Notice.

[gistofeverything]

Look at the post above mine.

 

Now I rest MY case.

And my arguments still stand.

I was not admonishing you, Angel, at least not that I can think of.

 

Until the rule has been spelled out letter by letter in an official thread, the previous rules still stand. Ruby, _Z_, I appreciate this warning. Thank you.

[Saloiq]

As I have signatures turned off (too many banners x_x), only allowing signatures to carry info about IOUs would be really inconvenient for me. :/ I'd also miss out on lots of potential trades if people started to only post IOU trades in their sigs.

 

As long as IOUs are not banned completely, people will still get scammed, and some of those people will still report to the mods. I don't think the hope that people will stop reporting scams to the mods is worth making it so much harder to trade. (Right now Halloween IOUs are on the brain.)

[Snowytoshi]

I'm very upset by this. Some of the best trades I have ever made have been because of IOUs. I believe that IOUs help foster a sense of trust and friendship between users. Most of us are over the age of ten and we should act like it, this shouldn't be a matter of 'people whining to the mods so lets punish everyone'. There are many people who do not whine, fulfill IOUs, and follow the forum rules. Why are they being punished for something a select few did?

 

And that is not a rhetorical question. I read through this thread and found no explanation by Z or Rubyshoes, I respect you and I realize that it is hard running a forum, but I think we all deserve an reason for the change.

[Emeraldmay]

I think this should have been better thought through before it was posted, the only reasons I can see for it being banned is:

 

a: Mods don't like people complaining to them that their IOU's went wrong

b: Allowing IOU's in trade threads seems like DC supports them.

 

 

This game has acknowledged and incorporated trading into it since the moment 'Teleport' was introduced. Teleport leads to trading, trading leads to IOU's, IOU's lead to scamming. It will happen, and if you limit it on here, then you just push people to different sites to make them.

 

Personally, I would love to see something which enforced IOU's. Yes, I know you can't make people pay up, but a list of players who haven't fulfilled IOU's (excluding those who went inactive/need more time) then you stand more chance of wiping out scamming then you do by pushing people offsite. While I'm on it, if you had an official list of IOU's, if you did scam someone then you could set up a thread that replaced scammed items. I feel it would be much, much, much more effective to legalize IOU's then to ban them.

[simkim]

Don't boycott breeding hollies - if you feel that you can't do trades in sufficient time, then consider donating a holly towards The Holly Contest. Right now, there are 8 holly prizes - I'm hoping there will be more so that it rewards more people.

 

As for IOU or whatever - I don't do IOUs publicly. I only do them in private - meaning PMs or chat with me privately on irc - so I find all this anger about no more saying IOU in posts kinda out of place because most trade posts usually are "Want GOOD offers! PM me".

 

In a few months, this will be kinda forgotten about, and hopefully by then, the mods won't be hassled as much by people whining they were owed this or that.

 

Simple as that. At least to my thinking.

[Varekis]

I'm very upset by this. Some of the best trades I have ever made have been because of IOUs. I believe that IOUs help foster a sense of trust and friendship between users. Most of us are over the age of ten and we should act like it, this shouldn't be a matter of 'people whining to the mods so lets punish everyone'. There are many people who do not whine, fulfill IOUs, and follow the forum rules. Why are they being punished for something a select few did?

 

And that is not a rhetorical question. I read through this thread and found no explanation by Z or Rubyshoes, I respect you and I realize that it is hard running a forum, but I think we all deserve an reason for the change.

I actually agree with that, cheesy as it seems. I've had conversations with some of my IOU traders to the point where we were exchanging fully fledged PM quote pyramids and adding random gifts on top of our arranged trade purely because we had what each other wanted. Fun times! Always nice to run into someone chatty. =)

 

Maybe it's because I've been fortunate (so far) to have struck trades with lovely and honest players, but yeah, it sucks to see the poor choices of a few impact the whole game for everyone else.

 

Edit:

 

Actually, can we just change the rule so that anyone posting an IOU in their post has to add some disclaimer about IOUs being unofficial and that you, as a trader, are fully responsible for what happens? Maybe that would get the message across to those less informed about the darker side of IOUs and also means mods won't be held responsible for dealing with them (which seems to be the primary reason for concern)?

