Notice.

[rubyshoes]

Bold is mine.

The rare trade thread rules are out of date and no thread mods are currently active so the thread may need to be revised.

[Saloiq]

Why don't we have a big banner that doesn't go away until you read that IOUs are at your own risk and agree not to bring IOU scams to the mods (just like the big banner that doesn't go away until after 10 posts)?

 

This would make the forum's stance towards IOUs clear to everyone, so people wouldn't think we support IOUs by allowing them.

 

Mods, is there a reason this wouldn't be a feasible idea? (:

[rayden54]

There's also the problem that the mods would still have to deal with these people, and it would also clog up their inboxes when they have other things to take care of. I was around to see a lovely bit of drama last christmas over a holly IOU that got broken - it took about 24 hours, had half the IRC in a tizzy, and ended with 2-3 people being banned (Though they were later unbanned). And that was ONE broken IOU. The whole drama with IOUs happens too often around the yearly events, so even though it sucks, it does make perfect sense.

 

It's sort of not just to prevent a slew of bannings, but also to save the mods a lot of time and headaches? I wouldn't be too worried - rules have been changed in the past. I have absolute faith that if the mods come up with a better solution they'll change this one.

Except they're not banning IOUs. They're only banning them from the forums. You'd still have the same exact problem.

 

The only difference is that the rest of us are being punished.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If you post a common in the rare thread, I remove it.  I don't see anything about a ban for that in their rules. But the rare thread seems not to have any current active thread mods and may need to be revised as it is.

Bluebell quoted the relevant part for me.

 

But whether it's that thread or any other--the point is the same. People need to read the rules, wherever they are. Like the spam ones? On most threads, you won't see a warning about posting just smiley faces or whatever. Yet people are expected to follow those rules, or be warned. The same should apply here.

 

Or, even if you don't think a small on-forum warning is good enough: ADD IOU INFO INTO THE ONE-WAY TRANSFERS! Heck, add it into the two-way transfers too if you want (since some people might do 'dummy trades' in return for a future IOU).

 

Here, look. Imagine a transfer/trade displayed like this:

 

---

 

In order for other people to claim the dragons contained in this transfer, have them visit the below link. Anyone with this link will be able to claim your dragons with no further confirmation from you.

 

This is a ONE WAY TRANSFER. Users recieving this transfer are not obligated to give you anything in return. Promises of future payments in return for this transfer are not an official feature of the site and cannot be enforced by staff members. Accept promises of future payment at your own risk. Contacting staff members about unfulfilled payments will result in a warning on the forums.

 

The following egg(s)/hatchling(s) are a part of this one-way transfer: Blah blah blah

 

Click here to cancel the transfer

 

---

 

And yes, when I moved the warning to the top and made it big and bolded it, that's exactly how I mean it should be displayed. Someone who fails to notice THAT and still PMs a staff member deserves their warn.

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[rubyshoes]

Why don't we have a big banner that doesn't go away until you read that IOUs are at your own risk and agree not to bring IOU scams to the mods (just like the big banner that doesn't go away until after 10 posts)?

 

This would make the forum's stance towards IOUs clear to everyone, so people wouldn't think we support IOUs by allowing them.

 

Mods, is there a reason this wouldn't be a feasible idea? (:

That's a question you'd need to ask TJ as it would be an addition to the forum rather than something mods can decide.

[Ashes The Second]

Bluebell quoted the relevant part for me.

 

But whether it's that thread or any other--the point is the same. People need to read the rules, wherever they are. Like the spam ones? On most threads, you won't see a warning about posting just smiley faces or whatever. Yet people are expected to follow those rules, or be warned. The same should apply here.

 

Or, even if you don't think a small on-forum warning is good enough: ADD IOU INFO INTO THE ONE-WAY TRANSFERS! Heck, add it into the two-way transfers too if you want (since some people might do 'dummy trades' in return for a future IOU).

 

Here, look. Imagine a transfer/trade displayed like this:

 

---

 

In order for other people to claim the dragons contained in this transfer, have them visit the below link. Anyone with this link will be able to claim your dragons with no further confirmation from you.

 

This is a ONE WAY TRANSFER. Users recieving this transfer are not obligated to give you anything in return. Promises of future payments in return for this transfer are not an official feature of the site and cannot be enforced by staff members. Accept promises of future payment at your own risk. Contacting staff members about unfulfilled payments will result in a warning on the forums.

 

The following egg(s)/hatchling(s) are a part of this one-way transfer: Blah blah blah

 

Click here to cancel the transfer

 

---

 

And yes, when I moved the warning to the top and made it big and bolded it, that's exactly how I mean it should be displayed. Someone who fails to notice THAT and still PMs a staff member deserves their warn.

