Notice.

[reaperegg]

People take IOUs at their own risk they shouldnt go whining to the mods if someone is dishonest and mods shouldnt get involved! Just let those who know the risks do IOU`s!

[QAndais]

I'm a little stunned here.

 

Since I've came on dragcave and the corresponding forum. I have enjoyed trading for IOUs almost exclusively. It is almost 100% guarantee if I look a trade I want I normally will not have the requested egg/hatchling.

 

I take a sort of pride in having a so far perfect IOU score on both sides of the trade no matter how long it took.

 

At first when i looked at this Notice I saw no IOU and I just about lost my mind when I thought about not being able to trade with IOUs. After i calmed down I read it again and I read through the pages of this topic.

 

With all due respect to the mods I have to agree with most other people on this topic. Why take the IOUs out of the trade posts.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that the point of this notice was to reduce the number of people being scammed in an IOU and complaining that it was the Powers That Be's fault?

 

I'm sorry I sound a scattered about this but it blew me for a loop when i saw this thread. I feel somewhat lucky that most of my trades talks are done in PM anyways.

 

I do feel a little bit like we are adults being forced not to take risks that most off us happily take with our eyes wide open.

 

I do wish that the community as a whole had been asked about something like this because like others in this thread I feel as if the majority of IOU traders are being restricted because of a minority which have gotten tricked.

 

Usually people who get scammed too often or even once and no longer trust IOUs simply say so in their post or in reply to an IOU request.

Edited October 2, 2012 by QAndais

[sunsteps88]

I still .... gah, I respect all of you mods, each of you is completely amazing.. But I really don't like this D': Agreed with above(angelicdragonpuppy) and many many other posts, too many to quote.

 

 

Fact of the matter is, people will scam no matter what. This is just gonna make it worse when people DO do it.. And there's really nothing you can do except tell them to be more careful and all.

Edited October 2, 2012 by sunsteps88

[rubyshoes]

Alright, read through most of the thread before posting.

 

 

First off, I wanna say that I understand why the mods decided to do this, and that I respect their decision.

 

 

that said, however, I don't agree with this at all. Allowing IOUs to happen, just in signatures and through PMs, will likely not greatly reduce the amount of people complaining to the mods. People will still get scammed, and those people may still go and complain to the mods. Who will tell them the same thing they have been, since it's not officially endorsed.

 

 

I have a question

 

I know we can't say "Want: [breed] IOU" or something. However, can we say "Want: PM for details/see signature"? Or do we have to say "Want: [actual thing somebody could offer at this time], or PM/see siggy for mroe detaisl"?

 

Because if we're just allowed to say "Want: PM/see signature" and we can then advertise our IOUs in the signature... Well, it amounts to the exact same thing.

I'd prefer if trades had an actual want or a PM offers/see sig or wishlist message (which is used already).

[Sorrowgrave]

pfft.

 

I don't like this at all.

 

IOU's were always accept at your own risk.

 

I did one... last year I think for 50 Moonstones. I got the moonstones first, then I got the tinsel they were in return for. Took me three months into November but I did get all the people that I owed for the moonstones their tinsel eggs.

 

 

Well this takes the fun out of a lot of DC.

kind of like TJ promising that donators were NOT going to have any special perks

 

then making it so that they can pay to have adds removed.

 

Lame.

 

yeah, pretty much argeeing with the previous non mod posts.

 

I actually talk to a few mods, or have in the past. I understand you guys and girls are all human.

 

but a little heads up would of been nice!

Edited October 2, 2012 by Sorrowgrave

[Emeraldmay]

The existing wording of the guidelines/rule about IOUs was worked out with the admin of the site so I don't see that as working on this forum. IOUs are not an option of the game.

 

This is one of the things that annoys me most. IOU's - we can't force the other player to pay, therefore we should just ban it altogether? No. IOU's will still happen, even the rule that was set had loopholes for IOU's. IOUs come with trading. Even if you don't like them, they will come.

 

IOU's will not die out from this rule. They will keep on coming, even if they are behinds the mods backs, they will come. People will make them, people will break them. Instead of banning them, with loopholes, which seems to be eliminating the problem of people complaining to the mods more than the actual scamming, why not try tackling the scamming head on? IOU's are, and will remain an option, whether or not this site admits it.

 

Less scamming = less people complaining to mods. Instead of using soft engineering to avoid a problem that will still affect the site, why not use hard engineering to attempt to get rid of the problem once and for all?

 

Judging from Thuban's comment - I'm assuming it was the admin who had the final say, so it's more to him we should be appealing too? On another of Thuban's points - I'm sorry if you feel I'm 'mudslinging' you. That was not my intention, I was merely trying to show you my point of view, and I have no intention to cause anyone offence.