Edited October 1, 2012 by Varekis

[angelicdragonpuppy]

As for IOU or whatever - I don't do IOUs publicly. I only do them in private - meaning PMs or chat with me privately on irc - so I find all this anger about no more saying IOU in posts kinda out of place because most trade posts usually are "Want GOOD offers! PM me".

Simkim, if I might use a personal example...

 

Recently I got a really wonderful trade; a CB Gold for 60 CB common hatchies delivered in time for a zombiefest! While it's possible for me to dig up enough CB commons all by myself in time to fulfill the IOU, it would be tough--so the last month or so I've turned to asking for IOU CB hatchies in exchange for things.

 

Now, imagine instead of saying "I want an IOU of x amount of CB hatchies delivered between times z and y," I have to say "PM me for what I want." Now instead of only getting PMs from people willing to offer what I want, I have to wade through who knows how many PMs telling people the specific thing I want--and then probably having all of them be like "oh nope can't do that, sorry." Rather inconvenient, and for no decent reason. As Emeraldmay said, all the reasons this is being done are things that could be better solved in a different way.

[littleblackdog]

I don't support this at all. I will continue to offer and accept IOU's, it's a risk I take. I've been scammed before and I don't go whining to the admin. Take some responsibility!

[gistofeverything]

Though this may not receive support, there is no way around it except through a form of divine intervention, so that it may seem. Complaining about it will be absolutely useless, since this issue looks like it may be non-negotiable. Sad it may be, but that's the way it is.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Though this may not receive support, there is no way around it except through a form of divine intervention, so that it may seem. Complaining about it will be absolutely useless, since this issue looks like it may be non-negotiable. Sad it may be, but that's the way it is.

By that logic we should just roll over in defeat whenever anything happens on the forums that we disagree with. Every one of the mods is a rational, thinking person; we can only hope that they are thus open to intelligent compromises. A pity to the forums if the mods are gods.

[bluebell_rose]

I say we stop trading officially. Cuz then there'd be no iou scams!

[aqua17]

I don't support this at all.  I will continue to offer and accept IOU's, it's a risk I take.  I've been scammed before and I don't go whining to the admin.  Take some responsibility!

I agree completely.

 

mystyic

[Evilminion]

Just need to know whether this change will affect existing contests? Kind of hard to offer prizes if we can't promise to breed 'em after the contest ends...

[rebelgoddess19]

While I understand why the mods are doing this, I don't agree. I love doing IOUs. It gives me a chance to give people what they need for something that I need, and vice versa. I have just about everything on DC and this is how I keep myself interested in DC.

 

I completely understand that some people haven't gotten their IOU but that is the risk THEY take. I take them all the time and if I don't get a IOU, that's my problem. I took it knowing full well that the person might not go through with it. That is my problem, not anyone elses.

[Emeraldmay]

Though this may not receive support, there is no way around it except through a form of divine intervention, so that it may seem. Complaining about it will be absolutely useless, since this issue looks like it may be non-negotiable. Sad it may be, but that's the way it is.

From the fact that the last 3 pages have been user to user discussion, the last mod post being over 25 minutes ago, I would think they'd be taking the objections into consideration. When black lists were banned, there wasn't half as many people watching the thread, and if I recall correctly, only two pages of questions.

 

I'd place my bet that they're considering everyone's opinions.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Just need to know whether this change will affect existing contests? Kind of hard to offer prizes if we can't promise to breed 'em after the contest ends...

Unless the contest involves people giving you something, then no, it's a gift rather than an IOU and thus doesn't apply here.

[High Lord November]

I'm slightly confused as to why this would be. Restricting IOU's in PMs is just a very roundabout way of getting them done, not to mention you cannot clearly state your intentions unless your get the correct person PMing you. And I'm pretty sure that both the person accepting IOUs and the person 'giving out' the IOU should be mature enough to carry them out or accept the consequences in most cases. In the cases in which they aren't, well, they should soon learn.

 

Perhaps we could have a special IOU topic, where people who do not carry them out (without a reasonable reason) get 'banned' from the topic, like in TGT?

[rubyshoes]

Just need to know whether this change will affect existing contests? Kind of hard to offer prizes if we can't promise to breed 'em after the contest ends...