So much this. If you don't support it, state it clearly somewhere, don't give up when you get PMs about being scammed. It doesn't do anything to ban it altogether. I can understand the IRC, but here... lol.

[Thuban]

I did. That's /exactly/ what you guys said. Can you please clarify? If we aren't allowed to go 'have: ____ want: ____' then how do we trade? offsite? o.o; I want ot be clear, and there was nothing harsh intended. I realize the mods will get a lot of crap, but I really do suggest you clarify. :/

Have: (whatever you have in hand)

Want whatever yuo are looking for, with the exception of asking for holidays outside of their breeding windows. for example my trades in chat tend to be

 

Have so and so awesome rare

Want: large number of cb hatchys pm with questions

 

 

the reason i do that? Because if im trading a cb rare for 15 hatchys, but i want them influences certain ways, i drop the price. 15 random hatchys or 5 mals and 5 females or 10 females.

If im expecting people to use influence, or rush to get hatchys to me in a time crunch, i negotiate my prices Its not always a matter of "ious" so much as "i need 5 of this and 4 of that or if you can pull it off this type of pairing". As long as i have my rare in hand, i do not feel bad for being vauge about what im looking for. Sometimes the offers i get are much much better than what im specifically looking for. As long as your end of the trade is in your hand, i see no reason not to ask for whatever you want, as long as its something that can actually be bred or caught at that time. valentines dragons can not be bred right now, so asking for a v-day would be an iou. Asking for a holly.. or even pumpkins would be an iou. In chat, usually a few days before the events /normally/ start, we might let people start working out trades for their holidays. People have done just fine with asking around "hey can anyone breed something like this (random lineage).

[Ashes The Second]

Have: (whatever you have in hand)

Want whatever yuo are looking for, with the exception of asking for holidays outside of their breeding windows. for example my trades in chat tend to be

 

Have so and so awesome rare

Want: large number of cb hatchys pm with questions

 

 

the reason i do that? Because if im trading a cb rare for 15 hatchys, but i want them influences certain ways, i drop the price. 15 random hatchys or 5 mals and 5 females or 10 females.

If im expecting people to use influence, or rush to get hatchys to me in a time crunch, i negotiate my prices Its not always a matter of "ious" so much as "i need 5 of this and 4 of that or if you can pull it off this type of pairing". As long as i have my rare in hand, i do not feel bad for being vauge about what im looking for. Sometimes the offers i get are much much better than what im specifically looking for. As long as your end of the trade is in your hand, i see no reason not to ask for whatever you want, as long as its something that can actually be bred or caught at that time. valentines dragons can not be bred right now, so asking for a v-day would be an iou. Asking for a holly.. or even pumpkins would be an iou. In chat, usually a few days before the events /normally/ start, we might let people start working out trades for their holidays. People have done just fine with asking around "hey can anyone breed something like this (random lineage).

Thank you. I know it seems like a silly question, but no question is a silly one. Everyone should remember that. ._. It just didn't make sense to my snail brain.

[Xylene]

Except they're not banning IOUs. They're only banning them from the forums. You'd still have the same exact problem.

 

The only difference is that the rest of us are being punished.

 

The thing is, now that IOUs are banned from the official areas - the IRC counts as an official area, since the mods lurk in the trades channel too - it truly does make them unofficial. People are forced to think about what they're accepting, and there should (in theory) be less of them running to the mods when things go bad.

 

I'm pretty sure the mods won't be looking at every one-way trade and going "AHA YOU ARE TRADING USING IOUS. BANS. BANS FOR EVERYONE!" anyway. I mean, can you imagine that?

Edited October 2, 2012 by Xylene

[Saloiq]

That's a question you'd need to ask TJ as it would be an addition to the forum rather than something mods can decide.

Okay, I was thinking that too. v_v So a question you can answer then: would you like it as an alternative to the "no IOUs in posts" rule? (hypothetical situation, ofc) And why or why not?

Edited October 2, 2012 by Saloiq

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The thing is, now that IOUs are banned from the official areas - the IRC counts as an official area, since the mods lurk in the trades channel too - it truly does make them unofficial. People are forced to think about what they're accepting, and there should (in theory) be less of them running to the mods when things go bad.

Since they can still be done via PMs, either here or on IRC, and since they can still be displayed in signatures/profiles, I imagine there will still be plenty of people cryin' to the mods.

[bluebell_rose]

people will still run to the mods and complain 'omg so and so didn't complete his part of the deal! DO SOMETHING!"