 

[bluebell_rose]

This is one of the things that annoys me most. IOU's - we can't force the other player to pay, therefore we should just ban it altogether? No. IOU's will still happen, even the rule that was set had loopholes for IOU's. IOUs come with trading. Even if you don't like them, they will come.

 

IOU's will not die out from this rule. They will keep on coming, even if they are behinds the mods backs, they will come. People will make them, people will break them. Instead of banning them, with loopholes, which seems to be eliminating the problem of people complaining to the mods more than the actual scamming, why not try tackling the scamming head on? IOU's are, and will remain an option, whether or not this site admits it.

 

Less scamming = less people complaining to mods. Instead of using soft engineering to avoid a problem that will still affect the site, why not use hard engineering to attempt to get rid of the problem once and for all?

 

Judging from Thuban's comment - I'm assuming it was the admin who had the final say, so it's more to him we should be appealing too? On another of Thuban's points - I'm sorry if you feel I'm 'mudslinging' you. That was not my intention, I was merely trying to show you my point of view, and I have no intention to cause anyone offence.

it feels like the mods are being ostriches lol

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well this takes the fun out of a lot of DC.

kind of like TJ promising that donators were NOT going to have any special perks

 

then making it so that they can pay to have adds removed.

 

Lame.

 

yeah, pretty much argeeing with the previous non mod posts.

 

I actually talk to a few mods, or have in the past. I understand you guys and girls are all human.

 

but a little heads up would of been nice!

TJ's said that the ads load after eggs/hatchlings, and thus don't actually affect gameplay at all. Plus, you can always use free adblockers, so paying for no ads is really just a fancy way of donating money, haha. (Or if you have speedy internet, ads or no ads doesn't matter anyway ^^)

[rubyshoes]

This is one of the things that annoys me most. IOU's - we can't force the other player to pay, therefore we should just ban it altogether? No. IOU's will still happen, even the rule that was set had loopholes for IOU's. IOUs come with trading. Even if you don't like them, they will come.

 

IOU's will not die out from this rule. They will keep on coming, even if they are behinds the mods backs, they will come. People will make them, people will break them. Instead of banning them, with loopholes, which seems to be eliminating the problem of people complaining to the mods more than the actual scamming, why not try tackling the scamming head on? IOU's are, and will remain an option, whether or not this site admits it.

 

Less scamming = less people complaining to mods. Instead of using soft engineering to avoid a problem that will still affect the site, why not use hard engineering to attempt to get rid of the problem once and for all?

 

Judging from Thuban's comment - I'm assuming it was the admin who had the final say, so it's more to him we should be appealing too? On another of Thuban's points - I'm sorry if you feel I'm 'mudslinging' you. That was not my intention, I was merely trying to show you my point of view, and I have no intention to cause anyone offence.

Remember that the part I quoted about IOUs is not a new rule. It has been around for a long time. The new part is about IOUs in posts which will be added to the guidelines after we think members have had enough time to see the notice.

[paradoxangel]

I was actually considering Thuban's suggestion before she suggested it, so...

 

Please have a look at my signature? It's better than nothing and maybe we can make it a formally informal system to get around this, at least for the holidays?

 

 

-thanks

paradoxangel

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Remember that the part I quoted about IOUs is not a new rule. It has been around for a long time. The new part is about IOUs in posts which will be added to the guidelines after we think members have had enough time to see the notice.

Instead of just repeatedly stating what you've already stated, can you actually respond to some of people's points against this?

 

I've seen many, many a valid point raised here, and none of you mods are addressing them at all. It's giving a lovely impression that your word is eternally the law and nothing us peasants can say will ever make you rethink your decisions. :/

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Thuban]

Ermmm............. shouldn't you have then argued for it to be allowed IN chat, if you disliked it so?

 

I still say that mods have every right to ignore/copy-paste reply to people whining about unfulfilled IOUs. It's pretty clear that they're not official, and if it's not clear enough, just STATE IT AGAIN, don't try to chase it off the forums.

 

There will always be people making IOUs. There will always be people whining to mods about them. The solution then is not to make IOUs require more back-door-ing to do, it's to come up with a more efficient way to turn away people who come crying to mods about them.

You say that like i didnt argue I've gotten myself in trouble many times by bringing it up, lol.

