that as working on this forum. IOUs are not an option of the game.

 

I still think the easiest counter to this is just prominently stating that it's not an official part of the game.

 

Heck, 90% of what goes on in the forums isn't really 'official.' Lineage projects. Gifting. Etc etc. I don't see why there's such a big stink over one other unofficial thing. What, is someone going to sue TJ because they didn't get anything in return for their Gold dragon IOU? The judge would kick them out of court laughing. That's like sueing the pokemon company because you gave someone a legit Mew for a Pidgey and then they never got back to you with that legit Celebi they promised.

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Shikaze]

I love the way I can PM a random person, offer them an IOU, and they will trust me, a complete stranger, enough to do that. I love fulfilling the IOU, and proving myself worthy of their trust. This is such a nice community - I don't want it to be ruined.

Emeraldmay - thank you for posting the words that I could not find.

Thanks a lot.

[blackdragon71]

So. Do we delete any IOU's we have to other people?

Wha? No. We just don't add IOU's have/wants to our posts any longer. I don't know about anyone else, but I still plan to remain a person of my word and fulfill any and all IOUs I have out there, and hope that anyone who has some for me will be just as honorable.

 

As for future IOU's, well, why can't we do what we've always done: some people still PM and say, "Hey, will you be willing to accept an IOU for..." and make the decisions we've made based on how important each trade is? That's what the mods are saying here. How much more clear does it have to be made?

 

Some people are making a huge mountain out of an ant hill, here. Yes, some people have stiffed other folks out of some really good eggs, and those folks have to be not dealt with again, but by and large, most people aren't that dishonest about their trades, and we can go on trading, just in a different manner. I'm already seeing people putting "I accept IOU's" and the like in their sigs. It's that easy, really. Some of us will agree to them in PM, most likely.

[KageSora]

Alright, read through most of the thread before posting.

 

 

First off, I wanna say that I understand why the mods decided to do this, and that I respect their decision.

 

 

that said, however, I don't agree with this at all. Allowing IOUs to happen, just in signatures and through PMs, will likely not greatly reduce the amount of people complaining to the mods. People will still get scammed, and those people may still go and complain to the mods. Who will tell them the same thing they have been, since it's not officially endorsed.

 

 

I have a question

 

I know we can't say "Want: [breed] IOU" or something. However, can we say "Want: PM for details/see signature"? Or do we have to say "Want: [actual thing somebody could offer at this time], or PM/see siggy for mroe detaisl"?

 

Because if we're just allowed to say "Want: PM/see signature" and we can then advertise our IOUs in the signature... Well, it amounts to the exact same thing.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

As i said before: I hated not being allowed to ask for ious when it went into effect in the chat.. but, i have still been able to get the trades i need without EVER doing a single forumbased iou trade. But if you guys want someone to blame for all this.. blame me. I'm definitely one of the ones who have argued that it should be banned here in addition to chat.

Ermmm............. shouldn't you have then argued for it to be allowed IN chat, if you disliked it so?

 

I still say that mods have every right to ignore/copy-paste reply to people whining about unfulfilled IOUs. It's pretty clear that they're not official, and if it's not clear enough, just STATE IT AGAIN, don't try to chase it off the forums.

 

There will always be people making IOUs. There will always be people whining to mods about them. The solution then is not to make IOUs require more back-door-ing to do, it's to come up with a more efficient way to turn away people who come crying to mods about them.

 

I would rather have the whole forum skin changed to blaring red IOUS ARE NOT OFFICIAL than to have some awkward, pointless system in which IOUs are only allowed if they go beneath the dotted line in a person's post.

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Jocosa]

IOUs are still allowed through PMs.  How hard is it to put in a trade post:

 

"Have:

 

CB Gold (or what have you)

 

Want:

 

A Holly or 2nd gen Tinsel or other GOOD offers.  Please PM me"

 

See?  No mention of IOUs, no pointing down to a signature, business can be conducted through PMs (which they are anyway with a trade like this, even in the old way, when IOUs were still mentioned.)

 

This makes sense to me. Can a Mod please comment on if this would be acceptable during any breeding period, and not just one specific to 1 or 2 of the items listed as "wants"? Thanks!

Edited October 2, 2012 by jocosa