[rubyshoes]

Okay, I was thinking that too. v_v So a question you can answer then: would you like it as an alternative to the "no IOUs in posts" rule? (hypothetical situation, ofc) And why or why not?

Personal opinion is no, I don't think it would really do much good. We still get questions in Help, egg spam etc even with the big banner that doesn't go away until we have ten posts so I'm not sure it would really help.

[Thuban]

Thank you. I know it seems like a silly question, but no question is a silly one. Everyone should remember that. ._. It just didn't make sense to my snail brain.

No worries. I'm really trying to help people out with their answers. Maybe i should get to work on an FAQ thingy for Ruby to post to the first page Some of the same questions keep popping up, and it might help be be able to reference them in the first post.

 

since i have this post currently open I might as well throw a bunch here:

 

No, gifting threads will not be affected, as those are not really trades. They are gifts.

 

Yes, you can post you accept IOUs in your sig/profile

 

No, there will not be an iou trading thread allowed on this site. You are totally welcome to make a channel in the irc, or run something offsite in a forum of your own. You can engage in ious all you like by pm, chat (pms or user channels... no official areas) email.. whatever you want. Have fun. Not in the forum, not in the official chat channels.

 

No, you may not ask for holidays out of their breeding window. They can not possibly be bred outside of their breeding windows therefore it would be considered iou. (though, opening the door for asking for holidays like 2-3 days before events have started in the past might be an option and i plan to talk to the mods about that)

 

 

cant think of any other ones i have had to answer multiple times, but theres a start at least.

[ThatDeadGirl]

So pretty much you're creating prohibition on IOU's in trades. So essentially, speakeasies will be set up to IOU underground. And because it's underground people will get burned harder and more often because of it. In covering your butts you've done a huge disservice to the community.

[rayden54]

So pretty much you're creating prohibition on IOU's in trades. So essentially, speakeasies will be set up to IOU underground. And because it's underground people will get burned harder and more often because of it. In covering your butts you've done a huge disservice to the community.

While accomplishing nothing at all. Since people will still cry to the mods.

[rubyshoes]

No worries. I'm really trying to help people out with their answers. Maybe i should get to work on an FAQ thingy for Ruby to post to the first page Some of the same questions keep popping up, and it might help be be able to reference them in the first post.

 

since i have this post currently open I might as well throw a bunch here:

 

No, gifting threads will not be affected, as those are not really trades. They are gifts.

 

Yes, you can post you accept IOUs in your sig/profile

 

No, there will not be an iou trading thread allowed on this site. You are totally welcome to make a channel in the irc, or run something offsite in a forum of your own. You can engage in ious all you like by pm, chat (pms or user channels... no official areas) email.. whatever you want. Have fun. Not in the forum, not in the official chat channels.

 

No, you may not ask for holidays out of their breeding window. They can not possibly be bred outside of their breeding windows therefore it would be considered iou. (though, opening the door for asking for holidays like 2-3 days before events have started in the past might be an option and i plan to talk to the mods about that)

 

 

cant think of any other ones i have had to answer multiple times, but theres a start at least.

Thank you. I'll add those.

[bluebell_rose]

unfortunately 2-3 days is not enough time for me to do my research. And trade hunting. I need much longer. I have been burnt you know, so i want to research the person I'm trading with carefully before hand. Being backstabbed more than once doesn't make me anymore inclined to trade nor gift. Only an exceptionally good offer will probably entice me

Edited October 2, 2012 by bluebell_rose

[Xylene]

people will still run to the mods and complain 'omg so and so didn't complete his part of the deal! DO SOMETHING!"

Since they can still be done via PMs, either here or on IRC, and since they can still be displayed in signatures/profiles, I imagine there will still be plenty of people cryin' to the mods.

 

But in theory, this should result in LESS people going to the mods. Also, if you think about IOUs as carefully as I hope you do, you'll likely go to your friends for trades and IOUs. Friends are less likely to backstab you, in my experience. Still happens, but it's less likely. And as long as neither of you sees fit to whine to the mods, there isn't a problem.

 

Considering that Thuban and the other mods are looking at this, I'd suggest taking a few deep, calming breaths, maybe waiting 24 hours, and then coming back. We've got good mods; something's sure to be sorted out.

[LibbyLishly]

So pretty much you're creating prohibition on IOU's in trades. So essentially, speakeasies will be set up to IOU underground. And because it's underground people will get burned harder and more often because of it. In covering your butts you've done a huge disservice to the community.

'Speakeasies', I like it. Those might be a little easier for users to self-police, honestly, because that will be potentially the only thing being tracked. I'm now creating a 'whitelist' and we'll either host IOU trading at L&L and send them to other forums that I know are already in progress (not naming names since they didn't make it public here).