 

Ignoring users as a mod... wouldnt make me a very good mod now would it? Any problem brought to me, i will try to find a solution for. Iou debates.. when its people i know well, I have no problem taking them aside and talking to them. Sometimes its something easily resolved, others, not so much. Sometimes, I'm willing to pay off an iou someone else made because they arent able to do so themselves for whatever reason. I dont expect any mod to do that, I do that because as a person, thats who i am.

 

 

You seem to be saying the same things over and over, for the main purpose of stirring people up. I'm totally willing to argue for compromises for you guys (as i have been since this FIRST came up as an issue over a year ago, however, if im going to be attacked for trying to help, for trying to explain things, why should i even try? I've offered suggestions for what to do, I've offered help to accomplish giving you guys a place to go. I've offered explinations, and have done what i can. The forum isnt somewhere i really like to be, for this exact reason. So, if your willing to slow down, and actually read some of my posts for more than just mud to throw in my face, im willing to sit down and try to find some way to compromise. I'm captain neutral here, I enjoy being on the fence and finding ways to make things work. But people have to be willing to work with me. I understand being really upset, i went through it myself when MY main source of trading went away. I get where you guys are coming from, but attacking the staff and trying to cause a riot is not how to go about getting yourselves heard.

 

 

To add onto one of my earlier posts.. a user has created a channel for anyone who actually wants to use it. #IOUTrades <~~~im sure para will be needing some volenteers for mods. You now have a place to go.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Thuban

[DragonNighthowler]

In that case, i'm boycotting breeding my hollies this year. Why the heck should I breed if I'm only allowed an hour to 24 hour holding time to find a trade? I have nearly everything so nothing really interests me on the site. So what's the point?

Making other people happy seems like a pretty good point for breeding something as rare and desirable as hollies. Boycotting the holly breeding will not affect mod's choice one bit.

The only ones affected by your choice would be third party users that had nothing to do with this and might not even know what's going on.

 

I don't have an opinion on the whole topic. I frankly do not see things as dramatic as some, it will be done behind the screen and end of story. People will still trade IOUs the only difference being they won't be posted as; "I want a silver IOU from X lineage". A simple "I want a silver from X lineage" would suffice and if the interested party can provide, it would be done through PM. After all, it is how it was always done. I seldom ask for IOUs or offer IOUs, but on the rare occasion I've done it, I've taken it always to PM, so I don't think there will be much of a difference.

 

On another instance, if the whole thing is about moderators being pestered by users about certain things, this will do nothing to avoid that. I've moderated for years in another forum, we tried to make neutral approaches on certain topics, and in the end, the only solution was prohibiting all together and persecuting those who broke the rules. There was no other solution to a matter which was similar in content to this one.

 

We will see how things turn out with this.

[rayden54]

I was actually considering Thuban's suggestion before she suggested it, so...

 

Please have a look at my signature? It's better than nothing and maybe we can make it a formally informal system to get around this, at least for the holidays?

 

 

-thanks

paradoxangel

I don't use IRC so this doesn't help me any. Even if I did, it still requires both parties to be online at the same time (which is often a pain).

[angelicdragonpuppy]

You say that like i didnt argue I've gotten myself in trouble many times by bringing it up, lol.

 

Ignoring users as a mod... wouldnt make me a very good mod now would it? Any problem brought to me, i will try to find a solution for. Iou debates.. when its people i know well, I have no problem taking them aside and talking to them. Sometimes its something easily resolved, others, not so much. Sometimes, I'm willing to pay off an iou someone else made because they arent able to do so themselves for whatever reason. I dont expect any mod to do that, I do that because as a person, thats who i am.

 

 

You seem to be saying the same things over and over, for the main purpose of stirring people up. I'm totally willing to argue for compromises for you guys (as i have been since this FIRST came up as an issue over a year ago, however, if im going to be attacked for trying to help, for trying to explain things, why should i even try? I've offered suggestions for what to do, I've offered help to accomplish giving you guys a place to go. I've offered explinations, and have done what i can. The forum isnt somewhere i really like to be, for this exact reason. So, if your willing to slow down, and actually read some of my posts for more than just mud to throw in my face, im willing to sit down and try to find some way to compromise. I'm captain neutral here, I enjoy being on the fence and finding ways to make things work. But people have to be willing to work with me. I understand being really upset, i went through it myself when MY main source of trading went away. I get where you guys are coming from, but attacking the staff and trying to cause a riot is not how to go about getting yourselves heard.

Then please, tell us how we might be heard better.

 

I have read everything you've said. And I still have concerns and suggestions that, so far as I can see, aren't being paid attention to at all by the forum mods--it doesn't look like ANYONE'S points are being addressed by the forum mods, actually.