I don't really see this changing the contest threads but I'll bring it up to the other mods.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm slightly confused as to why this would be. Restricting IOU's in PMs is just a very roundabout way of getting them done, not to mention you cannot clearly state your intentions unless your get the correct person PMing you. And I'm pretty sure that both the person accepting IOUs and the person 'giving out' the IOU should be mature enough to carry them out or accept the consequences in most cases. In the cases in which they aren't, well, they should soon learn.

 

Perhaps we could have a special IOU topic, where people who do not carry them out (without a reasonable reason) get 'banned' from the topic, like in TGT?

EmeraldMay suggested this as well, and I support it. It'd be user-run and managed, I imagine, so less work for the mods than pointlessly checking every post for IOUs would be.

 

That being said, I'd like to still see IOUs being open for offering in the normal trade threads. Perhaps there could be a joint-thread effort in which any scamming anywhere still earns one a place on the IOU trading thread's blacklist...

 

It goes without saying that accusations of failed IOU fulfillment would have to be veryyy solidly proven to have a person blacklisted.

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[pinkieseb]

So. Do we delete any IOU's we have to other people?

[rayden54]

Don't boycott breeding hollies - if you feel that you can't do trades in sufficient time, then consider donating a holly towards The Holly Contest.  Right now, there are 8 holly prizes - I'm hoping there will be more so that it rewards more people. 

 

As for IOU or whatever - I don't do IOUs publicly.  I only do them in private - meaning PMs or chat with me privately on irc - so I find all this anger about no more saying IOU in posts kinda out of place because most trade posts usually are "Want GOOD offers!  PM me". 

 

In a few months, this will be kinda forgotten about, and hopefully by then, the mods won't be hassled as much by people whining they were owed this or that.

 

Simple as that.  At least to my thinking.

-comment removed-

 

If I can't ask for what I want, potential trading partners have no way of knowing. Holiday trades in particular suffer from this. From past experience, I know that if I don't ask for Holiday IOUs, I won't get a single PM for one.

 

I don't want to just say, "I'm looking for offers" because that opens you up to PMs for EVERYTHING. I really don't want to sort through 20 PMs of people offering me a messy hatchling for a CB gold (for example).

 

The details are already conducted via PM. This doesn't stop IOUs. It just makes them more difficult to arrange. It accomplishes nothing.

 

As to why I use the forum: it offers a certain level of transparency. I can look through your posts. If you've got a scroll link in your signature, I can even look to see that you can actually get what you're offering. Out there, you can tell me you're Jim Bob, and link me to Jim Bob's scroll. IOUs are a gamble, and I want to minimize that gamble as much as possible.

Edited October 2, 2012 by rubyshoes

[rubyshoes]

I'm slightly confused as to why this would be. Restricting IOU's in PMs is just a very roundabout way of getting them done, not to mention you cannot clearly state your intentions unless your get the correct person PMing you. And I'm pretty sure that both the person accepting IOUs and the person 'giving out' the IOU should be mature enough to carry them out or accept the consequences in most cases. In the cases in which they aren't, well, they should soon learn.

 

Perhaps we could have a special IOU topic, where people who do not carry them out (without a reasonable reason) get 'banned' from the topic, like in TGT?

That would be a blacklist and we don't allow those. That would also be an IOU topic and those haven't been allowed for a long time.

[High Lord November]

That would be a blacklist and we don't allow those.

But I'm pretty sure TGT has a blacklist, does it not?

Edited October 2, 2012 by High Lord November

[Evilminion]

Unless the contest involves people giving you something, then no, it's a gift rather than an IOU and thus doesn't apply here.

It'd be good to have confirmation on that, heh.

 

(EDIT: Thanks, rubyshoes, for checking into it. *HUGS*)

 

I do have to say, though, I'm sad about the new rule. One of the most enjoyable trades I made this past year involved a whirlwind of catching and hatching a couple dozen commons in exchange for one really marvelous rare. Additionally, this will make holiday trading for anything other than Halloween unfeasible, since we can only hold two each of the other dragons, and it usually takes much longer than the hour-or-less grace period to find a suitable swap.

 

Fingers crossed that this ban is reconsidered.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Evilminion

[littleblackdog]

So. Do we delete any IOU's we have to other people?

Of course not! How is that a nice thing to do? The rule change states you may not advertise IOU's any longer. That doesn't take away your responsibility for past IOU's made or future ones.