 

I'm not even remotely defending the new rule, but I am pointing out a loophole that we can use.

[Banuk]

 

But in theory, this should result in LESS people going to the mods. Also, if you think about IOUs as carefully as I hope you do, you'll likely go to your friends for trades and IOUs. Friends are less likely to backstab you, in my experience. Still happens, but it's less likely. And as long as neither of you sees fit to whine to the mods, there isn't a problem.

And what happens if you don't know the right people? What if you don't have any friends?

 

 

I, for one, know I have made myself somewhat unpopular for daring to voice my opinion in threads such as these. Should I not be allowed to trade just because I don't know or have anyone to go to?

Edited October 2, 2012 by Derranged

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Here, look. Imagine a transfer/trade displayed like this:

 

---

 

In order for other people to claim the dragons contained in this transfer, have them visit the below link. Anyone with this link will be able to claim your dragons with no further confirmation from you.

 

This is a ONE WAY TRANSFER. Users recieving this transfer are not obligated to give you anything in return. Promises of future payments in return for this transfer are not an official feature of the site and cannot be enforced by staff members. Accept promises of future payment at your own risk. Contacting staff members about unfulfilled payments will result in a warning on the forums.

 

The following egg(s)/hatchling(s) are a part of this one-way transfer: Blah blah blah

 

Click here to cancel the transfer

@Xylene: something like this would accomplish that while not hurting people who are ok with taking the risks of IOUs.

 

Also I have now seen IOUs compared to both alcohol and apples X'D

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[bluebell_rose]

 

But in theory, this should result in LESS people going to the mods. Also, if you think about IOUs as carefully as I hope you do, you'll likely go to your friends for trades and IOUs. Friends are less likely to backstab you, in my experience. Still happens, but it's less likely. And as long as neither of you sees fit to whine to the mods, there isn't a problem.

 

Considering that Thuban and the other mods are looking at this, I'd suggest taking a few deep, calming breaths, maybe waiting 24 hours, and then coming back. We've got good mods; something's sure to be sorted out.

actually i traded with trustyworthy friends and I got backstabbed by them. I much rather trade with a random stranger I know nothing about so he/she can't backstab me

[demonicvampiregirl]

 

But in theory, this should result in LESS people going to the mods. Also, if you think about IOUs as carefully as I hope you do, you'll likely go to your friends for trades and IOUs. Friends are less likely to backstab you, in my experience. Still happens, but it's less likely. And as long as neither of you sees fit to whine to the mods, there isn't a problem.

 

Considering that Thuban and the other mods are looking at this, I'd suggest taking a few deep, calming breaths, maybe waiting 24 hours, and then coming back. We've got good mods; something's sure to be sorted out.

My father has said before that friends are quicker to back stab you than your enemy. I have been hurt many times by a close friend and I put that stuff behind me more often than I should.

 

Anyway saying in theory it should lower how many people PM mods about it people are still going to either way. It's not going to stop. I said before make trade only mods to deal with it. Move all those trade threads into it's own section and make some mods that go around and deal with them. I myself would be happy to help.

[Thuban]

 

But in theory, this should result in LESS people going to the mods. Also, if you think about IOUs as carefully as I hope you do, you'll likely go to your friends for trades and IOUs. Friends are less likely to backstab you, in my experience. Still happens, but it's less likely. And as long as neither of you sees fit to whine to the mods, there isn't a problem.

 

Considering that Thuban and the other mods are looking at this, I'd suggest taking a few deep, calming breaths, maybe waiting 24 hours, and then coming back. We've got good mods; something's sure to be sorted out.

I always have my friends weigh in on names i dont recognize. Andi tend to trust them on their word. I know if i say someone is a good trader, and has been reliable, but they dont pay up, I make up for what was lost out of guilt. I know who i have had great experiences with, and who i havent. Friends are awesome for connections sometimes.

 

EDIT: hey guys.. speakeasy doesnt quite work here. We're not telling you you cant do ious.. you just cant do them /here/ in the official places. I think i have been encouraging you guys to take yer ious offsite more than anyone else here. I know at least one channel is set up on the irc, i know a few forums have set up their own things. Have fun, just keep your iou drama to yourselves if something goes wrong

 

However, i would like to add one really really important note here that has not been addressed: While we will not enforce iou trades that have gone badly, if you are being harrassed by a member either in pm, or in the chat, PLEASE make a report. It is not ok to harrass or bully people for not paying up on their end. It is not ok to set all your friends after someone to threaten them to pay up or else. While we will not force a trade to be completed, we WILL take harrassment issues that happen in PM here on the forum or in chat seriously. I do not tolerate bullying.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Thuban