 

If you don't want to turn someone away, just tell them some version of "IOUs aren't official parts of gameplay so there is nothing I can do to help you, unfortunately." The point is that you are hindering something that works fine for the majority of players because some people are complaining to you about something you can do nothing about. Which stinks, but think about it--if the only thing being done is that IOUs are moved to PMs/sigs, do you think the clueless pleas for help will go away?

 

No, no they will not. However, a quick and convenient way for the rest of us to do IOUs WILL go away.

[rubyshoes]

Instead of just repeatedly stating what you've already stated, can you actually respond to some of people's points against this?

 

I've seen many, many a valid point raised here, and none of you mods are addressing them at all. It's giving a lovely impression that your word is eternally the law and nothing us peasants can say will ever make you rethink your decisions. :/

IOUs are not part an option of the game. The existing rule was made as we as mods/forum/dc are not responsible for IOUs being fulfilled.

 

 

Insulting isn't a valid point.

 

I don't wont to shoot down valid ideas/points - only those that I don't think will work. A thread with blacklists/listing IOUs etc will not work with the existing guidelines.

Edited October 2, 2012 by rubyshoes

[Emeraldmay]

Remember that the part I quoted about IOUs is not a new rule. It has been around for a long time. The new part is about IOUs in posts which will be added to the guidelines after we think members have had enough time to see the notice.

Yes, that rule seemed perfectly valid when the site seemed to be coping with the IOU's that were going through it.

 

The introduction of this rule though, is showing that there is a problem. My main problem with this rule is that you are solving a problem of scamming - the PM's to mods, rather than stopping the whole problem. Using my previous analogy - soft engineering or damage limitation - won't make the problem go away. It will reduce the effects, true, but it will leave people who did take the risk, and did get scammed completely helpless.

 

I know now, if you get scammed and PM a mod, they can't help you. At least you get a kind person saying it to you in a nice way, not a few brief words in a rule book. Now, it just seems like the site's tried to stop people PM'ing the mods, not stop people getting scammed.

[Kara Wolf]

I can see where you need to enforce that IOU'ing is a user taken risk but this rather bites. As I use this to get anything more rare then uncommons as well as working out holiday breeding. My scroll bites for trading what I need. :/

[gistofeverything]

Arguing and insulting aren't valid points.

I apologize if I insulted you, Ruby... Forgive me? D:

[rayden54]

IOUs are not part an option of the game. The existing rule was made as we as mods/forum/dc are not responsible for IOUs being fulfilled.

 

 

Arguing and insulting aren't valid points.

 

I don't wont to shoot down valid ideas/points - only those that I don't think will work. A thread with blacklists/listing IOUs etc will not work with the existing guidelines.

We're not asking you to fulfill IOUs, and we're not asking you to tell us the rules. We're asking you to change the rule.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Arguing and insulting aren't valid points.

I've seen very little insulting or arguing. Raising good points about why you dislike something is called having a discussion, not arguing. You're doing something that, as you can see, a lot of people are upset with. We're voicing our opinions. If that's now considered arguing then, um...

 

Thu, I also don't appreciate being treated like I'm some sort of angry mob leader. I just think this suggestion is really, really dumb. I keep bringing up the same points because they don't seem to be being addressed and/or new people are coming in and I'm agreeing with them or showing them why people are upset with it.

 

I'm not in here screaming DEATH 2 MODS!!1! or just leaving "LAME/STUPID/DUMB" comments. Everything I've posted has had at least some thinking put into it. I have the right to say my mind and I will keep doing so until this thread is closed or things are changed.

Edited October 2, 2012 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Lady Artemis]

Sorry if this has already been answered (I've been lurking around for a while but I'm still not sure,) but can we have a list of who owes us what and what we owe other people in our profile?

[bluebell_rose]

Making other people happy seems like a pretty good point for breeding something as rare and desirable as hollies. Boycotting the holly breeding will not affect mod's choice one bit.

The only ones affected by your choice would be third party users that had nothing to do with this and might not even know what's going on.

 

actually when you've gifted hollies to friends who end up backstabbing you, you tend to stop gifting hollies and turn mercenary and get the most out of the deal. I would rather trade my holly for something worth it than gift it to a backstabber. Since I don't find it worth my while with this new iou thing, i'm going to boycott breeding my hollies. Simpler and protects myself

Edited October 2, 2012 by bluebell_rose

[rubyshoes]

We're not asking you to fulfill IOUs, and we're not asking you to tell us the rules. We're asking you to change the rule.

If you wish for IOUs to be part of the game only TJ could do that. IOUs are not a built in option.

[gistofeverything]

I see a TJ lurking around. Shall he say something?